Theory - Lyanna got pregnant in Harrenhal?

[Melifeather]

29 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Luwin's statement can only be understood as meaning a person's emotional or psychological growth, which can indeed be influenced by the marital status of his/her parents (in that society).

"Only" is a very strong word. It's concrete and indisputable. There is nothing about Luwin's words that convey with utmost certainty what his intent was other that to assuage Catelyn's displeasure that Jon was better than Robb at everything. You are stating your opinion that it can only be understood one way. It's not a fact. It's simply your preferred interpretation.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

"Only" is a very strong word. It's concrete and indisputable. There is nothing about Luwin's words that convey with utmost certainty what his intent was other that to assuage Catelyn's displeasure that Jon was better than Robb at everything. You are stating your opinion that it can only be understood one way. It's not a fact. It's simply your preferred interpretation.

There are two ways to interpret "grow up". One is physical, the other is emotional/psychological.

It's not my "preferred interpretation" that children's physical growth cannot be determined by the parent's marital status; that's just a fact of biology. So what other way could Luwin's words be interpreted except to refer to emotional/psychological maturity?

One other thing: a search of my book for the phrase "bastards grow up faster" did not turn up any results of Luwin saying this to Catelyn. It occurs twice.

1. Jon repeats Luwin's words to Benjen at the feast in Winterfell when Benjen is questioning if Jon is mature enough to go to the Wall.

2. Jon thinks it to himself when he's angry at being chosen to be a steward instead of a ranger. When Sam points out to him the meaning of that choice, Jon replies to him, "You have the right of it. I was acting the boy." Meaning, he should have been more mature about it.

 

[Melifeather]

36 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

So what other way could Luwin's words be interpreted except to refer to emotional/psychological maturity?

If it's a common colloquial saying that "bastards grow up faster, it could be repeated as a way to refute appearances. If Jon "looked" like he was only, say, 9 months old, but he was already walking, it may be an indication that he was already a year old. I'm just using this an an example. I am not saying that this was what Catelyn saw. I'm trying to explain how the phrase "bastards grow up faster" could be used to calm a nervous mother worried that her husband's bastard could threaten her son's trueborn inheritance.

[Melifeather]

38 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

One other thing: a search of my book for the phrase "bastards grow up faster" did not turn up any results of Luwin saying this to Catelyn. It occurs twice.

1. Jon repeats Luwin's words to Benjen at the feast in Winterfell when Benjen is questioning if Jon is mature enough to go to the Wall.

2. Jon thinks it to himself when he's angry at being chosen to be a steward instead of a ranger. When Sam points out to him the meaning of that choice, Jon replies to him, "You have the right of it. I was acting the boy." Meaning, he should have been more mature about it.

 

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon I

Uncle Benjen studied his face carefully. "The Wall is a hard place for a boy, Jon."

 

"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."

 

Apparently it's something Maester Luwin says. Does the text have to include him saying it to Catelyn to confirm that she had heard him say it?

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VI

And suddenly Jon Snow was ashamed.

 

Craven or not, Samwell Tarly had found the courage to accept his fate like a man. On the Wall, a man gets only what he earns, Benjen Stark had said the last night Jon had seen him alive. You're no ranger, Jon, only a green boy with the smell of summer still on you. He'd heard it said that bastards grow up faster than other children; on the Wall, you grew up or you died.

 

 

 

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

If Jon "looked" like he was only, say, 9 months old, but he was already walking, it may be an indication that he was already a year old.

Or it means he started walking earlier than most kids. Same way some start talking earlier than others, some start crawling earlier than others, etc. It’s not like biology is an exact science, like maths where 2+2=4. 

[Ygrain]

11 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Apparently it's something Maester Luwin says. Does the text have to include him saying it to Catelyn to confirm that she had heard him say it?

Yes, it does - because the context of the quotes shows that the growth means maturity. So, if you claim physical growth, you need to provide a quote (which does not exist). And in the meaning of maturity, I doubt it is something that Catelyn would like to hear or that it would somehow comfort her.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Yes, it does - because the context of the quotes shows that the growth means maturity. So, if you claim physical growth, you need to provide a quote (which does not exist). And in the meaning of maturity, I doubt it is something that Catelyn would like to hear or that it would somehow comfort her.

No it doesn't. Jon doesn't explicitly say that Maester Luwin told me that bastards grow up faster. He just said, Maester Luwin says. It could be something Maester Luwin said frequently. Jon and Robb were "of an age" and yet Jon was always better, faster, more accomplished, etc. I'm sure Catelyn was quite annoyed that this little bastard living in her house was better than her own son at every, single, damn, thing. The only explanation Maester Luwin offers is that "bastards grow up faster". It doesn't strictly apply to maturity, and your insistence that I need to provide text to support my position that it could also be repeated as a way to disguise physical growth (which I intend to mean "age" by the way) is a biased requirement on your part, because I could require the same from you. Provide the text that proves that "bastards grow up faster" can only mean emotional maturity.

[Melifeather]

43 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Or it means he started walking earlier than most kids. Same way some start talking earlier than others, some start crawling earlier than others, etc. It’s not like biology is an exact science, like maths where 2+2=4. 

I don't disagree. Like I said it was only an example. If you don't know the exact age of a child, have doubts about who the child's mother is, can't confirm where he came from or when, AND the father won't talk about it, you'd be forced to draw your own conclusions based on what you saw or heard. Jon's physical description sounds like he's smaller than Robb just as Jon noted that Monster was smaller than Aemon, even though Monster was older. Babies do develop at different rates and milestones are typically within certain ranges, for example a six month old typically can roll from back to front or visa versa. Some can sit up without assistance. Some can pull themselves up and stand next to a piece of furniture and bounce up and down. But what if there were two children of relatively the same size and supposedly "of an age", but the bastard baby can do some of the six month milestone things, while your own infant just mastered holding their head up and pushing up from the tummy?

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

I don't disagree. Like I said it was only an example. If you don't know the exact age of a child, have doubts about who the child's mother is, can't confirm where he came from or when, AND the father won't talk about it, you'd be forced to draw your own conclusions based on what you saw or heard. Jon's physical description sounds like he's smaller than Robb just as Jon noted that Monster was smaller than Aemon, even though Monster was older.

I haven’t seen anything in the text that makes me think Jon is smaller/shorter than Robb. He is described as slender and Robb as muscular, but again, that is a description of body type and doesn’t clarify anything regarding height. 

1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

Babies do develop at different rates and milestones are typically within certain ranges, for example a six month old typically can roll from back to front or visa versa. Some can sit up without assistance. Some can pull themselves up and stand next to a piece of furniture and bounce up and down. But what if there were two children of relatively the same size, supposedly both are "of an age", but the bastard baby can do some of the six month milestone things, while your own infant just mastered holding their head up and pushing up from the tummy?

Wait... first you said Jon is “smaller”, but now they’re roughly the same size? And you kind of answered your own question there... different babies/toddlers will reach different developmental stages at different ages, and some times w/ quite a few months’ difference. 

22 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Jon and Robb were "of an age" and yet Jon was always better, faster, more accomplished, etc. I'm sure Catelyn was quite annoyed that this little bastard living in her house was better than her own son at every, single, damn, thing

Also, this is not true. For instance, there’s this bit from AGoT, Jon I:

“Jon swelled with pride. Robb is a stronger lance than I am, but I’m the better sword, and Hullen says I sit a horse as well as anyone in the castle.”

[Melifeather]

8 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wait... first you said Jon is “smaller”, but now they’re roughly the same size? And you kind of answered your own question there... different babies/toddlers will reach different developmental stages at different ages, and some times w/ quite a few months’ difference. 

My position is that Jon and Robb looked to be "of an age", or rather they physically looked like they could be the same age. However, Jon's slender build could conceal an older age, and his advanced abilities could also be an indication that he is actually older.

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Also, this is not true. For instance, there’s this bit from AGoT, Jon I:

“Jon swelled with pride. Robb is a stronger lance than I am, but I’m the better sword, and Hullen says I sit a horse as well as anyone in the castle.”

This is also when they're in their teens. They should be closer in abilities by then. We were discussing infant development, which would have more marked differences.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

Jon and Robb were "of an age" and yet Jon was always better, faster, more accomplished, etc.

Maybe it's because he takes after his biological father. 

Jon and Robb take their lessons together and they train in the yard together. It's basically a classroom of two where Jon is the better student. 

And there's nowhere in the text that I can see where Jon is stated to be smaller than Robb. They have different body types. Robb is muscular and Jon is slender. And Joffrey who is younger than both of them by a good 2-3 years is taller than either.

[Melifeather]

A muscular body type looks bigger than a slender body type. You could even say more developed than the slender body type! Actually, the "stronger lance" supports Robb's muscular strength while the "better sword" supports Jon's advanced ability.

[kissdbyfire]

15 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

This is also when they're in their teens. They should be closer in abilities by then. We were discussing infant development, which would have more marked differences.

As you can see below, that’s not what you said previously. 

49 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I'm sure Catelyn was quite annoyed that this little bastard living in her house was better than her own son at every, single, damn, thing.

 

[Melifeather]

22 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

As you can see below, that’s not what you said previously. 

 

Oh my goodness. You are nitpicking about my own wording/text while I’m clarifying my intent! Har! Just because you misunderstood me doesn’t mean I’m contradicting myself! It’s actually pretty ironic because the phrasing used in the books can be interpreted more than one way. I understand that, but you and some others stubbornly insist that your interpretation is the only valid one. 

[Lord Varys]

The bastard thing is something George stole directly from Maurice Druon:

Quote

In the evening they stopped at an inn. The halts upon a journey tend to the making of confidences. As they sat before the fire, drinking cans of mulled ale, strong beer laced with Geneva rum, spices and cloves, while a meal and a bed were being prepared for them, Signor Boccaccio told Guccio that he had a French mistress by whom he had had, the previous year, a boy who had been baptized Giovanni.

‘They say that bastard children are more intelligent and have more vitality than others,’ remarked Guccio sententiously. He had several admirable clichés at his disposal to make conversation with.

‘Undoubtedly God gives them gifts of mind and body to compensate them for the advantages of inheritance and position that He withholds. Or perhaps, more simply, they have a harder row to hoe in life than others, and do not expect to become famous but by their own efforts,’ replied Signor Boccaccio.

‘This one, however, will have a father who can teach him much.’

It is also a concept nobody in the actual middle ages seems to have believed, just as nobody was branding noble bastards with freak surnames.

Within the context of ASoIaF it clearly refers both to physical and emotional growth - after all, we all do know that Joffrey Baratheon is taller than both Robb and Jon who are (at least) two years older than he is.

But as a concept it is ambiguous - I'd say the superstitious nonsense is that bastards grow quicker (although there are some cases where this 'appears to be accurate') but the inadvertent truth is what Boccaccio says about his son above [the bastard they talk about is the poet]. Bastards in Westeros are treated like freaks and outcasts, and have to be more perceptive, smarter, stronger, more ruthless to make a career for themselves - not to mention that if they are raised at a castle they are treated differently than the proper children of the lord, meaning they make experiences that make them grow up sooner than others.

I don't buy for a moment Jon was conceived at Harrenhal - but if Lya got pregnant back then she certainly would have had time to give birth to two rather than just one child (and Jon Snow would happen to be Rhaegar's second child by Lyanna, not his first). The Year of the False Spring was 281 AC and Lya died in 283 AC - more than enough times for two pregnancies.

However, it seems quite clear to me that Jon must be actually older than Robb. Ned fathered Robb only after his marriage after the Battle of the Bells - around a time when Rhaegar was also returning to court to train the new troops. Rhaegar and Lyanna had about months to conceive a child after the abduction and it doesn't strike me as particularly likely - especially not while we have no evidence for that - that they were effectively only lucky the last time Rhaegar and she had sex (although that would mean Rhaegar didn't know Lya was with child when he left her and may have never found out - which is also an interesting possibility).

In any case, it seems clear to me that Ned made his bastard son younger than Lyanna's child, something that could indeed be explained rather easily by this prevalent belief about bastards growing faster than legitimate children. If Jon looked more like a one-year-old when he was only supposed to be four months or so this could be explained away by this fact.

The different birth dates between the bastard and Lyanna's child could also help obscure the connection - something that would have never worked if Ned's bastard was born around the time Lyanna Stark died - since chances are very low that nobody suspected or outright knew she was pregnant or died in childbirth. In fact, I maintain that people do know Lyanna Stark died in childbirth but believe she produced a stillborn child or had a miscarriage that killed her.

[kissdbyfire]

30 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Oh my goodness. You are nitpicking about my own wording/text while I’m clarifying my intent! Har! Just because you misunderstood me doesn’t mean I’m contradicting myself! It’s actually pretty ironic because the phrasing used in the books can be interpreted more than one way. I understand that, but you and some others stubbornly insist that your interpretation is the only valid one. 

Huh? Are you now saying that Cat was annoyed because Jon was “better than her own son at every, single, damn, thing“ (which isn’t even true) because as a baby he rolled over first? Or sat up before Robb?

 

[Ser Leftwich]

Provide me with textual evidence that Ned didn't give birth to both Jon and Dany, himself!!!

[Melifeather]

24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Huh? Are you now saying that Cat was annoyed because Jon was “better than her own son at every, single, damn, thing“ (which isn’t even true) because as a baby he rolled over first? Or sat up before Robb?

 

hahaha!

Lets narrow my intention down a bit! I think Luwin began utilizing the phrase "bastards grow up faster" to explain Jon's advanced abilities when he was yet a "babe in arms". Catelyn must have thought - at least at one time - that Jon was maybe older than Robb, otherwise she wouldn't have suspected Ashara and neither would the housekeeping staff. Where did this rumor come from if not from the Harrenhal tourney? Eliminate the story of Ned and Ashara dancing together and there's not another instance where Ned can be tied to Ashara until he returns Arthur's sword when Ashara was said to jump from a tower soon after. So Catelyn couldn't have worried that Ned fathered Jon during his trip to Starfall.

As the two boys grew up together, Jon was still showing signs of being developmentally advanced even though Robb's muscular build made the two boys look the same age. Observing them together would reveal two contradicting messages. They are presented as being about the same age, but Jon's advanced abilities may indicate that he is older, and his slender build disguises his age.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

 

 

Apparently it's something Maester Luwin says. Does the text have to include him saying it to Catelyn to confirm that she had heard him say it?

 

 

 

Yes, it does. In general, if someone is going to make an argument for something, it should be expected that they demonstrate support for that argument using the text.

To be sure, it doesn't need to be a scene of Luwin saying, "Y'know, Lady Catelyn, bastards grow up faster than other children", with her nodding sagely. But there should be something - and there simply isn't. Catelyn doesn't express that idea at all, either in words or in her thoughts. If Luwin did say that to her, off-screen so to speak, then it didn't make any impression on her at all. So as an argument for that particular interpretation of Luwin's words, it's pretty weak.

What's more plausible, to me, about that saying is that Luwin did say it - but only to Jon, for the purpose of preparing him and toughening him up to face the inevitable adversities that await all bastard-born in his culture. My textual support for this plausibility, is that the only times the idea comes up is with Jon: when he repeats it from Luwin and when he thinks it, including the contexts in which he repeats and especially the occasion when he remembers it later. (It's of a piece with "kill the boy and let the man be born", now that I think about it.)