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If Ned+Ashara= Jon, was Jon unwanted in Dorne?


Angel Eyes

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3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The point being is that Eddard specifically says that he hadn’t thought of Rhaegar in years.  Which seems odd, if in fact Eddard was raising Rhaegar’s son.

No, Eddard specifically says,

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For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.

It is a misquote to say that he hadn't thought of Rhaegar in years; and as I (and many others) have shown, he thinks of Rhaegar in his previous POV chapter. Therefore, it is clear you should not interpret "remember" as "think."

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

When if the entire premise of the R + L = J theory is correct, Eddard has to be living with the fear of Robert’s threat to Jon, all the time.  Yet that doesn’t appear to be the case:

R+L=J easily (and IMO is the only theory that) explains why Ned kept Jon's mother a secret: telling the truth puts Jon in danger.

 

You say that Ned isn't afraid of Robert coming to Winterfell and by implication, Ned isn't afraid of Robert seeing Jon, which seems to weaken a major point of R+L=J.

 

Well, why would Ned be afraid? Jon looks just like him. So Ned isn't afraid of Robert seeing Jon, but Ned still isn't going to spill the beans.

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

In fact he specifically seems to believe that Robert is no threat to him or his family, and by family I would have to include Jon:

Interestingly, later on, Ned realizes he is mistaken about Robert. Ned thinks that Robert's hatred of Rhaegar has subsided, and Ned is shocked to discover that the hatred is still there:

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Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion...

As I said, Ned wasn't going to spill the beans to Robert regardless, but under R+L=J, Eddard VIII is a painful reminder to Ned of why he had to keep Jon's mom a secret.

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On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

Except its not true. The secret to successful lying is to tell lies that can be controlled, that you understand completely. This is not a controllable lie.

It is, Ned is giving a common name and baseborn woman, it's simply and easily trackeable. Hence why no one had ever suspected about the truth.

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

Its clear you didn't read what I wrote, only the passage again with your own pre-formed conclusions. 
Because you didn't even start addressing a single element of the argument, just repeated your conclusions.

Robert is not thinking of the identity "Jon's mother". He is thinking of a person (whom he believes holds that identity, among many others) Robert is thinking of the identity 'that saucy wench that was so hot she cause Ned frikken Stark's honour to slip'. Thats who he asked about. He told Ned, not asked him, that that identity was Jon's mother.

Ned answered only with the name of the woman Robert is thinking of, which is the precise information he's told Robert before.

 Again, i did read it, you're just wrong, Robert himself is telling what's he's thinking on. 

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"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"
"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."
"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"

It's clear as day but you refuse to believe it, Robert asks about Jon's mother and says that Ned told him once, he even  specifies it. He is not asking Ned if that's Jon's mother because Ned had already told him once she was.  Why would he ask something he knows??

Your entire argument is a circular one, because is based on the fact that Ned never told Robert  Wylla's name as Jon's mother... When Robert himself is saying that Ned in fact did it. Even if we're to believe that Ned was playing 4D chess with Robert, and he wasn't, there is no reason to believe that Ned didn't tell him Wylla was Jon's mother, or the name of Jon's mother.As long as it wasn't Lyanna Ned could've said pretty much any name.

 

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

Indeed. Thats part of my point, Robert already knows this womans name. He's just forgotten. He already "knows" she's Jon's mother. He never asks that part, he tells it. The only thing he's asking is the thing he's forgotten, the name.
Which oddly enough, is the only thing Ned answers. "Her name was Wylla. And I would sooner not talk of her".

Doesn't seem to be, because in up here, you say that Robert is not thinking on Jon's mother but someone Ned banged and odly enough he confused her with Jon's mother?? 

 

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

Who knows. Its not a risk Ned can take. There is a lot at stake here.

That's why saying a random name of a commoner suits, no one is going look and even if someone is bored enough to do so, he's no going ot find anything.

It's a risk Ned can take, since he's just saying   a commoner's name and because he's telling it to Robert who would take it as facd value... As anyone did.

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

Its not like finding a John across USA and Europe at all. Wylla is a known person, not in hiding, with a partially known history. She's actually currently in a location of interest thats relevant, openly.
If anyone was interested, for any reason, or just connected some dots, its very very easy to track this down.

It is. Wylla and baseborn is all Ned gives, for all we know, the Fisherman's daughter name was Wylla. Starfall Wylla is just one rumour more among many.

 

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

The only people we've seen discuss it are Ned, Robert and Edric. 
And Arya. And Harwin most like (he overheard other parts of the conversation). Probably Allyria Dayne. Possibly others around Wylla or Edric. Who knows how many people in or around Starfall or who actually saw Wylla nursing Jon - at Starfall or elsewhere travelling or even at Winterfell. And anyone any of those people talked to. And...
Jeez. Its a big crowd all of a sudden...

Its mind-bogglig that anyone could deny this is a dangerously unstable lie if Ned makes it.

Perhaps because at any point Ned said that Jon's mother was wetnurse Wylla?? Ned only said what her name was, he didn't told where was she from, her age, or if she had a pretty smile.

But I'm not playing ad conditionalis, if wetnurse was any threat we'd know, but she's not treated any different than Ashara or the Fisherman's daughter, one local rumour amongst others and not the most popular anyway, Ashara obviously steals the spotlight.

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

Because its the only man (or one of two - Jon Arryn) he truly trusts entirely in the world lying to him.
Because if Ned is lying about this, whats he hiding?
Because Ned came back from his southern trip with a bastard whom he's lying about, and found Lyanna on that trip...

So, that's why Robert would act like a jealous boyfriend, for really no reason, and start digging on Ned's story??  Robert more than anyone would accept that Ned had a fling with a hot commoner and let it be.  As it happened, people took Ned on his word, which makes sense, no one is looking for a commoner.

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

Ned doesn't 'satisfy' Robert when we see. He shuts him down hard, angrily, despite Robert not taking the first hint.

I'm supplying a scenario that fits with all the facts and makes everything work - Robert came to that first conversation with pre-formed ideas from a report about Ned's trip to Starfall, and in a parallel to the conversation we saw he jumped to his own conclusion while Ned said as little as possible and didn't lie.
Heck, as I've said before, should Robert have had such a preconceived idea, Ned could actually deny it outright (I wouldn't expect him to) and it would only act as confirmation for Robert!

He tells him the name in both times. I'd say that's enough.

No, your supplying a scenario that fits your circular logic and even your parallel it's a circular logic from the first one. You disagree with the idea that Ned told him the name, which is just a fact, and invent an scenario in which Ned didn't really tll him the name

But there is no reason to believe that Ned didn't say a random name of a commoner and left. Because according to Robert., that's pretty much what he did.

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

When do we ever see Ned being protective of the name Wylla? When it comes up relevently Ned gives it freely, even as we see him shut down the conversation. In no other conversation with Ned does Wylla come up. So yes, he's not protective of the name, 100% of the times it comes up he has no problem saying the woman's name. 
 Jon;'s mother though... He huts down those conversations hard every time, very protective of relevant details.

 

Wylla, Ashara or Cat, are all fake, so what's the matter?? Ned can't hunt down Robert, he's both his best friend and his King, so he gives him a name and then shuts down the conversation.  

 

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

Starfall is not confined. Starfall has people, which travel. They are not nailed down there. Starfall is at Blackhaven and who knows where else?
And its not just Starfall. What about wherever Wylla was around Jon's conception? What if she was at Godsgrace, or Nightsong, or Harvest Hall?

And yet how many people we've seen talk about a girl name Wylla who happens to be Jon's other?? Robert and the Neds.

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

Thats not 'a' Wylla, its 'the' Wylla, Jon Snow's wetnurse, the woman Robert thinks is Ned's bastard's mother.
This is not a random nameless nobody who can't be found. This is a specific person with a specific history who isn't hiding and is still 'at the scene' openly, so to speak.

This is your preconceived idea. Robert doesn't even know what she looked like, we don't have a reason to believe Ned told him more. 

We don't have a reason to believe Robert thought wetnurse Wylla was Jon's mother... because she was named Wylla.

 

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

I don;t think thats remotely credible. There are very few credible stories about Jon's mother. There are very few Wylla's that are intimately connected to Jon Snows early infancy.

There are very few credibles stories about Jon's mother to the readers, not so much for the characters. There are very few Wylla's intimately connected to Jon's early infancy to the readers, not so much for the characters. Edric's story is as likely as his claim of Ashara and Ned being a thing.

 

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

Yeah, right. And Ned was banging Wylla while he was a thing with Ashara. Ned the never-the-boy-you-were, the that-one-time man, the didn't-take-his-pleasures man.
Starfall knows a few small details about Ned's visit there and gossips about more.

For which is the more unlikely that any gossip from Starfall are going to be believed, if ever a gossip came out of there

 

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

Its very relevant if Ned is lying to Robert about it.

There is no reason to believe that on the first place.

 

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

So it doesn't need to be lied about. Especially to Robert, who of all people would (does!) understand and even delight in a Ned slip-up with a commoner
Unless it really was a noblewoman... Two nobles, one of whom is a Stark. Neds blood.

Then you do understand why Robert would take the story at face value right?? Robert, of all people, is not going to suspect anything.

 

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

Ahh. So there are multiple Wylla's? Coincidentally both Starfall and Robert independently think a Wylla is Jon' mother but its not actually the same Wylla?
I'll just leave that lying there for people to judge themselves.

All we know that Ned told Robert is the name Wylla.
We also know that somehow Robert thinks Wylla is a commoner and Jon's mother.
Somehow Starfall also thinks Wylla is a commoner and Jon's mother. <s>But Starfall and Robert's information in not nohow anyway related. Its not even the same Wylla! </s>
And Robert would not, nohow, anyway, ever hear a report about Ned's visit at Starfall where he return the sword of the mysteriously missing Arthur Dayne.

We know that Ned told Robert that Jon's mother's name was Wylla and she was a commoner, so yes, there might be thousands of Wyllas who fit in that description.    Yes, wetnurse Wylla fit in the criteria, so what?? That's why i told you that as long as Ned only gace the name, he has no reason to worry about. We readers might have the hindsight to collect the puzze, but there is no reason to assume any character has, as far as any character might see, wetnurse Wylla story is as true or false than the Fisherman's daughter story. If  i told you that my favourite character is a Targ King is someone named Daeron, the pool is too empty, but if i told that my favourite character was a noble northman named Cregan or Torrhen or Brandon. how many do you think there are??  What if i told you that my favourite character is a northman named Brandon, how many Brandons and northman you could find??  If i told you that i fell for a black haired girl whose name was Mary and you know that i've been travelling through Usa, Europe, Africa and Australia... Do you honestly believe you're going to find whether i lied or not?? Especially if you don't really care much from the beginning??

Don't really know, don't really care, don't really matter if there a multiples Wyllas, when in reality no one is the mother. Ned gave two clues as far as we know, a name and her birth. And with that it's just impossible to find out any truth.  Wetnurse Wylla is as likely as Stony sept Wylla, or Eyrie Wylla or or or or or. That's why if it's common girl, no one really asks and no one really cares.

 

He would receive a report from Ned himself, likely with the news of Lyanna's death. I mean, whose better to give it?? 

 

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

Its the only conclusion available from the argument you are making.

Robert doesn't know where the KG are, so the reports he's getting first and foremost are from you know, the other leaders of his army, but Robert does not know as far as we know, what Ned was doing in Dorne nor would he really care. If Robert got reports from the events of the ToJ would not be from Varys.

 

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

That doesn't mean there wouldn't be such a report. Nor would Robert be the only one hearing about it.

Heck, don't forget, this is the Ned that left in a rage with Robert. They aren't friends at this time. Ned's left Robert in a rage, estranged. It isn't until after Ned comes back, after Starfall and makes up with Robert over Lyanna's death, that they are truly friends again. 

I don't rely on it, but I expect Robert was extremely interested in any report about what Ned was doing in the south at this time.

That doesn't mean it's more likely than an army commander, someone had to pull down that damn tower, wrote than Varys because he's Varys.

Ned and Robert are not friends, but they are leaders of the rebellion and have to keep in contact,  either Ned wrote it or someone did for him. Varys is as likely as Littlefinger starting the Robelliom because chaos is a ladder.

 

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

No it does not. It means that Varys gathers information from those places, among others. That he gathers reports from such places from people passing through them, from low level and high level (as he can) people who are in those places. Probably also when he can from other networks who do have people in those places. 
This is precisely his job. Which (with his head) is precarious at this time and needs to be performed in exemplary fashion. 

And i agree but there is still no reason to believe he had any spies in Starfall, since as far as we know, the rumour never came out. As far as we know, Varys works primarily with spies, his spies hear things her and there and then they report to him. To gather nfo from Starfall he'd need either spies within or be just dumb lucky.

 

 

On 1/17/2020 at 2:19 AM, corbon said:

Except that there are major problems with that scenario. And none at all with mine.
Either remain possible at this stage. But one has huge issues and doesn't fit with the things we see. The other has no issues and fist perfectly.  Wit the current information we have, I'm running with the one that fits.

There are no problems with it, you just don't like it. Canon is canon either way, we're told what Robert knew and who told him.  You don't like the idea and believe that "there are any problem with your headcanon", it's entirely your call but it's still headcanon.

 

 

 

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What a heated debate! I wonder how some people in this forum will deal with their theory being proven wrong by WOW. I recommend to keep doors open, not to shut them close. We are arguing and assuming here. Some theories are impossible, some theories are possible but more or less probable. I still adhere to R+L=J, but I wouldn't throw myself from a tower if WOW will show that I was wrong.

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13 hours ago, lehutin said:

It is a misquote to say that he hadn't thought of Rhaegar in years; and as I (and many others) have shown, he thinks of Rhaegar in his previous POV chapter. Therefore, it is clear you should not interpret "remember" as "think."

:lmao:

I really think you guys are just trolling me now.

13 hours ago, lehutin said:

You say that Ned isn't afraid of Robert coming to Winterfell and by implication, Ned isn't afraid of Robert seeing Jon, which seems to weaken a major point of R+L=J.

 

Well, why would Ned be afraid? Jon looks just like him. So Ned isn't afraid of Robert seeing Jon, but Ned still isn't going to spill the beans.

Well Jon probably looks a lot like Lyanna as well.  And of course Ned assumes that he’s coming up to make him the Hand, but he doesn’t really know that for sure.  If Ned goes to such pains to lie about being Jon’s biological father and giving Jon a false identity and keeping him protected up in Winterfell, solely to keep Jon safe from Robert’s retribution, than it seems very odd that Robert coming up to Winterfell unexpectedly for the first time ever wouldn’t give Ned cause for concern.  Yet there is zero evidence of that.  Zilch.  

As has been discussed many times before, it really shouldn’t be that hard to at least be suspicious that Jon could be Lyanna’s child, after all Robert seems pretty convinced that Rhaegar and Lyanna copulated quite a bit before her death.  And of course there is always the spymaster Varys, so it doesn’t seem that Ned could be terribly comfortable that Jon’s secret could never be revealed.

Yet Robert’s sudden visit to Winterfell doesn’t bother Eddard in the least, other than Eddard having to make preparations to host such a large event.  Something that makes me go hmmm.

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13 hours ago, lehutin said:

R+L=J easily (and IMO is the only theory that) explains why Ned kept Jon's mother a secret: telling the truth puts Jon in danger.

I mean that’s your basic problem, you have blinders on and it’s keeping you (and many others) from acknowledging any discrepancies from that theory that pop up in the story.

Now, I’m not saying any of these discrepancies necessarily disprove the idea that Rhaegar is Jon’s father, I don’t think any quite rise to that level.  And I would put Rhaegar being Jon’s father as one of the top two possibilities (maybe top 3) as to Jon’s parentage.  It’s suspicious to me, however, how much the author is steering us toward this conclusion, even if the steering is fairly subtle (or not so subtle according to some).  

But as I’ve brought up, Ned never really acts like he believes that Robert constitutes a threat to him or his family.  He never thinks it, and he never acts or reacts in ways that are consistent that he believe it.  He certainly believes that Robert would be a threat to Cersei’s children, and reacts accordingly.  

But the only person that Ned thinks about being a potential threat to Jon, isn’t Robert, it’s Cat:

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Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?  Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body?   He did not know.  He prayed he never would.

The most heated Ned gets is when Cat confronts him with the idea of Ashara being Jon’s mother.  While Ned keeps Jon’s secret from everyone, Ned’s reaction to Cat might be an indication that the person he is most concerned from learning Jon’s identity is Cat.

There is only one parentage possibility (however unseemly) that would affect Cat more so than anyone else, and make Jon even more of a threat to her children than he would be as Ned’s biological son.

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3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I really think you guys are just trolling me now.

Not at all. You misquoted Eddard IX. You claimed that the line specifically says that Ned "hadn’t thought of Rhaegar in years." But that's not what the line says. The line says,

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For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.

GRRM used the word "remembering," not the word "thinking." And this isn't grasping at straws or playing semantics either, because in Eddard VIII (the previous Ned POV chapter), there is the line,

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Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen.

So as I (and many, many others long before me) have said, Ned "thinks" of Rhaegar in back-to-back chapters, Eddard VIII and IX. Therefore, you should not interpret "he hadn't remembered Rhaegar in years" in Eddard IX to mean "he hadn't thought of Rhaegar in years" because Ned thought of Rhaegar in Eddard VIII.

 

Of course this in and of itself doesn't prove R+L=J. But misquoting and misinterpreting the Eddard IX "remembering" line is not an argument against R+L=J either.

 

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Ned goes to such pains to lie about being Jon’s biological father and giving Jon a false identity and keeping him protected up in Winterfell, solely to keep Jon safe from Robert’s retribution, than it seems very odd that Robert coming up to Winterfell unexpectedly for the first time ever wouldn’t give Ned cause for concern.

Again, why would it? You start off by saying that Jon probably looks like Lyanna. I agree.

 

But then you don't develop the argument any further and just rehash what you wrote previously. Are you suggesting that Ned should be afraid that Robert might think, "huh, Ned's bastard son looks an awful lot like Lyanna...hmm...is he Rhaegar's son?" It seems like you might be based on this:

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

As has been discussed many times before, it really shouldn’t be that hard to at least be suspicious that Jon could be Lyanna’s child, after all Robert seems pretty convinced that Rhaegar and Lyanna copulated quite a bit before her death.

But no one in-universe ever voices the suspicion that Jon's strong Stark features may actually come from his mother. In fact, we explicitly know from Tyrion's POV that Tyrion thinks the opposite:

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Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

So you're kinda sorta insinuating that Ned should be afraid that Robert might think Jon is Lyanna's son, but no character ever thinks or says that in the books. 

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3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I mean that’s your basic problem, you have blinders on and it’s keeping you (and many others) from acknowledging any discrepancies from that theory that pop up in the story.

I'm always up to discuss any alternative theory of Jon's parentage. My conclusion is that they all collapse once you start thinking about them and their implications. N+A=J and B+A=J simply can't answer "why the need for secrecy?" There's either some vague appeal to Ned wanting to "protect" Ashara from something that's never fully explained, or some headcanon-concocted secret marriage which makes Jon the rightful heir to Winterfell and Ned Stark either a bigamist or a POS uncle.

 

And you haven't brought up any discrepancies. You've misquoted and misinterpreted a line from Eddard IX. This is an old argument that was debunked long before I ever picked up AGOT for the first time. It's simply false that Ned hadn't "thought" of Rhaegar in years. GRRM didn't use the word "thinking" in reference to Rhaegar in Eddard VIII + IX; GRRM used the words "recalling" and "remembering."

 

You've argued that R+L=J implies that Ned should be scared to death of Robert visiting Winterfell and seeing Jon. I acknowledge this is a fair line of thinking. But your argument assumes that Robert would or should have suspected that Jon might be Lyanna's son, which no one in the series ever suspects openly.

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1 minute ago, lehutin said:

And you haven't brought up any discrepancies. You've misquoted and misinterpreted a line from Eddard IX. This is an old argument that was debunked long before I ever picked up AGOT for the first time. It's simply false that Ned hadn't "thought" of Rhaegar in years. GRRM didn't use the word "thinking" in reference to Rhaegar in Eddard VIII + IX; GRRM used the words "recalling" and "remembering."

Seriously, this is a distinction without meaning.

 

1 minute ago, lehutin said:

You've argued that R+L=J implies that Ned should be scared to death of Robert visiting Winterfell and seeing Jon. I acknowledge this is a fair line of thinking. But your argument assumes that Robert would or should have suspected that Jon might be Lyanna's son, which no one in the series ever suspects openly.

The problem is assuming that Ned could so easily become complacent on the idea that no one could ever make the connection.  If Ned truly thinks that Robert would harm Jon (and thus risk open warfare with Winterfell) if Robert found out Eddard's secret, then Robert making a surprise visit to Winterfell should cause Ned some concern.  But there is no evidence of that.  

So when George wrote the passage, describing Ned's reaction to Robert coming to Winterfell, George would have had to have written the passage keeping in mind that Ned was hiding Jon from Robert specifically.  The fact that Ned's reaction to Robert coming to Winterfell seems to be a wholly positive one is telling.  Now how significant you want to make this is up to you.  I personally find it ... interesting.

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22 minutes ago, lehutin said:

I'm always up to discuss any alternative theory of Jon's parentage. My conclusion is that they all collapse once you start thinking about them and their implications. N+A=J and B+A=J simply can't answer "why the need for secrecy?" There's either some vague appeal to Ned wanting to "protect" Ashara from something that's never fully explained, or some headcanon-concocted secret marriage which makes Jon the rightful heir to Winterfell and Ned Stark either a bigamist or a POS uncle.

I don't seriously subscribe to any theory that involves anyone other than Lyanna as  Jon's mother.  Even though I do admit that it would be somewhat amusing if we find out that Jon is Ned's child by Wylla all along. 

Having said that, if in fact Ashara's death was staged, and if in fact House Dayne may have named Edric in honor of Ned I think there may have been some secrets being kept in Starfall that Ned may have been privy to.   Now how intertwined this is with Jon's birth, :dunno:.   If Ned retrieved Jon from the tower of joy, I do think it's interesting that he would have brought the wee babe to Starfall castle.  It implies a level of trust with House Dayne that probably shouldn't have existed.

I just find that there are a lot of questions that the traditional R + L = J narrative doesn't answer very neatly.  

I personally find that there are three main possibilities for Jon's parentage, of course the likelihood of some of those possibilities lay in when Jon was born, and as a result just what Ned's mission was in travelling to the tower of joy (notably only accompanied by northmen) and just what Ned found there.  I think the tower of joy may have had a more sinister purpose than a honeymoon retreat/nursery for Lyanna and child.

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18 hours ago, corbon said:

Well, thats explicitly against the literal recollection she has.
I know that people can be unreliable witnesses, even inside their own heads (eg the unkiss). But we need more (outside) evidence to actually go against someones internal thoughts (eg another witness or seeing it for ourselves).

I think the primary evidence is what a stone cold bitch Cat is when it comes to Jon.  The fact that Catelyn would have demurly asked Ned about whether Ashara was the mother of Ned's love child seems suspect.  As is the fact that only Ned would have had an interest in quashing all talk of Ashara Dayne in Winterfell.  After all when Harwin hesitantly discusses Ashara with Arya he ends with:

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"Let it lie, my lady.  They're dead, all of them.  Let it lie ... and please, when we come to Riverrun, say naught of this to your mother."

 

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Seriously, this is a distinction without meaning.

True or False: In book time, only a few hours separated Ned's "suddenly, uncomfortably recalling" Rhaegar in Eddard VIII from Ned's "remembering" Rhaegar "for the first time in years" in Eddard IX.

 

If you answer False, then you're the one trolling others, not the one being trolled.

 

If you answer True, then you must admit that you can't interpret Eddard IX to mean that Ned hadn't thought of Rhaegar in years. Ned literally thought of Rhaegar a few hours earlier in Eddard VIII.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

The problem is assuming that Ned could so easily become complacent on the idea that no one could ever make the connection. 

It's "public knowledge" that Jon is Ned's bastard son. As Cat painfully notes, Ned called Jon son "for all the north to see."

 

So if "honorable" Ned Stark says "this is my son," who in-universe is going to doubt him? As we've seen so far, nobody. People think it's Ned and Ashara, Ned and Wylla, Ned and the Fisherman's Daughter. Nobody in-universe ever suspects that maybe Jon's strong Stark features come from his mother. Even an observant character like Tyrion thinks Jon has no signs of his mother's heritage.

 

So if the weakest part of R+L=J is that it implies Ned Stark was never afraid that people in-universe might suspect Jon's Starkness comes from Lyanna - something that no character in-universe is ever noted as suspecting - and you think Ned Stark should've been afraid of this, uh, ok, I guess.

 

Lastly, if you largely accept that Lyanna is Jon's mother, then really, Rhaegar is the only candidate for father that makes any sense. Any other option turns ASOIAF into a third-rate soap opera with the secret surprise parents trope.

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