Septa Lemore

[LadyBlackwater]

Okay folks, what’s up with the Lady/Selta Lemore? Is she someone from the past or is she simply a septa as she says? Could she be the mother of a sand snake? Tyenes Mother was supposedly a Septa, right? This has me scratching my head. GRRM is SO good at throwing out red herrings I don’t know what I’m watching out for anymore!!

[Loge]

50 minutes ago, LadyBlackwater said:

Okay folks, what’s up with the Lady/Selta Lemore? Is she someone from the past or is she simply a septa as she says? Could she be the mother of a sand snake? Tyenes Mother was supposedly a Septa, right? This has me scratching my head. GRRM is SO good at throwing out red herrings I don’t know what I’m watching out for anymore!!

She has to be important in some way or GRRM wouldn't have introduced her. She could be Ashara Dayne. 

[SFDanny]

I believe she is the Lady Ashara Dayne. Much of my thoughts on the subject are in the topic entitled "Ashara, Post Harrenhal possibilities" that is linked in my postscript. If you don't wish to read the entire post, let me quote the most important part of it relative to Septa Lemore's identity. 

Quote

But here I end my speculation, but to restate the main reason I think Ashara is alive and working for Varys in the guise of Septa Lemore. It is not only that Septa admits to living a life in which she remains hidden. It is also because Varys and Illyrio have hatched this plot they have nursed for some seventeen years that all depend on Targaryen loyalists believing the tale of the Pisswater Prince and that this is indeed Rhaegar's son comeback to them to restore the "rightful king" to the Iron Throne. I again submit that the testimony of Varys and Illyrio is incapable of persuading the loyalists to rebellion. Aegon's identity must be confirm by someone who they believe. But the Lord Jon Connington cannot be that person. He is known to have lived the first five years of his exile as a sellsword. Not nursing a young infant into childhood. An unknown Septa could have done this, but again no one would have reason to believe her. But Ashara Dayne would be believed by the Prince of Dorne and every hidden royalist in the Seven Kingdoms. She alone can provide the testimony that makes Aegon's identity believable. So, I think there is very good reason to believe it is Ashara who is hiding her identity on that riverboat along with Young Griff and company. 

 

[corbon]

7 hours ago, LadyBlackwater said:

Okay folks, what’s up with the Lady/Selta Lemore? Is she someone from the past or is she simply a septa as she says?

Yes, she's someone important.

Quote

Septa Lemore laughed. Like everyone else aboard the Shy Maid, she had her secrets. She was welcome to them. I do not want to know her, I only want to fuck her. She knew it too. As she hung her septa's crystal about her neck, to nestle in the cleft between her breasts, she teased him with a smile.

Tyrion thinks she has secrets, he's just distractedly horny and dismisses her secrets because of that.

Quote

Young Griff gave his father a stubborn look. "Lemore knows where her cabin is. I want to stay."

"We are sworn to protect you," Lemore said softly.

"I don't need to be protected. I can use a sword as well as Duck. I'm half a knight."

She's not just a Septa, a teacher, a hired hand, she's sworn to protect fAegon.

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"Even the bravest of your forebears kept his Kingsguard close about him in times of peril." Lemore had changed out of her septa's robes into garb more befitting the wife or daughter of a prosperous merchant. Tyrion watched her closely. He had sniffed out the truth beneath the dyed blue hair of Griff and Young Griff easily enough, and Yandry and Ysilla seemed to be no more than they claimed to be, whilst Duck was somewhat less. Lemore, though … Who is she, really? Why is she here? Not for gold, I'd judge. What is this prince to her? Was she ever a true septa?

Haldon took note of her change of garb as well. "What are we to make of this sudden loss of faith? I preferred you in your septa's robes, Lemore."

"I preferred her naked," said Tyrion.

Lemore gave him a reproachful look. "That is because you have a wicked soul. Septa's robes scream of Westeros and might draw unwelcome eyes onto us." She turned back to Prince Aegon. "You are not the only one who must needs hide."

She also needs to hide her identity.

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"Where in the seven hells is Haldon?" Griff complained to Lady Lemore. "How long should it take to buy three horses?"

Once we are in his head, Griff the nobleman calls her Lady Lemore.

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"Safer, yes. Wiser, no. He is a man grown now, and this is the road that he was born to walk." Griff had no patience for this quibbling. He was sick of hiding, sick of waiting, sick of caution. I do not have time enough for caution.

"We have gone to great lengths to keep Prince Aegon hidden all these years," Lemore reminded him. "The time will come for him to wash his hair and declare himself, I know, but that time is not now. Not to a camp of sellswords."

"If Harry Strickland means him ill, hiding him on the Shy Maid will not protect him. Strickland has ten thousand swords at his command. We have Duck. Aegon is all that could be wanted in a prince. They need to see that, Strickland and the rest. These are his own men."
"If Harry Strickland means him ill, hiding him on the Shy Maid will not protect him. Strickland has ten thousand swords at his command. We have Duck. Aegon is all that could be wanted in a prince. They need to see that, Strickland and the rest. These are his own men."

"His because they're bought and paid for. Ten thousand armed strangers, plus hangers-on and camp followers. All it takes is one to bring us all to ruin. If Hugor's head was worth a lord's honors, how much will Cersei Lannister pay for the rightful heir to the Iron Throne? You do not know these men, my lord. It has been a dozen years since you last rode with the Golden Company, and your old friend is dead."

Blackheart. Myles Toyne had been so full of life the last time Griff had left him, it was hard to accept that he was gone. A golden skull atop a pole, and Homeless Harry Strickland in his place. Lemore was not wrong, he knew. Whatever their sires or their grandsires might have been back in Westeros before their exile, the men of the Golden Company were sellswords now, and no sellsword could be trusted. Even so …

She's senior enough and important enough to argue back to Jon Connington. Not once or briefly either.

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"The plan was to reveal Prince Aegon only when we reached Queen Daenerys," Lemore was saying.

"That was when we believed the girl was coming west. Our dragon queen has burned that plan to ash, and thanks to that fat fool in Pentos, we have grasped the she-dragon by the tail and burned our fingers to the bone."

She's in on the plan. Not just a hireling, but part of the planning team.

Quote

When they were gone, Griff turned to the Halfmaester. "Ride back to the Shy Maid and return with Lady Lemore and Ser Rolly. We'll need Illyrio's chests as well. All the coin, and the armor. Give Yandry and Ysilla our thanks. Their part in this is done. They will not be forgotten when His Grace comes into his kingdom."

...

The prince arrived to join them four days later, riding at the head of a column of a hundred horse, with three elephants lumbering in his rear. Lady Lemore was with him, garbed once more in the white robes of a septa. Before them went Ser Rolly Duckfield, a snow-white cloak streaming from his shoulders.

Griff calls her Lady Lemore again, and again.

So yes, she's someone, important, more than she appears.

7 hours ago, LadyBlackwater said:

Could she be the mother of a sand snake? Tyenes Mother was supposedly a Septa, right? This has me scratching my head. GRRM is SO good at throwing out red herrings I don’t know what I’m watching out for anymore!!

Tyene's visited her mother in Westeros years ago. Lemore was already in Essos then.
Plus, Lemore is dark haired, and so is Oberyn. Tyene is blonde, which is usually a recessive colour and its very unusual for 2 dark haired parents (Lemore and Oberyn) to have a blonde child.

I think she is Ashara Dayne as well.
About the right age (Tyrions guess is above 40, Ashara is likely late 30s), has stretchmarks but no apparent kids, seems to be a Westerosi noble, swims daily and Ashara lived by the sea and supposedly commited suicide by diving from a tower into the sea but no body was found, dark haired as Ashara was, connected to fAegon/Elia/Rhaegar, would be one of very very few people who could possibly truly provide a convincing 'witness' to fAegon's identity to Westerosi noblemen like Doran Martell. And Ashara disappeared at almost the exact time fAegon was sent to Essos, and would have needed a nurse/maid/pretend mother/teacher.

 

[Platypus Rex]

She is Mellario of Norvos, Doran's wife.  Young Griff, styling himself Aegon VI, is her son, a baby-swapped Quentyn Martell.  Which of course means that the boy we know as Quentyn Martell is really …. 

[LadyBlackwater]

On 12/7/2019 at 3:18 AM, corbon said:

Yes, she's someone important.

Tyrion thinks she has secrets, he's just distractedly horny and dismisses her secrets because of that.

She's not just a Septa, a teacher, a hired hand, she's sworn to protect fAegon.

She also needs to hide her identity.

Once we are in his head, Griff the nobleman calls her Lady Lemore.

She's senior enough and important enough to argue back to Jon Connington. Not once or briefly either.

She's in on the plan. Not just a hireling, but part of the planning team.

Griff calls her Lady Lemore again, and again.

So yes, she's someone, important, more than she appears.

Tyene's visited her mother in Westeros years ago. Lemore was already in Essos then.
Plus, Lemore is dark haired, and so is Oberyn. Tyene is blonde, which is usually a recessive colour and its very unusual for 2 dark haired parents (Lemore and Oberyn) to have a blonde child.

I think she is Ashara Dayne as well.
About the right age (Tyrions guess is above 40, Ashara is likely late 30s), has stretchmarks but no apparent kids, seems to be a Westerosi noble, swims daily and Ashara lived by the sea and supposedly commited suicide by diving from a tower into the sea but no body was found, dark haired as Ashara was, connected to fAegon/Elia/Rhaegar, would be one of very very few people who could possibly truly provide a convincing 'witness' to fAegon's identity to Westerosi noblemen like Doran Martell. And Ashara disappeared at almost the exact time fAegon was sent to Essos, and would have needed a nurse/maid/pretend mother/teacher.

 

See now I also threw ashara around in my theories but I thought if it was her, they would throw in something about the color of her eyes. Didn’t she have very pronounced eyes? Did anyone see anything about her eyes in the book?

[corbon]

1 hour ago, LadyBlackwater said:

See now I also threw ashara around in my theories but I thought if it was her, they would throw in something about the color of her eyes. Didn’t she have very pronounced eyes? Did anyone see anything about her eyes in the book?

Yes, Ashara had "haunting" purple eyes. Thats the weakest part of the theory. 
But its also a dead giveaway as to her identity. GRRM can't give us Lemore's eye colour if she is Ashara Dayne and he's not ready to reveal that yet.

And he gives himself an out' When Tyrion describes Lemore for us, he's literally ogling her naked breasts. No real surprise he doesn't pay attention to her eye colour. Plus he explicitly tells us she has secrets but he just doesn't care, he's too randy.

Note also that purple eyes often don't actually look purple most of the time without the support of makeup or suitable accessories to bring out the colour. Heck, its easy to find photos of literally the most famous purple eyed woman in history, Elizabeth Taylor, and not see any purple at all.
If Lemore is Ashara, then her purple eyes were distinctive at court as a young beauty with all the advantages she could have, but less distinctive twenty years later as a ...nun, sort of, trying to hide her identity. 

[redriver]

21 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

She is Mellario of Norvos, Doran's wife.  Young Griff, styling himself Aegon VI, is her son, a baby-swapped Quentyn Martell.  Which of course means that the boy we know as Quentyn Martell is really …. 

Not sure about this. Aside from the quasi anagram. She's from Norvos and rails against Westerosi custom, especially that of fostering.

And now she can present as Westerosi and a Septa? Seems unlikely.

Have you got a link to a more fleshed out version of this?

[LadyBlackwater]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Yes, Ashara had "haunting" purple eyes. Thats the weakest part of the theory. 
But its also a dead giveaway as to her identity. GRRM can't give us Lemore's eye colour if she is Ashara Dayne and he's not ready to reveal that yet.

And he gives himself an out' When Tyrion describes Lemore for us, he's literally ogling her naked breasts. No real surprise he doesn't pay attention to her eye colour. Plus he explicitly tells us she has secrets but he just doesn't care, he's too randy.

Note also that purple eyes often don't actually look purple most of the time without the support of makeup or suitable accessories to bring out the colour. Heck, its easy to find photos of literally the most famous purple eyed woman in history, Elizabeth Taylor, and not see any purple at all.
If Lemore is Ashara, then her purple eyes were distinctive at court as a young beauty with all the advantages she could have, but less distinctive twenty years later as a ...nun, sort of, trying to hide her identity. 

That’s true. And it’s even said that when young Aegon has his hair died blue, his eyes don’t look so trademark Targaryen. 

[Platypus Rex]

4 hours ago, redriver said:

Not sure about this. Aside from the quasi anagram. She's from Norvos and rails against Westerosi custom, especially that of fostering.

What she railed against was separation from her kids.  According to my theory, here she is, with one of her kids.  As opposed to the alternative, in which she is (apparently, and rather incongruously) separated from all of them.

4 hours ago, redriver said:

And now she can present as Westerosi and a Septa?

Dunno.  22 (or more) years of intimate exposure to Westerosi culture, since a reasonably young age?  Is that not good enough?  And I'm sure there is nothing to prevent a person originally from Essos from becoming a Septa.  What would prevent one from becoming a pretend Septa?

 

4 hours ago, redriver said:

Have you got a link to a more fleshed out version of this?

A link?  No.  But feel free to ask me anything.  

[Melifeather]

I think Lady Lenore is Rhaella Targaryen. She’s got a septa connection - due to her multiple miscarriages Aerys had two septas sleep with her. She would be Aegon’s grandmother so very interested in protecting him.

[Loge]

7 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I think Lady Lenore is Rhaella Targaryen. She’s got a delta connection - due to her multiple miscarriages Aerys had two septas sleep with her. She would be Aegon’s grandmother so very interested in protecting him.

Rhaella died on Dragonstone. She'd be too old, too.

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, Loge said:

Rhaella died on Dragonstone. She'd be too old, too.

We are told she died, but we are also told Ashara died. 

Rhaella's birth year is calculated based on Rhaegar's birth year, which was 259. Assuming she was at least 13 years old when he was born, her birth year might be 246, making her 54 years old by year 300. Lemore is said to be "past 40". 

Quote

When Lemore climbed back onto the deck, Tyrion savored the sight of water trickling between her breasts, her smooth skin glowing golden in the morning light. She was past forty, more handsome than pretty, but still easy on the eye. Being randy is the next best thing to being drunk, he decided. It made him feel as if he was still alive. "Did you see the turtle, Hugor?" the septa asked him, wringing water from her hair. "The big ridgeback?"

Some people age better than others, and without knowing Septa Lemore's age, there's no reason to eliminate Rhaella as a suspect. There is no physical description of Rhaella, but its possible that she didn't have the trademark Targaryen silver or gold hair. Her grandmother was Betha Blackwood - a woman described as having dark eyes and hair.

Edited to add: I might point out that the kind of hair we have is passed genetically down through the mother's XX chromosomes. If you have a balding head, blame it on your mother's genes which she inherited from both her mother and father. Hair color works the same way. Take calico cats for example. They are very nearly always female. The reason is the number of colors. A female cat has two XX chromosomes, while a male has one X and one Y. Hair color is dictated by the X chromosome. The color white is passed along a different gene, so if you see a black or black and white male cat, the X chromosome provided the color black, therefore more than two colors (with or without white) require two XX chromosomes which would also make the cat female.

[Loge]

23 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

We are told she died, but we are also told Ashara died. 

We are only told that Ashara jumped off a tower. Everybody just presumes her dead. From So Spake Martin: 

Quote

We were repeatedly told that Ashara Dayne threw herself into the sea. I wonder how this is known for sure. Was her body ever found?

No.

So, while everybody assumes she is dead, they don't really know. Death in childbed, on the other hand leave a body. So it's fairly safe to assume that Rhaella is really dead.

[Melifeather]

22 minutes ago, Loge said:

We are only told that Ashara jumped off a tower. Everybody just presumes her dead. From So Spake Martin: 

So, while everybody assumes she is dead, they don't really know. Death in childbed, on the other hand leave a body. So it's fairly safe to assume that Rhaella is really dead.

Who could confirm that she died? Only Willem Darry would have known for sure. If she was keeping the real Aegon safe, it would make sense to protect her identity as well. 

[Loge]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Who could confirm that she died? Only Willem Darry would have known for sure. If she was keeping the real Aegon safe, it would make sense to protect her identity as well. 

Dragonstone is a big castle. Lots of personnel there. Servants, midwives, a Maester. Also a garrison, who probably witnessed the funeral. She was still the queen there, after all.

[Lady Rhodes]

On 12/8/2019 at 1:46 PM, LadyBlackwater said:

See now I also threw ashara around in my theories but I thought if it was her, they would throw in something about the color of her eyes. Didn’t she have very pronounced eyes? Did anyone see anything about her eyes in the book?

I have found that GRRM has a tendency to reference in other chapters/POVs things that are important in other sections. While no one mentioned her eyes, Barristan ruminated a lot on Ashara Dayne’s eyes.

[Platypus Rex]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Some people age better than others, and without knowing Septa Lemore's age, there's no reason to eliminate Rhaella as a suspect. 

Maybe not entirely.  Tyrion's estimate could be wrong.  But based on Tyrion's estimate, Ashara would be too young; Rhaella would be too old; and Mellario would be just right.

The evidence could be wrong.  But follow the evidence when you can.  You are more likely to be right in the end.  No guarantees.

[Melifeather]

32 minutes ago, Loge said:

Dragonstone is a big castle. Lots of personnel there. Servants, midwives, a Maester. Also a garrison, who probably witnessed the funeral. She was still the queen there, after all.

Nothing can be confirmed, but sometimes we can eliminate. It's my opinion that there is nothing concrete that eliminates Rhaella as a suspect. 

[SFDanny]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Rhaella's birth year is calculated based on Rhaegar's birth year, which was 259. Assuming she was at least 13 years old when he was born, her birth year might be 246, making her 54 years old by year 300. Lemore is said to be "past 40". 

Some people age better than others, and without knowing Septa Lemore's age, there's no reason to eliminate Rhaella as a suspect. There is no physical description of Rhaella, but its possible that she didn't have the trademark Targaryen silver or gold hair. Her grandmother was Betha Blackwood - a woman described as having dark eyes and hair.

The bolded part is very true. Lots of factors go into how quickly people age physically. One of those is their exposure to the elements. Sun and wind exposure being two significant contributing factors. So, living on a riverboat for over a decade, as Septa Lemore has, would be expected to make one look older, not younger than one's actual chronological age. Tyrion's guess of "past forty" fits much better for Ashara's real age of her late thirties than it does for Rhaella's age of in her mid to late fifties.