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Septa Lemore

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1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

The bolded part is very true. Lots of factors go into how quickly people age physically. One of those is their exposure to the elements. Sun and wind exposure being two significant contributing factors. So, living on a riverboat for over a decade, as Septa Lemore has, would be expected to make one look older, not younger than one's actual chronological age. Tyrion's guess of "past forty" fits much better for Ashara's real age of her late thirties than it does for Rhaella's age of in her mid to late fifties.

Your position is that Lemore has been floating down the Rhoyne, and Young Griff has been raised, on that riverboat for ten years? The boy's clothing that Illyrio has at his manse suggests otherwise.

Illyrio suggested to Tyrion that the safest passage to the sea from Braavos is to float down the Rhoyne, so Young Griff has only been on that riverboat long enough (that autumn) to make a single journey from Braavos to the sea.

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(Tyrion said) "The fastest way to Volantis is by sea."

"The sea is hazardous," replied Illyrio. "Autumn is a season rife with storms, and pirates still make their dens upon the Stepstones and venture forth to prey on honest men. It wouldn't ever do for my little friend to fall into such hands."

"There are pirates on the Rhoyne as well."

"River pirates." The cheesemonger gave a yawn, covering his mouth with the back of his hand. "Cockroach captains scurrying after crumbs."

 

 

Edited by Melifeather

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7 hours ago, SFDanny said:

The bolded part is very true. Lots of factors go into how quickly people age physically. One of those is their exposure to the elements. Sun and wind exposure being two significant contributing factors. So, living on a riverboat for over a decade, as Septa Lemore has, would be expected to make one look older, not younger than one's actual chronological age.

Lemore has not been living on a riverboat for a decade, AFAIK.

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Tyrion's guess of "past forty" fits much better for Ashara's real age of her late thirties than it does for Rhaella's age of in her mid to late fifties.

It fits Mellario best of all.  That way Tyrion's estimate would actually be correct.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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10 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Your position is that Lemore has been floating down the Rhoyne, and Young Griff has been raised, on that riverboat for ten years? The boy's clothing that Illyrio has at his manse suggests otherwise.

Illyrio suggested to Tyrion that the safest passage to the sea from Braavos is to float down the Rhoyne, so Young Griff has only been on that riverboat long enough (that autumn) to make a single journey from Braavos to the sea.

My position is that Young Griff has not been living at Illyrio's manse for some long time. The clothes that are chosen for Tyrion attest to that fact. Our dear Tyrion is not given clothes that would fit a teenage boy, but rather a "small boy." Clothes that are long in the leg, but too short in the arm length and collar Given those facts and Young Griff's age, or supposed age, we can be sure they are not the clothes he wore for some time. 

We know Lord Connington leaves the Golden Company after five years among them. We know he accepts the story of his theft of money from the company and his death from alcohol abuse - in short a cover story of disgrace - to take on the responsibility of raising Young Griff secretly with the help of others. That tells me "Aegon" leaves Illyrio's manse about the same time. Or when he was a "young boy" as Tyrion's guess about who the clothes were made for would telll us and would fit Aegon's age at the time if he is alive. 

Aegon's age - he is born in late 281 or very early 282 places his age when Tyrion meets him in early300 at eighteen years of age. So, the clothes are part of the evidence that Young Griff has not lived at Illyrio's for just about 10 years or more. 

Has all of that  been spent on the riverboat? We can't say for sure, but there is nothing that suggests he was only there for the one voyage with Tyrion, as August weather conditions happen every year. It is the only place we know that he certainly lived for any time once he is gone from Illyrio's. So, yes, it is my belief that the company of Septa Lemore, Lord Connington, and Young Griff have lived in secrecy away from Illyrio for about ten years. Was all of it on the Riverboat? One can only speculate, but without evidence we can't say they lived elsewhere.  My guess is that the Halfmaester was with them for a considerable amount of time out of concern the boy have the best of eductions. We see when Duck comes into the story.

Edited by SFDanny

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20 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Maybe not entirely.  Tyrion's estimate could be wrong.  But based on Tyrion's estimate, Ashara would be too young; Rhaella would be too old; and Mellario would be just right.

The evidence could be wrong.  But follow the evidence when you can.  You are more likely to be right in the end.  No guarantees.

My best guess would have Mellario spending 8 or 9 years in Westeros, not 22. That's where the evidence points to.

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9 hours ago, SFDanny said:

My position is that Young Griff has not been living at Illyrio's manse for some long time. The clothes that are chosen for Tyrion attest to that fact. Our dear Tyrion is not given clothes that would fit a teenage boy, but rather a "small boy." Clothes that are long in the leg, but too short in the arm length and collar Given those facts and Young Griff's age, or supposed age, we can be sure they are not the clothes he wore for some time. 

We know Lord Connington leaves the Golden Company after five years among them. We know he accepts the story of his theft of money from the company and his death from alcohol abuse - in short a cover story of disgrace - to take on the responsibility of raising Young Griff secretly with the help of others. That tells me "Aegon" leaves Illyrio's manse about the same time. Or when he was a "young boy" as Tyrion's guess about who the clothes were made for would telll us and would fit Aegon's age at the time if he is alive. 

Aegon's age - he is born in late 281 or very early 282 places his age when Tyrion meets him in early300 at eighteen years of age. So, the clothes are part of the evidence that Young Griff has not lived at Illyrio's for just about 10 years or more. 

Has all of that  been spent on the riverboat? We can't say for sure, but there is nothing that suggests he was only there for the one voyage with Tyrion, as August weather conditions happen every year. It is the only place we know that he certainly lived for any time once he is gone from Illyrio's. So, yes, it is my belief that the company of Septa Lemore, Lord Connington, and Young Griff have lived in secrecy away from Illyrio for about ten years. Was all of it on the Riverboat? One can only speculate, but without evidence we can't say they lived elsewhere.  My guess is that the Halfmaester was with them for a considerable amount of time out of concern the boy have the best of eductions. We see when Duck comes into the story.

Yes, the clothes that were in storage were ones that Griff grew out of - why would he keep clothes he could wear?

When Illyrio brings Tyrion to the riverboat they are part of a "train of mules carrying chests and casks and barrels..." partly to keep Illyrio in the luxury he's accustomed to, but mostly they are bringing provisions to load onto the riverboat for the trip. Illyrio makes it plain that the purpose of the trip is to introduce Young Griff to Daenerys. His calculations are based on her movements. He believes if she does plan to go to Westeros "her fleet must take on food and water at Volantis." then later "...by the time they reach Volantis... they shall find you and Griff awaiting them, with fresh forces and sufficient ships to carry them all across the sea to Westeros." 

Griff (Jon Connington) has been raising Young Griff - probably ever since he left Illyrio's manse. Septa Lemore has been with them also, since she's credited as his teacher. Illyrio brought candied ginger as a treat for Young Griff saying, "He was always fond of it."

After a number of days on the road they are met by Rolly Duckworth and Haldon the Halfmaester who had rode back from the river to meet them. Illyrio wanted to come along as far as Ghoyan Drohe to throw "A farewell feast before you start downriver..."

I don't know where Septa Lemore was prior to this trip down the river, but it wasn't outside exposed to the elements on a riverboat for ten years.

 

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2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Yes, the clothes that were in storage were ones that Griff grew out of - why would he keep clothes he could wear?

I guess I wasn't clear enough and need to go over this again. I've never suggested that Young Griff should have brought his old clothes that he grew out of with him on the river voyage. This idea that he would, has nothing to do with what I've said. Instead, I've pointed out the fact there are not clothes that would fit a boy older than the "small boy" who once wore the clothes available for Tyrion, suggests strongly that the small boy moved away and took the clothes that fit him with him when he did so.

This very logical inference supports the timing of when Connington takes over the care of "Young Griff." Both are facts that support the idea that Young Griff is away from Illyrio's manse for at least about ten years.

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

When Illyrio brings Tyrion to the riverboat they are part of a "train of mules carrying chests and casks and barrels..." partly to keep Illyrio in the luxury he's accustomed to, but mostly they are bringing provisions to load onto the riverboat for the trip. Illyrio makes it plain that the purpose of the trip is to introduce Young Griff to Daenerys. His calculations are based on her movements. He believes if she does plan to go to Westeros "her fleet must take on food and water at Volantis." then later "...by the time they reach Volantis... they shall find you and Griff awaiting them, with fresh forces and sufficient ships to carry them all across the sea to Westeros." 

Griff (Jon Connington) has been raising Young Griff - probably ever since he left Illyrio's manse. Septa Lemore has been with them also, since she's credited as his teacher. Illyrio brought candied ginger as a treat for Young Griff saying, "He was always fond of it."

After a number of days on the road they are met by Rolly Duckworth and Haldon the Halfmaester who had rode back from the river to meet them. Illyrio wanted to come along as far as Ghoyan Drohe to throw "A farewell feast before you start downriver..."

I don't disagree with most of this, especially since I've made the same points in my own posts, but to the bolded part I've emphasized, let me say it is likely that Septa Lemore has been with Young Griff well before Connington takes charge of his care. Someone has to have raised the child for the first five years of Lord Jon's exile while he is busy with the Golden Company. Septa Lemore is the most logical candidate for this role as the caretaker of Young Griff as a young child.

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I don't know where Septa Lemore was prior to this trip down the river, but it wasn't outside exposed to the elements on a riverboat for ten years.

It would be nice to see some evidence to support your theory. It seems a riverboat is an ideal place to hide the boy from prying eyes. It has the wonderful feature that other hideouts don't have - it can move when it needs to do so. In addition, we have the fact of Lemore's obvious at ease nature with living on the river. This is not a woman who is at a loss without the comforts of Illyrio's manse.

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2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I don't disagree with most of this, especially since I've made the same points in my own posts, but to the bolded part I've emphasized, let me say it is likely that Septa Lemore has been with Young Griff well before Connington takes charge of his care. Someone has to have raised the child for the first five years of Lord Jon's exile while he is busy with the Golden Company. Septa Lemore is the most logical candidate for this role as the caretaker of Young Griff as a young child.

I agree Septa Lemore has been with Young Griff longer than Jon Connington, and my theory that Lemore is Rhaella would fit well with this idea. Who better to care for the young infant than grandma? Everyone thinks they're both dead, so they could have stayed with Illyrio until he was four or five. She could have assumed the identity of Serra while living with Illyrio, although there is that gross story about having Serra's hands...

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Mellario is a Norvoshi noblewoman by birth. Lemore gives no indication of accent, no indication of having not believed in the Faith of the Andals her entire life, and no indication to have a bald head or to wear a wig in the company of others - as female Norvoshi noblewomen have and do.

The idea she would do a thing as ridiculous as helping Connington and Aegon when she had severe issues parting with her own children makes little sense.

Mellario is simply a woman from a distant land who fell in love with Doran Martell but could not feel at home in Dorne and eventually returned back home.

If Rhaella had survived she would be with her son and daughter, not her alleged grandson. She crowned Viserys III - she would not abandon her son for some infant.

Edited by Lord Varys

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10 hours ago, redriver said:

My best guess would have Mellario spending 8 or 9 years in Westeros, not 22. That's where the evidence points to.

Maybe, maybe not.  But it does not make any difference, as there is no evidence Septa Lemore has spent any more years in Westeros than Mellario has.  We know Septa Lemore speaks Westerosi; but we know the same of Mellario.  Where is the specific information that distinguishes them?   

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Mellario is a Norvoshi noblewoman by birth.

Lemore is also addressed a "Lady".  So I guess she's a noblewoman by birth too.  Probably Norvoshi, since we meet her by the Pentos-to-Norvos Valyrian road, and she's obviously not coming from Pentos.

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Lemore gives no indication of accent, ….

Right.  No indication one way or the other.  Tyrion says that Young Griff speaks the common tongue like he was born to it.  He says nothing of the sort about Lemore, whose secrets he is not really interested in, other than the hotness of her body.

The Faith of the Seven is found in Western Essos.  Tyrion would not necessarily be surprised even if the accent were recognizably Essossi.

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no indication of having not believed in the Faith of the Andals her entire life,

Why would she go out of her way to give such an indication?  And that's assuming Mellario did not belong to the Faith of the Seven her entire life.  Does EVERYONE who comes from Norvos belong to the same religion?  Maybe, maybe not.   Mellario certainly had no objection to marrying into the Faith of the Seven, anyhow.  And the Faith of the Seven IS found in Western Essos.

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and no indication to have a bald head or to wear a wig in the company of others - as female Norvoshi noblewomen have and do.

Nobody ever said she HAD to do it.  It was merely a custom.  It is a custom that can disguise Valyrian features, even before she had a motive for disguise.   Thus readers assume Mellario had black hair because Arianne is said to take after her mom.  But, thanks to the "wig" clue in the World Book, we realize that we actually have no idea what Mellario's hair color was.

Now, however, she has a motive for disguise.  She can't have people suspecting that Aegon VI is secretly her own son (which he is).  However, hair dye at this point is a better and less conspicuous disguise than a wig.  Ordinary habits and customs go out the window when you are pretending to be someone else.   She's pretending to be a Septa, not a Norvoshi noblewoman.

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The idea she would do a thing as ridiculous as helping Connington and Aegon when she had severe issues parting with her own children makes little sense.

That's your problem as well.  Why IS she separated from all her children?  

My theory at least joins her with ONE of her children.  It's not Aegon she is helping.  Aegon got sent to the Yronwoods in place of her son, and then, years later, Aegon got sent to see Danaerys on a fools mission to get him out of the way.  The "Aegon" she is helping IS her son.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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8 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

She is Serra,  fAegon's mother and Illyrio is his father. 

I don't think Lemore is Serra.  But she might be Serra's daughter.

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It's not easy hiding your true identity.One tends to give the game away despite oneself.

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On 12/12/2019 at 12:40 PM, redriver said:

It's not easy hiding your true identity.  One tends to give the game away despite oneself.

Right.  But does that mean that Lemore has no secrets at all?  Because whatever they are, Tyrion has not guessed them.  And Tyrion's lack of interest in her secrets is a pretty obvious signal that Tyrion may be missing something important in his calculations.

When Lemore gets south, she takes off her septa robes, and puts on instead the garb of a wealthy merchant's daughter.  Is this a guise?  Or another guise?  She could indeed be a wealthy merchant's daughter, as well as many other things.  If her dad is a wealthy merchant, then who is this wealthy merchant dad?  Illyrio?   The guy who journeyed out in a litter with a gift of candied ginger for "our lad" and a plan to give them all a sendoff feast before they all "started" down-river.

And if Illyrio is her dad, then who is her mom?  Serra?  And who is Serra?  The last female Blackfyre, after the male line ended?  Why did Illyrio feel the need to take a hit to his social influence by marrying her officially?  Was she secretly a more significant person than he pretends?

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1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Right.  But does that mean that Lemore has no secrets at all?  Because whatever they are, Tyrion has not guessed them.  And Tyrion's lack of interest in her secrets is a pretty obvious signal that Tyrion may be missing something important in his calculations.

When Lemore gets south, she takes off her septa robes, and puts on instead the garb of a wealthy merchant's daughter.  Is this a guise?  Or another guise?  She could indeed be a wealthy merchant's daughter, as well as many other things.  If her dad is a wealthy merchant, then who is this wealthy merchant dad?  Illyrio?   The guy who journeyed out in a litter with a gift of candied ginger for "our lad" and a plan to give them all a sendoff feast before they all "started" down-river.

And if Illyrio is her dad, then who is her mom?  Serra?  And who is Serra?  The last female Blackfyre, after the male line ended?  Why did Illyrio feel the need to take a hit to his social influence by marrying her officially?  Was she secretly a more significant person than he pretends?

See this is what I’m saying! It’s like a Russian nesting doll of mystery!!

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On 12/11/2019 at 4:33 PM, Lord Varys said:

Mellario is a Norvoshi noblewoman by birth. Lemore gives no indication of accent, no indication of having not believed in the Faith of the Andals her entire life, and no indication to have a bald head or to wear a wig in the company of others - as female Norvoshi noblewomen have and do.

The idea she would do a thing as ridiculous as helping Connington and Aegon when she had severe issues parting with her own children makes little sense.

Mellario is simply a woman from a distant land who fell in love with Doran Martell but could not feel at home in Dorne and eventually returned back home.

If Rhaella had survived she would be with her son and daughter, not her alleged grandson. She crowned Viserys III - she would not abandon her son for some infant.

You wouldn't think so, but what if she wasn't given much of a choice? Recall that LC Jon Snow did not give Gilly any choice. She had to take Aemon with her to Horn Hill and leave Monster behind. If there were powerful people trying to protect Aegon, they may have advised her that he'd be safer with her if everyone thought she was dead. Pretty hard to play dead if she also had Viserys and Daenerys with her.

Edited by Melifeather

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8 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

You wouldn't think so, but what if she wasn't given much of a choice? Recall that LC Jon Snow did not give Gilly any choice. She had to take Aemon with her to Horn Hill and leave Monster behind. If there were powerful people trying to protect Aegon, they may have advised her that he'd be safer with her if everyone thought she was dead. Pretty hard to play dead if she also had Viserys and Daenerys with her.

Queen Rhaella would not have given up her children because some eunuch and his buddy wanted her to do that.

Not to mention that Tyrion actually must have known Queen Rhaella in passing - or at least would have realized it if she looked like a Targaryen. They are heavily inbred and all look alike. Tyrion had seen Rhaegar and Aerys II, so he would have also have realized it if Lemore looked sort of like a female version of Rhaegar or Aerys II lacking Valyrian hair.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Queen Rhaella would not have given up her children because some eunuch and his buddy wanted her to do that.

Not to mention that Tyrion actually must have known Queen Rhaella in passing - or at least would have realized it if she looked like a Targaryen. They are heavily inbred and all look alike. Tyrion had seen Rhaegar and Aerys II, so he would have also have realized it if Lemore looked sort of like a female version of Rhaegar or Aerys II lacking Valyrian hair.

Queen Rhaella didn’t have a leg to stand on after the Sack. She’s lucky to have any friends at all. And Tyrion was a young boy in Casterly Rock during the Rebellion. How is he supposed to know how Targaryens look? It’s quite possible Rhaella looks like her grandmother, Betha Blackwood, who had dark eyes and hair.

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