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Angel Eyes

Protective Parents: Is Ned Stark any better than Lysa Arryn?

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So thought about fostering in particular and being overprotective: Is Ned Stark any better than Lysa Arryn because he didn't trust his children to other households? Robb could have been fostered out and get a better grasp of the North (if there's exception to heirs, Brandon Stark was fostered to Barrowton and Robert Baratheon to the Eyrie), Jon didn't need to be under Catelyn's baleful gaze, to give a couple examples.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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Ned had a positive experience (sort of) by being fostered. For example, he loved Jon Arryn and Robert. But he also missed out on growing up beside his sister and brothers. And with what happened to his family, Ned might have huge regrets of not having grown up closer to his sister.

Both Ned, his father and his brother used Lyanna as a pawn to wed to Robert for different reasons: his father for political alliance reasons, Ned to make Robert his "brother" for real, and Brandon "because his sister was supposed to do what was expected of her". None of them knew her well. None of them considered her interests and character, and imo that may be what Ned may see as the root cause to the loss of most of his family. And if Benjen knew more, was unsurprised, it would confirm in Ned's mind that the sole brother who grew up with Lyanna at WF, knew her best.

Hence, this could be a big motivation for why Ned did not consider fostering Robb, especially since his other sons are younger than both Sansa and Arya.

Fostering Jon was out of the question, for Ned clearly wanted a tight control over the gossip of Jon. But most importantly, he wanted Robb and Jon to bond like brothers, so Jon would never be Robb's rival. So, he did not want to separate Jon and Robb from one another, but instead create a bond like the one Ned had with Robert. If he fostered Jon out to someone else, Jon would grow up with emotional bonds that link him to the political interests of other houses, not Robb. Foster Robb out, and it might be perceived as Ned favoring Jon. Either way, creating distance between Robb and Jon would likely have caused a dangerous rivalry and envy. Sure, Ned could never prevent Jon from feeling a type of envy of not being trueborn, but he could ensure that Jon's love for Robb would outmatch any such envy.

And then there's Catelyn to take into account. The Tullys do not seem to foster their children out. And imagine the trouble Ned would be in with his wife, if say he fostered Robb to a vassal, but keep Jon at WF? And while Cat wanted and expected Jon to grow up someplace else, to make it clear to Jon he had no rights, she also failed to recognize how Jon growing up with Robb did ensure that Jon never would actually contemplate to usurp Robb or even any other of Ned's children. Even when Stannis holds WF as carrot on a golden platter before Jon, he still proclaims Sansa has more right to it than he does. It would be far easier for Jon to say yes to such a proposal if Ned's children with Cat were but people he only knew by name.

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2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Both Ned, his father and his brother used Lyanna as a pawn to wed to Robert for different reasons: his father for political alliance reasons, Ned to make Robert his "brother" for real, and Brandon "because his sister was supposed to do what was expected of her". None of them knew her well. None of them considered her interests and character, and imo that may be what Ned may see as the root cause to the loss of most of his family. And if Benjen knew more, was unsurprised, it would confirm in Ned's mind that the sole brother who grew up with Lyanna at WF, knew her best.

As far as we know the only ones who had voice over the match were Robert and  RRickar, so even if they knew her well... What could they do??

Wasn't Benjen unsurprised?? I think that blaming on others Lyanna's (possible) actions is the very easy way.

 

Comparing Ned and  Lysa is very wrong to me, both make blunders but Lysa was a paranoid  crazy parent and no, not being fostered is not bad per se.

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4 hours ago, frenin said:

As far as we know the only ones who had voice over the match were Robert and  RRickar, so even if they knew her well... What could they do??

Wasn't Benjen unsurprised?? I think that blaming on others Lyanna's (possible) actions is the very easy way.

I'm not blaming others. It's got nothing to do with "blame". It's just not unnatural for people who survived a tragedy to want to avoid something like that to happen again, and therefore make choices that are different than their predecessors. Did you never gained some painful life experience and then decided to not "make the same mistakes (others made)", despite the fact that those "mistakes" aren't responsible for it? Never experienced a desire to try and have more control over possible future events in that way?

That's all I'm trying to point out about Ned. It's not my opinion that Rickard, Brandon or Ned are to blame for Lyanna's disappearance. But it's my opinion that Ned may believe he could avoid a repeat of it, by making different choices about fostering. The fact that at some point Ned Stark remembers his sister's words about Robert, and remembers how easily young Ned dismissed her misgivings, and later thinks she might have been more right than he was at the time, heavily suggests that yes, Ned might have regrets and "feel" responsible... even if he is not.

Nevertheless, while I don't "blame" Ned, Brandon and Rickard... their reasons for backing, supporting, wishing or arranging (whatever it was dependent on the male character) a marriage between Lyanna and Robert was entirely for their own sake, not Lyanna's. That's not "blame". It's just spelling out their motivations for wanting the marriage.

As for Benjen. I don't know whether he was surprised or not. But it is a possibility that Benjen may have known more. If so, then this would aggrevate Ned's mindset on how to avoid a repeat. Of course, how much it cannot be avoided is made clear in Sansa's case. Despite having serious misgivings about Joffrey, Ned is quite reluctant to break off the engagement, and not only because it's Robert's wish. Sansa wishing for him has also a big role in his reluctance.

 

Edited by sweetsunray

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1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I'm not blaming others. It's got nothing to do with "blame". It's just not unnatural for people who survived a tragedy to want to avoid something like that to happen again, and therefore make choices that are different than their predecessors. Did you never gained some painful life experience and then decided to not "make the same mistakes (others made)", despite the fact that those "mistakes" aren't responsible for it? Never experienced a desire to try and have more control over possible future events in that way?

That's all I'm trying to point out about Ned. It's not my opinion that Rickard, Brandon or Ned are to blame for Lyanna's disappearance. But it's my opinion that Ned may believe he could avoid a repeat of it, by making different choices about fostering. The fact that at some point Ned Stark remembers his sister's words about Robert, and remembers how easily young Ned dismissed her misgivings, and later thinks she might have been more right than he was at the time, heavily suggests that yes, Ned might have regrets and "feel" responsible... even if he is not.

Nevertheless, while I don't "blame" Ned, Brandon and Rickard... their reasons for backing, supporting, wishing or arranging (whatever it was dependent on the male character) a marriage between Lyanna and Robert was entirely for their own sake, not Lyanna's. That's not "blame". It's just spelling out their motivations for wanting the marriage.

As for Benjen. I don't know whether he was surprised or not. But it is a possibility that Benjen may have known more. If so, then this would aggrevate Ned's mindset on how to avoid a repeat. Of course, how much it cannot be avoided is made clear in Sansa's case. Despite having serious misgivings about Joffrey, Ned is quite reluctant to break off the engagement, and not only because it's Robert's wish. Sansa wishing for him has also a big role in his reluctance.

 

But at this point we don't know whether he was moved by it or not, he may simply wanted to have his kids closer and  whatever life lesson  Robb learned from his father, what remained was, House first, anything else, later.

 

We don't even know if Brandon and  Ned wanted or had anything to do with the bethrothal, the only ones who wanted were Robert and Rickard.

Nor do i understand how the match wasn't for Lyanna's either, Robert was Lord of Storm's End and  cousin of the royal  family, what better matches  than him are?? 

Whatever you purposefuly do it or not, you're blaming them for Lyanna's actions, you don't even know what their stance or reasons were.

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44 minutes ago, frenin said:

We don't even know if Brandon and  Ned wanted or had anything to do with the bethrothal, the only ones who wanted were Robert and Rickard.

We know that Ned advocated for Robert with Lyanna, and in aGoT he admits to himself in a circumvent way that Lyanna was correct in her assessment. In the memory of the conversation, Ned dismisses Lyanna's misgivings with what comes down to "it'll all work out." It comes across as Ned blaming himself for not really listening to Lyanna. Survivors tend to blame themselves for "missing the signs".

Ned brought Robert's suit to WF. So, Robert did not communicate with Rickard directly. Ned was the messenger and the mediator of the match made between his father and Robert. That same night Lyanna betrays her doubts about Robert, though Rikcard already agreed to it, and per Ned's dismissive response of it, we can therefore safely conclude he truly wanted to sell the marriage. He was more than messenger and mediator, but a proponent of it.

Brandon's response to the crowning of Lyanna shows he was a supporter of the wedding plans, and as we learn via Lady Dustin's confession, a hypocrite. Brandon had no issue deflowering Lady Dustin while betrothed, but he reacted deeply insulted over Rhaegar giving Lyanna the crown of the Queen of Love and Beauty, for she was already betrothed to Robert (while Robert didn't mind it much at all, or minded Lyanna much). So, Brandon acted as a proponent as well. 

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Nor do i understand how the match wasn't for Lyanna's either, Robert was Lord of Storm's End and  cousin of the royal  family, what better matches  than him are?? 

A 100 years before it, brothers of a Stark daughter heavily protested their sister being wed to a southern lord (a Royce, who still boast being First Men rather than Andals). The North is not the South, and matches are more than just "be a lady of a big ass castle, doesn't matter where". Cat had a very hard time adjusting to the North, but ultimately she moves from an environment that is less restrictive on women. Lyanna was to move to a region where the Faith and knights are even more restrictive on a woman.

Quote

Whatever you purposefuly do it or not, you're blaming them for Lyanna's actions, you don't even know what their stance or reasons were.

We can infer their stance. They did not protest against the match as some of their ancestors once did for their Stark sister. Ned was the mediator who proposed the match to his father in person and who dismissed his sister's misgivings. Brandon was more upset during the HH tourney than Robert even was. It doesn't make them responsible of Lyanna's potential choices, let alone Rhaegar's, but it does create a situation where Lyanna's character, personality and emotional well being were dismissed and disregarded. In Ned's case it was done with the best, but misguided rose-colored glasses about Robert's character. In Brandon's case because he's a hypocrite when it comes to a woman's honor. Pointing out how they failed Lyanna as brothers in certain ways is just that. It still doesn't make them responsible of her choices, let alone Rhaegar's.

Now I am capable of seeing weaknesses or failures in one aspect without confusing it with actual responsibilities in later events. Apparently you cannot. That is your problem. Not mine.

Edited by sweetsunray

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42 minutes ago, frenin said:

But at this point we don't know whether he was moved by it or not, he may simply wanted to have his kids closer and  whatever life lesson  Robb learned from his father, what remained was, House first, anything else, later.

 

We don't even know if Brandon and  Ned wanted or had anything to do with the betrothal, the only ones who wanted were Robert and Rickard.

Nor do i understand how the match wasn't for Lyanna's either, Robert was Lord of Storm's End and  cousin of the royal  family, what better matches  than him are??

Other matches: Jaime Lannister? The heir to Casterly Rock, whose father is Hand of the King (I'm suggesting this for a time when Cersei hadn't yet gotten her claws into Jaime and convinced him to become a Kingsguard and Tywin is Hand until Jaime becomes a Kingsguard), a veteran of the Kingswood Brotherhood Campaign (as far as I known Robert has no combat experience until Robert's Rebellion), and wouldn't have to travel as far for a visit.

Sometimes I wonder if Robert's betrothal to Lyanna was a stupid idea. Rickard really risked her becoming a malicious creature like Cersei.

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8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

 

Both Ned, his father and his brother used Lyanna as a pawn to wed to Robert for different reasons: his father for political alliance reasons, Ned to make Robert his "brother" for real, and Brandon "because his sister was supposed to do what was expected of her"

I haven't read the whole thread, or your whole post, yet. And I don't want to sound argumentative, really, but what textual evidence do you have for this?

I just finished your post and agree with everything you have to say, but am not sure where you got what I quoted. You state it as fact and I don't remember reading any of it in the books. It's been a while since my last re-read, and I could be completely wrong.

Edited by Travis
to add my thoughts after finishing post.

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46 minutes ago, frenin said:

Nor do i understand how the match wasn't for Lyanna's either, Robert was Lord of Storm's End and  cousin of the royal  family, what better matches  than him are?? 

It's a brilliant match for Lyanna, provided that no-one takes into account what she might think or want for herself. None of the men in her life, including Robert Baratheon, took any of that into account. Ned only took her thoughts into account enough to dismiss them. There's no indication that anyone else did even that much.

It's a brilliant match if one accepts that "lie still and think of Winterfell" is the only proper way for a woman to live her life.

 

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1 minute ago, Travis said:

I haven't read the whole thread, or the whole OP yet, really. And I don't want to sound argumentative, really, but what textual evidence do you have for this?

OP here, but judging by what we read, Ned liked to keep his kids close, and Lysa willingly caused the war because she wanted to keep her son close.

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24 minutes ago, Travis said:

I haven't read the whole thread, or your whole post, yet. And I don't want to sound argumentative, really, but what textual evidence do you have for this?

See answer prior to your post: Ned brought Robert's suit to Rickard at WF. He was the messenger, the mediator and the proposer of the match. Per Ned's reply to Lyanna later that night when she voiced her misgivings, Ned had never questioned the match he proposed to his father and not afterwards either. Ned's bromance with Robert is all over aGoT.

Brandon's response to Rhaegar crowning Lyanna at HH, the alleged reason for it, but then also learning he deflowered Barbrey while betrothed to Cat and then also imo "lying" that he didn't feel the same for Cat as he felt for Barbrey. Pretty sure, Brandon neither loved Barbrey or Cat, but just loved to get a deflowering tag on Barbrey while making sure he had a virgin like Cat for a wife. Brandon didn't care about Lyanna either imo. Just how it could reflect on him.

Beyond that we know via the World Book that historically Stark brothers didn't mind protesting a marriage deal their father made for their sister, if they were against it.

Edited by sweetsunray

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30 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Ned brought Robert's suit to WF. So, Robert did not communicate with Rickard directly. Ned was the messenger and the mediator of the match made between his father and Robert. 

Not trying to be argumentative here, but where is the textual evidence for this? Not saying it doesn't exist, I'm just not aware of it.

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4 minutes ago, Travis said:

Not trying to be argumentative here, but where is the textual evidence for this? Not saying it doesn't exist, I'm just not aware of it.

There's something in A World of Ice and Fire that says that it was Ned's idea (not really sure if this is one of his better ideas).

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6 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

There's something in A World of Ice and Fire that says that it was Ned's idea (not really sure if this is one of his better ideas).

Okay. Thanks. A World of Ice and Fire is the only book I have not read. Only portions of it from online discussions.

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9 minutes ago, Travis said:

Not trying to be argumentative here, but where is the textual evidence for this? Not saying it doesn't exist, I'm just not aware of it.

A World of Ice and Fire app:

"Of his siblings, Eddard loves his sister Lyanna best, and when Robert conceives a passion for her and asks for her hand in marriage, he is delighted. Eddard carries the proposal to his father, Lord Rickard, who agrees to the betrothal. Eddard assures Lyanna that Robert is a good man though she questions Eddard about the bastard daughter Robert has recently fathered in the Vale."

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1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

A World of Ice and Fire app:

"Of his siblings, Eddard loves his sister Lyanna best, and when Robert conceives a passion for her and asks for her hand in marriage, he is delighted. Eddard carries the proposal to his father, Lord Rickard, who agrees to the betrothal. Eddard assures Lyanna that Robert is a good man though she questions Eddard about the bastard daughter Robert has recently fathered in the Vale."

Thank you very much. As I said above, this is the only book I haven't read of GRRM's Westerosi world. I shall make an effort to read that.

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33 minutes ago, Travis said:

Thank you very much. As I said above, this is the only book I haven't read of GRRM's Westerosi world. I shall make an effort to read that.

The book is called The World of Ice and Fire. The quote is not in the book but in the the smartphone application based on George's notes, some of which not mentioned in the books, called "A World of Ice and Fire". This is one of those tidbits. Another is how Lyanna used to train on riding tilts. The app is not considered canon by everyone, for it has numerous errata. People use these errata to argue you can ignore any information given in the app. To me that's like saying you cannot argue Jaime's eyes are green, because George once made a mistake by writing that Renly had green eyes instead of blue. :dunno:

Edited by sweetsunray

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4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

We know that Ned advocated for Robert with Lyanna, and in aGoT he admits to himself in a circumvent way that Lyanna was correct in her assessment. In the memory of the conversation, Ned dismisses Lyanna's misgivings with what comes down to "it'll all work out." It comes across as Ned blaming himself for not really listening to Lyanna. Survivors tend to blame themselves for "missing the signs".

Ned saying to Lyanna, he'll stop whoring once you're married, Ned saying that Lyanna was right because Robert kept whoring when he didn't even recognize his best friend anymore seems quite ludicrous to me but who cares, Ned is making the best out of the situation, there is nothing Ned can do to break the bethrothal, even when i agree that he might be happy with it, that's not in Ned's hand, what it is however is trying to calm Lyanna down.

Even then Ned, lamenting not having listened to Lyanna in KL don't tell us much about how that  influenced the raising of the kids. If Ned agrees with Lyanna 15 years later and when 3 of his kids are already teenagers, it tells us almost nothing imo.

 

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Ned brought Robert's suit to WF. So, Robert did not communicate with Rickard directly. Ned was the messenger and the mediator of the match made between his father and Robert. That same night Lyanna betrays her doubts about Robert, though Rikcard already agreed to it, and per Ned's dismissive response of it, we can therefore safely conclude he truly wanted to sell the marriage. He was more than messenger and mediator, but a proponent of it.

 

I never really considered the App as canon, but at least there is a confirmation that Ned had something to do with the marriage, but yet again, he just carrried the proposal to his father.

 

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

 Brandon's response to the crowning of Lyanna shows he was a supporter of the wedding plans, and as we learn via Lady Dustin's confession, a hypocrite. Brandon had no issue deflowering Lady Dustin while betrothed, but he reacted deeply insulted over Rhaegar giving Lyanna the crown of the Queen of Love and Beauty, for she was already betrothed to Robert (while Robert didn't mind it much at all, or minded Lyanna much). So, Brandon acted as a proponent as well. 

Quote

Or that he didn't want to see his sister dishonored... Yeah,the man was a hypocrite but you know the saying, do as i say not as i do.

Brandon could be dishonoring 100 girls per day that he would react the same way, because of course, he wouldn't want the same fate for his sister, that you go around doing bad things don't mean you want the same things happening to your family.

At this point we don't know nothing about Brandon' stance and it's unlikely that he could act like a proponent when we don't even know they knew each other prior Harrenhall.

 

 

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

A 100 years before it, brothers of a Stark daughter heavily protested their sister being wed to a southern lord (a Royce, who still boast being First Men rather than Andals). The North is not the South, and matches are more than just "be a lady of a big ass castle, doesn't matter where". Cat had a very hard time adjusting to the North, but ultimately she moves from an environment that is less restrictive on women. Lyanna was to move to a region where the Faith and knights are even more restrictive on a woman.

Quote

The brothers of said Lady Stark protested because they didn't want to have nothing with the south and because they didn't like much the Targs who had made them submit, it wasn't a Royce, it was an Arryn anyway, Ronnel Arryn. Not only the brother protested,  but een Torrhen Stark did,  because that marrriage was arranged by the Targs against the Starks wishes.

What is the difference between the North and the South?? Because the North seems as ladies of big ass casrles as the south, Cat ha a very time adjusting because the culture is different, not because the treat on women is much, if any, different.

Is not Robert a good match then??

 

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

We can infer their stance. They did not protest against the match as some of their ancestors once did for their Stark sister. Ned was the mediator who proposed the match to his father in person and who dismissed his sister's misgivings. Brandon was more upset during the HH tourney than Robert even was. It doesn't make them responsible of Lyanna's potential choices, let alone Rhaegar's, but it does create a situation where Lyanna's character, personality and emotional well being were dismissed and disregarded. In Ned's case it was done with the best, but misguided rose-colored glasses about Robert's character. In Brandon's case because he's a hypocrite when it comes to a woman's honor. Pointing out how they failed Lyanna as brothers in certain ways is just that. It still doesn't make them responsible of her choices, let alone Rhaegar's.

Now I am capable of seeing weaknesses or failures in one aspect without confusing it with actual responsibilities in later events. Apparently you cannot. That is your problem. Not mine.

You infer too much it seems.

The inmediately post Aegon's conquest context is far different than a 200 hundreds year later stable realm, the distrustful anti targaryen and isolationist Starks of then are different the openly opening Rickard,  Ned is the proposer of the bethrothal but once is done, he can't do nothing more than calming Lyanna in a situation that is then out of their hands.

But they didn't fail Lyanna as brothers, Ned gave her his opinion of Robert, not rose tinted and the fact that Robert effectively changed a lot after the Robellion shows how wrong the statement is, Brandon being angry over the QLAB affair makes hima hypocrite, but don't make him wrong for being upset nor made the situation right, we're told that both Ned and Robert were as angry as Brandon but they just were calmer. That's the ultimate ad hominem.

 

4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Other matches: Jaime Lannister? The heir to Casterly Rock, whose father is Hand of the King (I'm suggesting this for a time when Cersei hadn't yet gotten her claws into Jaime and convinced him to become a Kingsguard and Tywin is Hand until Jaime becomes a Kingsguard), a veteran of the Kingswood Brotherhood Campaign (as far as I known Robert has no combat experience until Robert's Rebellion), and wouldn't have to travel as far for a visit.

Sometimes I wonder if Robert's betrothal to Lyanna was a stupid idea. Rickard really risked her becoming a malicious creature like Cersei.

By that point iirc the beef between Tywin and Aerys was well known and Robert and the royal family ¿seemed? to get along well besides being cousins, ultimately, Robert had royal blood and Jaime din't but it should go either way, btw the Kingswood campaign was serious enough to be considered veteran?? 

The context surrounding both bethrothals couldn't be more different, that's like believing that a match would be the same if repeated twice.

 

4 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

It's a brilliant match for Lyanna, provided that no-one takes into account what she might think or want for herself. None of the men in her life, including Robert Baratheon, took any of that into account. Ned only took her thoughts into account enough to dismiss them. There's no indication that anyone else did even that much.

It's a brilliant match if one accepts that "lie still and think of Winterfell" is the only proper way for a woman to live her life.

Not a woman a noble, neither Brandon or Ned were asked, we just assumed they liked the idea?? There are extremely few love matches in Westeros, usually the matches are arranged.

I' mpersonally not too bothered with that, nobility in Westeros is an insane privilege, if the price to pay is a forced married... They can always walk away and leaving behind their riches, power and privilege but i can't feel pity because they want to have the cake and eat it too, unless ofc the deal are nutjobs.

 

 

Edited by frenin

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9 minutes ago, frenin said:

Robert effectively changed a lot after the Robellion shows how wrong the statement is

Robert had plenty of women and bastards while his Lyanna was "abducted and being raped", such as Bella and Gendry. Robert never changed. He just kept on doing what he always did. The sole difference is that now Robert blames it on Lyanna's death and being married to Cersei.

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

what it is however is trying to calm Lyanna down.

Lyanna was calm in that conversation and very astute. So, basically you think that telling lies as if you're talking to a child is a good option?

Hmmm, then why does Ned not lie to Arya so many years later? He doesn't "calm" her down and tell her it's going to be all fine and right. Instead he has an honest heart to heart about the seriousness of the situation and the potential danger and consequences. Sounds like a man who with experience in life attempts to do it different now.

23 minutes ago, frenin said:

The inmediately post Aegon's conquest context is far different than a 200 hundreds year later stable realm, the distrustful anti targaryen and isolationist Starks of then are different the openly opening Rickard

According to Lady Barbrey it's more the maester's doing that Rickard was so southron. You know those maesters of the Citadel who want to deny magic, of the Faith who try to get rod of the Old Gods, Greenseers and skinchangers and claim they're all just a bunch of Old Nan's fairytales. It's not about openness and/ore a peaceful realm. It's about efforts to conquer the North in a way that neither Andal or even Targs succeeded in.

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24 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Robert had plenty of women and bastards while his Lyanna was "abducted and being raped", such as Bella and Gendry. Robert never changed. He just kept on doing what he always did. The sole difference is that now Robert blames it on Lyanna's death and being married to Cersei.

52 minutes ago, frenin said:

The only bastard and the only time Robert fucked around, that we know of,  is Bella and the Battle of the Bells, a moment i'd say was quite desperate and he thought he  was about to die and he would've if not for the narrative having it the other way tbh, Gendry was fathered in KL, after  Robert had taken over and Lyanna was dead.

I don't really think that Robert would stop, i do think however that there could be far better evidences of himnot stopping,  i have my own opinion about the rest but it's not relevant to the point.

 

32 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Lyanna was calm in that conversation and very astute. So, basically you think that telling lies as if you're talking to a child is a good option?

 

I don't consider her very astute in that, given that she was drawing conclussions of a bachelor Robert who father his daughter around the time his parents had just dead.

Ned needed to calm her in her concerns, he didn't do a good job, btw, who is saying that Ned was lying??

 

35 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 Hmmm, then why does Ned not lie to Arya so many years later? He doesn't "calm" her down and tell her it's going to be all fine and right. Instead he has an honest heart to heart about the seriousness of the situation and the potential danger and consequences. Sounds like a man who with experience in life attempts to do it different now.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Sounds like the situations are as similar as night and day.

 

37 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

According to Lady Barbrey it's more the maester's doing that Rickard was so southron. You know those maesters of the Citadel who want to deny magic, of the Faith who try to get rod of the Old Gods, Greenseers and skinchangers and claim they're all just a bunch of Old Nan's fairytales. It's not about openness and/ore a peaceful realm. It's about efforts to conquer the North in a way that neither Andal or even Targs succeeded in.

According to Barbs, as biased and as sore she is and to Marwyn as biased and sore as he is.

Are the maesters even aware about the North's magic?? Everything was pretty calm there until Ne's kids showed up, btw with a ciuple of marriages you don't get rid of the Old gods, nor the maesters have ever been religious zealots.

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