Theory - Lyanna got pregnant in Harrenhal?

[corbon]

19 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

There is actually justification in the story that some folks in Winterfell believed that Jon was conceived during the Harrenhal tourney.  We just have to add these two Winterfell rumors together to come to that conclusion:

The rumour Catelyn heard isn't related to Harrenhal. 

19 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But the rumors apparently also included the fact that Ned's relationship began and ended at Harrenhal:

The rumour Harwin heard long ago related to Harrenhal, but no mention of Jon.

19 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

So perhaps the the maids and soldiers of Winterfell believed that Ned conceived Jon at Harrenhal, despite the fact that it would make him a good bit older than Robb.

Harwin doesn't even believe there was a thing between Ned and Ashara, let alone Jon came from it. He just points out that if there were a thing its no real biggie (assuming no child is conceived).

 

[Frey family reunion]

12 minutes ago, corbon said:

The rumour Catelyn heard isn't related to Harrenhal. 

The rumour Harwin heard long ago related to Harrenhal, but no mention of Jon.

Harwin doesn't even believe there was a thing between Ned and Ashara, let alone Jon came from it. He just points out that if there were a thing its no real biggie (assuming no child is conceived).

 

That’s why you have to add the two rumors together, because they are both rumors coming from Winterfell, and probably from the same time period.  The rumors are both that Ashara Dayne is Jon’s mother, and that Ned’s dalliance with Ashara happened at Harrenhal.  
And if you add the fact that Barristan is of a separate belief that Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal and that dishonor led to a pregnancy, it’s not a stretch to believe that some within Winterfell believe (whether justified or not) that Jon was conceived during the Harrenhal tourney.

In the initial rumor heard by Catelyn, it’s not clear when Ned and Ashara’s relationship began, only that she was waiting for Ned at Starfall.  And since it is believed that Ashara killed herself after Ned arrived at Starfall the rumors couldn’t have been that Ned conceived Jon when he arrived at Starfall.  So we only have this other rumor heard by Harwin to go on, that they were whispering that Ned’s opportunity to conceive Jon was at Harrenhal.

[corbon]

3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

That’s why you have to add the two rumors together, because they are both rumors coming from Winterfell, and probably from the same time period.  The rumors are both that Ashara Dayne is Jon’s mother, and that Ned’s dalliance with Ashara happened at Harrenhal.  
And if you add the fact that Barristan is of a separate belief that Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal and that dishonor led to a pregnancy, it’s not a stretch to believe that some within Winterfell believe (whether justified or not) that Jon was conceived during the Harrenhal tourney.

In the initial rumor heard by Catelyn, it’s not clear when Ned and Ashara’s relationship began, only that she was waiting for Ned at Starfall.  And since it is believed that Ashara killed herself after Ned arrived at Starfall the rumors couldn’t have been that Ned conceived Jon when he arrived at Starfall.  So we only have this other rumor heard by Harwin to go on, that they were whispering that Ned’s opportunity to conceive Jon was at Harrenhal.

The first point is that there is no such whisper. The two rumours are separate and different.
Catelyn asks about Jon because she has no other starting point and the rumour she hears gives her one, even if it is far distant from her real interest.

The second point is that Harwin, despite the rumour about Harrenhal, didn't even believe Ned and Ashara had a thing, let alone a child being conceived.

[Frey family reunion]

19 minutes ago, corbon said:

The first point is that there is no such whisper. The two rumours are separate and different.
Catelyn asks about Jon because she has no other starting point and the rumour she hears gives her one, even if it is far distant from her real interest.

The second point is that Harwin, despite the rumour about Harrenhal, didn't even believe Ned and Ashara had a thing, let alone a child being conceived.

How can these rumors be separated out so cleanly?  It’s clear that the scuttlebut in Winterfell is that Ashara is Jon’s mom.  Clear enough to cause Cat to confront Ned.  What isn’t made clear is when this affair would have started.  It couldn’t have been after Ned takes Dawn to a Starfall for obvious reasons.  

Harwin reveals that the rumor in Winterfell is that the affair occurred at Harrenhal when dalliances often occur, between two people who were not betrothed.  
Now whether or not Harwin believes it isn’t the issue.  The issue is that people in Winterfell believed it, people who were in a position to see Jon and Robb grow up together and still be of the belief that Jon was conceived during the Harrenhal tourney.

And Harwin even admits the possibility that Ashara and Ned had intercourse at Harrenhal as obliquely as he could when talking to Arya.  When he says that something more than just words or kisses may have occurred between them.  
 

ETA it also has to be understood that Harwin is only addressing one particular point that Arya is upset about.  Arya is upset that her father was supposed to have been in love with Ashara.  Because she believes that her father has only ever loved her mother.  Harwin isn’t going to go into the full extent of the rumor that Ned conceived Jon with Ashara, because that would only upset her more.  He just sticks with the part of the rumor that might mollify Arya.  That this relationship happened before Ned and Cat were betrothed.

[SFDanny]

5 hours ago, Marysa Blackfyre said:

Are you saying Brandon didn't care if it was a kidnapping or not?

No, I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is he knew it wasn't a kidnapping in that he didn't think Lyanna was taken against her will because he knew his sister's objections to the marriage to Robert, and he knew of her attraction to Rhaegar from her actions at Harrenhal.

Let me be very, very clear. I have no doubt that Lord Rickard, Brandon, Ned, and Benjen all loved Lyanna and would fight to the death against anyone who would threaten her or do her harm. That doesn't mean some of them would not expect her to do her "duty" and marry Robert because that was what Lord Rickard had promised - NO MATTER WHAT HER OBJECTIONS  TO ROBERT WERE!

In regards to Brandon in particular we should take note that the match between Catelyn and Brandon was not a love match. It was an alliance between House Stark and House Tully negotiated between the two lords and to which Brandon believed he was duty bound to follow the commitments made by his father. No matter what his feelings were for Lady Dustin, or Ashara, or anyone else. He expected nothing but the same from his sister towards Lord Rickard Stark's commitments, and to Stark family honor. When Brandon rides into the Red Keep to demand Rhaegar's death and he doesn't even mention his sister, it tells me he was quite probably almost as angry with Lyanna as he was with Rhaegar.

I believe Martin has given us the template for this conflict over and over again. Love vs.  Duty. Robb and Jeyne vs. Robb's commitment to the Freys. Prince Duncan and his lady Jenny of Oldstones vs. King Aegon's pledge to Lord Lyonel Baratheon. And on, and on. Why some readers don't this instance in the important context Martin has given us, I don't know.

5 hours ago, Marysa Blackfyre said:

Some time ago I read a theory that someone would deliberately lie so that Brandon would die.
Could it be Littlefinger's work? We know he was supposed to be in the Vale, but I doubt he was comfortable while Brandon was marrying Catelyn.
Maybe he was following them, maybe he saw Lyanna run away and took the opportunity, saying to someone, "Tell Brandon that Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar". It may have been the first of his subterfuges, but since he was still young it wasn't about the Throne yet, maybe it was just a desire to send Brandon away and stop him from marrying Catelyn.

I doubt Littlefinger has anything to do with tricking Brandon to his death. I know others have thought that Baelish could have been in the Inn at the Crossroads when a confrontation between Rhaegar and Lyanna's party takes place, but there is no reason that would suggest Brandon would believe anything thing Petyr told him. Far from it. Littlefinger is recovering from serious wounds Brandon had inflicted upon him shortly before the "kidnapping" occurs and he is still likely in Riverrun recuperating from his injuries until Lord Hoster decides he will have him removed.

[frenin]

22 minutes ago, corbon said:

The first point is that there is no such whisper. The two rumours are separate and different.
Catelyn asks about Jon because she has no other starting point and the rumour she hears gives her one, even if it is far distant from her real interest.

There is.

 

"Those who favor Stannis will call it proof. Those who support Joffrey will say it means nothing." Her own children had more Tully about them than Stark. Arya was the only one to show much of Ned in her features. And Jon Snow, but he was never mine. She found herself thinking of Jon's mother, that shadowy secret love her husband would never speak of. Does she grieve for Ned as I do? Or did she hate him for leaving her bed for mine? Does she pray for her son as I have prayed for mine?
They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him.
Still, she was struck again by how strangely men behaved when it came to their bastards. Ned had always been fiercely protective of Jon, and Ser Cortnay Penrose had given up his life for this Edric Storm, yet Roose Bolton's bastard had meant less to him than one of his dogs, to judge from the tone of the queer cold letter Edmure had gotten from him not three days past. He had crossed the Trident and was marching on Harrenhal as commanded, he wrote. "A strong castle, and well garrisoned, but His Grace shall have it, if I must kill every living soul within to make it so." He hoped His Grace would weigh that against the crimes of his bastard son, whom Ser Rodrik Cassel had put to death. "A fate he no doubt earned," Bolton had written. "Tainted blood is ever treacherous, and Ramsay's nature was sly, greedy, and cruel. I count myself well rid of him. The trueborn sons my young wife has promised me would never have been safe.

 

 

"I shall wear that as a badge of honor," Ned said dryly.
"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"
"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."

 

 

The more i read it, the more i think that Ashara slept with none of the Starks brothers ut they were later put in the mix because they were all big names at the time.

[corbon]

18 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

How can these rumors be separated out so cleanly?  

By their content. How else?

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It’s clear that the scuttlebut in Winterfell is that Ashara is Jon’s mom.  

No, it isn't clear. Its a possibility. So are other possibilities.

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Clear enough to cause Cat to confront Ned.  

Cat's concern is Jon's mother. 

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What isn’t made clear is when this affair would have started.  It couldn’t have been after Ned takes Dawn to a Starfall for obvious reasons.

Indeed

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Harwin reveals that the [a] rumor in Winterfell is that the [an] affair [may have] occurred at Harrenhal when dalliances often occur, between two people who were not betrothed.  

FIFY

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Now whether or not Harwin believes it isn’t the issue.  

Yes it is. Harwin is one of the people in Winterfell. You are claiming that this was a belief of the people of Winterfell, well here is the only one of them we hear from on the subject and its not his belief.

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The issue is that people in Winterfell believed it, 

Who in Winterfell believed it? Not Harwin. He's a "people in Winterfell". Not Cat - she was curious enough about the possibility to ask Ned, but by the end she's still wondering who  Jon's mother really was.

Just because possibilities are being discussed doesn't mean they are all believed in or even believable. Ideas get floated, tried for merit and may be abandoned, kept in the background as a possibility or believed as a probability. So far there is no sign anyone in Winterfell actually believed Jon was conceived there, only that the idea there was a relationship between Ned and Ashara was floated, and not believed.

Quote

And Harwin even admits the possibility that Ashara and Ned had intercourse at Harrenhal as obliquely as he could when talking to Arya.  When he says that something more than just words or kisses may have occurred between them.  

Yup. But he doesn't believe it. He's just pointing out to Arya that its no big deal (so long as they aren't caught and there are no further consequences, like a child).

ETA And as @Frenin showed, some did perhaps add that second rumour to the first to suggest that perhaps Ashara was Jon's mother - not that he was conceived at Harrenhal, just that she was his mother.
 

[Ygrain]

 

15 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 It’s clear that the scuttlebut in Winterfell is that Ashara is Jon’s mom.

No, it isn't - in fact, the contrary. There are three rumours circulating Winterfell:

1) Jon's mother was commonborn (Sansa's PoV)

2)  Ashara and Ned had a thing at HH, with no mention of Jon as its outcome, and the plausibility of this rumour is questioned.

3) the rumour brought by the  soldiers from the South, about Ned taking the trouble to deliver Dawn to this beautiful southern lady. 

Cat never spends any thought on 1), so she may not have heard. We know she heard 3), and either knew or heard about 2), as well, or the long detour just to deliver Dawn sounded suspicious to her. No-one, at any point, at Winterfell voices the theory that Ashara was Jon's mother.

[corbon]

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

There is.

They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him.

 

Good, thanks. 
Note that this still doesn't put Jon as conceived at Harrenhal. A relationship possibly started there may have been rekindled while Ned was campaigning. 

 

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

The more i read it, the more i think that Ashara slept with none of the Starks brothers ut they were later put in the mix because they were all big names at the time.

 

That would not surprise me. Though Brandon has been painted by GRRM as something of a hound dog, and was hanging out with Ashara at Harrenhal, where she was dishonoured.
And for some reason, she looked to Stark. 

[corbon]

4 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

No, it isn't - in fact, the contrary. There are three rumours circulating Winterfell:

1) Jon's mother was commonborn (Sansa's PoV)

2)  Ashara and Ned had a thing at HH, with no mention of Jon as its outcome, and the plausibility of this rumour is questioned.

3) the rumour brought by the  soldiers from the South, about Ned taking the trouble to deliver Dawn to this beautiful southern lady. 

Cat never spends any thought on 1), so she may not have heard. We know she heard 3), and either knew or heard about 2), as well, or the long detour just to deliver Dawn sounded suspicious to her. No-one, at any point, at Winterfell voices the theory that Ashara was Jon's mother.

@Frenin has just shown that someone did voice just that - most likely someone at Winterfell.
But thats the nature of gossip. In the absence of a strong option, weak option get discussed.

[Frey family reunion]

4 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

No, it isn't - in fact, the contrary. There are three rumours circulating Winterfell:

1) Jon's mother was commonborn (Sansa's PoV)

2)  Ashara and Ned had a thing at HH, with no mention of Jon as its outcome, and the plausibility of this rumour is questioned.

3) the rumour brought by the  soldiers from the South, about Ned taking the trouble to deliver Dawn to this beautiful southern lady. 

Cat never spends any thought on 1), so she may not have heard. We know she heard 3), and either knew or heard about 2), as well, or the long detour just to deliver Dawn sounded suspicious to her. No-one, at any point, at Winterfell voices the theory that Ashara was Jon's mother.

No, you’re clearly wrong on this.  The rumor of Ashara being Jon’s mother stopped because according to Cat Ned forbid anyone from mentioning Ashara’s name again.  This is why the children would have been unaware of this rumor.  

[Ygrain]

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

There is.

 

"Those who favor Stannis will call it proof. Those who support Joffrey will say it means nothing." Her own children had more Tully about them than Stark. Arya was the only one to show much of Ned in her features. And Jon Snow, but he was never mine. She found herself thinking of Jon's mother, that shadowy secret love her husband would never speak of. Does she grieve for Ned as I do? Or did she hate him for leaving her bed for mine? Does she pray for her son as I have prayed for mine?
They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him.
Still, she was struck again by how strangely men behaved when it came to their bastards. Ned had always been fiercely protective of Jon, and Ser Cortnay Penrose had given up his life for this Edric Storm, yet Roose Bolton's bastard had meant less to him than one of his dogs, to judge from the tone of the queer cold letter Edmure had gotten from him not three days past. He had crossed the Trident and was marching on Harrenhal as commanded, he wrote. "A strong castle, and well garrisoned, but His Grace shall have it, if I must kill every living soul within to make it so." He hoped His Grace would weigh that against the crimes of his bastard son, whom Ser Rodrik Cassel had put to death. "A fate he no doubt earned," Bolton had written. "Tainted blood is ever treacherous, and Ramsay's nature was sly, greedy, and cruel. I count myself well rid of him. The trueborn sons my young wife has promised me would never have been safe.

 

 

"I shall wear that as a badge of honor," Ned said dryly.
"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"
"For a start," said Ned, "I do not kill children. You would do well to listen, my lady. I shall say this only once. When the king returns from his hunt, I intend to lay the truth before him. You must be gone by then. You and your children, all three, and not to Casterly Rock. If I were you, I should take ship for the Free Cities, or even farther, to the Summer Isles or the Port of Ibben. As far as the winds blow."

 

 

The more i read it, the more i think that Ashara slept with none of the Starks brothers ut they were later put in the mix because they were all big names at the time.

Yeah but those are not rumour originating or circulating at Winterfell, or at least are not mentioned as such. The ones that are explicitely mentioned are those I cited in my post.

[frenin]

2 minutes ago, corbon said:

Good, thanks. 
Note that this still doesn't put Jon as conceived at Harrenhal. A relationship possibly started there may have been rekindled while Ned was campaigning. 

Wasn't arguing that anyway, Ned and Ashara have been a thing in gossips for more than decade now and was the favourite tale and belief in Winterfell until Ned shut it off.

 

4 minutes ago, corbon said:

That would not surprise me. Though Brandon has been painted by GRRM as something of a hound dog, and was hanging out with Ashara at Harrenhal, where she was dishonoured.
And for some reason, she looked to Stark.

It's practically shouted that Ned  was attracted to Ashara and Brandon helped him a bit,  only because Brandon is a womanizer don't mean that he is going to screw his little brother like that.

Nor that we know how and why Ashara looked to Stark, as far as we know Ashara may have indeed felt something for Ned and it didn't go further. 

[corbon]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

No, you’re clearly wrong on this.  The rumor of Ashara being Jon’s mother stopped because according to Cat Ned forbid anyone from mentioning Ashara’s name again.  This is why the children would have been unaware of this rumor.  

Thats not accurate.

Ned did not forbid people to mention Ashara's name. Ned said "Never ask me about Jon" and wanted to know the source of the rumours so he could stop them all which he did.

Cat notes Ashara's name wasn't heard again because thats her focus at that time. But she also notes that all the whispers stopped. Stopped getting to her at least.

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Yeah but those are not rumour originating or circulating at Winterfell, or at least are not mentioned as such. The ones that are explicitely mentioned are those I cited in my post.

Ummm, Cat segues directly from wondering who Jon’s mother is to confronting Ned with the rumor of Ashara Dayne.  It’s clear that the rumor is that Ashara was Jon’s mother.

[Ygrain]

1 minute ago, corbon said:

@Frenin has just shown that someone did voice just that - most likely someone at Winterfell.
But thats the nature of gossip. In the absence of a strong option, weak option get discussed.

No, @corbon - it cannot be ruled out that Cat heard only at Winterfell, but the textual support is simply not there. Depending on when Ashara gave birth and how fast the rumour spread, she may have heard about her baby at Riverrun, and put it together with Ned's visit to Starfall. Also, Cat was in touch with people outside Winterfell, so the rumour might have come from there

[corbon]

Just now, frenin said:

It's practically shouted that Ned  was attracted to Ashara and Brandon helped him a bit,  only because Brandon is a womanizer don't mean that he is going to screw his little brother like that.

No it isn't. Its not even clearly indicated, let alone shouted, that Ned liked Ashara.

Saying its shouted shows that the Edric Dayne idea, which we know is flawed gossip by people who weren't around, and the Winterfell rumours, has influenced your reading of the KotLT dance story. Thats the only actual infor from someone who was there and doesn;t show Ned 'liking' Ashara clearly, merely that Brandon asked Ashara to dance with Ned..

Just now, frenin said:

Nor that we know how and why Ashara looked to Stark, as far as we know Ashara may have indeed felt something for Ned and it didn't go further. 

Yes, its still a possibility that Ashara and Ned liked each other. Just not a very strong one.

And there is still zero indication that anyone believed Jon was conceived at Harrenhal.

[Ygrain]

1 minute ago, corbon said:

Cat notes Ashara's name wasn't heard again because thats her focus at that time. But she also notes that all the whispers stopped. Stopped getting to her at least.

Yep. Because there is another rumour which reached Sansa's ears, but probably not Cat's.

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ummm, Cat segues directly from wondering who Jon’s mother is to confronting Ned with the rumor of Ashara Dayne.  It’s clear that the rumor is that Ashara was Jon’s mother.

That is not "clear", that is an assumption. Not impossible or implausible, but you cannot rule out that Cat had already heard some other bits about Ashara (and Ned) prior, perhaps even back home at Riverrun, and that what she heard from the servants was only about Ned's trip to Starfall, and she connected the dots.

[frenin]

14 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Yeah but those are not rumour originating or circulating at Winterfell, or at least are not mentioned as such. The ones that are explicitely mentioned are those I cited in my post.

I mean the rumours clearly linked Ashara with Jon, Cat wouldn't give a damn if those rumours weren't related to Jon's mother, she clearly states that she doesn't care whether Ned may have had a ton of lovers or not.

And the rumours only stopped because a very angry Ned put and end of it.

[Frey family reunion]

11 minutes ago, corbon said:

Thats not accurate.

Ned did not forbid people to mention Ashara's name. Ned said "Never ask me about Jon" and wanted to know the source of the rumours so he could stop them all which he did.

Cat notes Ashara's name wasn't heard again because thats her focus at that time. But she also notes that all the whispers stopped. Stopped getting to her at least.

You guys are really splitting hairs here.  According to Cat Ned was furious with Cat for confronting him about Ashara.  He tells her to never ask him about Jon again which makes it clear that she’s confronting him with a rumor that directly concerns Jon.  He demands to know where she heard the rumors from, and after that no one made mention of Ashara’s name again.  
 

It’s fairly clear that , according to Cat, Ned looked to put a stop to this rumor being disseminated.  Now surely this couldn’t have put an end to the whispers but certainly would have put an end to any whispers that would have been in the presence of the Stark family, or their inner circle.
 

It also wouldn’t surprise me if Cat may have really been the one to put a kibosh on the rumors, because of her insecurity concerning her children’s inheritance.

Which may explain why Harwin looked so uncomfortable talking about the subject with Arya, and asking Arya not to make mention of what they discussed with her mother.