Protective Parents: Is Ned Stark any better than Lysa Arryn?

[sweetsunray]

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

The only bastard and the only time Robert fucked around, that we know of,  is Bella and the Battle of the Bells, a moment i'd say was quite desperate and he thought he  was about to die and he would've if not for the narrative having it the other way tbh, Gendry was fathered in KL, after  Robert had taken over and Lyanna was dead.

He fucked the whole personnel at the Peach. Only one of them had a child.

Gendry is of an age that implies he was fathered in KL while Ned was still searching for Lyanna, and thus Robert basically fucked around while his brother in law to be went in search of Lyanna, after they'd won the war and Robert killed Rhaegar.

9 minutes ago, frenin said:

I don't consider her very astute in that, given that she was drawing conclussions of a bachelor Robert who father his daughter around the time his parents had just dead.

More excuses: "poor guy... he was grieving his parents, his life was under threat, and he was grieving Lyanna, so he fucked around. Those were special circumstances!"

My answer: What next? "He fell and hurt his knee"? What a load of horseshit. When you read the tales of the Peach, Robert had fun and wasn't rattling in his boots from fear from JonCon. Ned didn't fuck a whole brothel when he learned his brother and father were killed by Aerys.

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

who is saying that Ned was lying??

Ned wasn't actively lying. He believed what he said to Lyanna about Robert. As I said rose-tinted glasses. Given his youth and friendship I can understand it. He didn't give Lyanna his answer "to calm" her, but because he truly believed Robert loved her and would settle down.

You are the one saying a brother's job is to "calm" his sister about her concerns about her marriage partner as if she's kid. I conclude you also mean a brother should do that even when those words are lies. Let me puke some more:

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

Sounds like the situations are as similar as night and day.

They apply to your general statement that men should "calm" women's concerns with "it's going to be all right!"

21 minutes ago, frenin said:

According to Barbs, as biased and as sore she is and to Marwyn as biased and sore as he is.

And based on Maester Luwin drugging Bran to make him stop talk about nightmares and dreams in aCoK. And an extensive analysis on the symbolism of several of the scenes with the Reed siblings in the godswood that are a reversal of the legend of "St. George and the dragon" (the foundation for Serwyn and the Mirror Shield in the series). In the St. George legend the goal is to convert pagans to Christianity in exchange for killing the dragon who threatens to poison the well. The chapter of the siblings in the godswood has many references to it (Meera catching Summer with her net/girdle for one), but also reversals (Summer is set free instead of killed). The reversals are consistent with the necessary goal of converting Bran to the Old Gods and away from the Faith of his mother and Luwin's lies.

And why would Marwyn be sore? Because the Citadel cheer him on?

Sure Barbrey is sore. Doesn't mean she's wrong about the maester whispering in Rickard's ears, and how he was the son of an archmaester and a Hightower daughter.

21 minutes ago, frenin said:

Are the maesters even aware about the North's magic?? Everything was pretty calm there until Ne's kids showed up, btw with a ciuple of marriages you don't get rid of the Old gods, nor the maesters have ever been religious zealots.

Euhm, with a couple of marriages the Andals converted the southern First Men outside of the Vale and RL into the Faith. It's actually a very successful tactic, even in our world and histories: takes 1 generation, aka 1 marriage. 

With just 1 marriage of Ned to Cat you suddenly have a sept and a septon there, and a Stark son who's scared of the heart tree (as much as his mother is), but isn't scared to climb high tall towers. Sansa leans heavily towards the Faith. It's not until her own ordeal that she starts to consider the Old Gods more and more. Hell, even Ned has come to dismiss much of his ancestral beliefs as fairytales, after being "fostered" to an Arryn despite the fact that he prays to the Old Gods.

Yes, the Citadel is aware about the North's magic. They had maesters who sent reports about the Nightfort (and thus the Black Gate), but this is surpressed from general knowledge. And like several others I don't think it's a coincidence that the direwolves weren't seen south of the Wall since the time Alysanna had the NW move to another new castle other than the Nightfort. Hell, maester Yandel who normally dismisses certain tales as erronous and conflation of histories by smallfolk and singers, strangely enough perpetuates the tales of Jaejaerys and Alysanna defeating the wildlings with their dragons North of the Wall, when Fire and Blood gives us a very different account: the Starks had defeated the wildlings at the cost of life of the prior Lord Stark. Alysanne showed up AFTER these events. And when she visited the Wall, the dragons refused or couldn't fly across the Wall. This fact disturbed Alysanne. Jaehaerys came even later than that and didn't even go to the Wall. Now why does Yandel never try to correct the lie about Alysanne and Jaegaerys at the Wall? Because the truth would imply the Wall has magic, and the Citadel doesn't like that.

The maesters may not be religious zealots, but they are tied to the Faith.

[frenin]

14 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

He fucked the whole personnel at the Peach. Only one of them had a child.

Gendry is of an age that implies he was fathered in KL while Ned was still searching for Lyanna, and thus Robert basically fucked around while his brother in law to be went in search of Lyanna, after they'd won the war and Robert killed Rhaegar.

He did, he also thought he was about to die, you know in the middle of a war you don't think you're going to live to see the end you jusy don't think of the repercussions of your actions in the future because there is no future for you.

Gendry is of an age that implies whatever you wabt to believe but no, your bias is not an evience tho.

 

17 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

More excuses: "poor guy... he was grieving his parents, his life was under threat, and he was grieving Lyanna, so he fucked around. Those were special circumstances!"

My answer: What next? "He fell and hurt his knee"? What a load of horseshit. When you read the tales of the Peach, Robert had fun and wasn't rattling in his boots from fear from JonCon. Ned didn't fuck a whole brothel when he learned his brother and father were killed by Aerys.

 Your answer might be whatever or bs etc, doesn't change the fact that we're humans and our actions in moments of grief and despair aren't the actions we'd take being calm and level headed,  this should be incredibly easy to understand but i think that it's because we are talking about a fiction character. 

Do you really believe that Robert who was completely incomunicated with the rest of the rebels and was literally being chased down by a huge army and completely alone, house by house, wouldn't be in the believe that "this is it"?? Honestly.

I think that her words are stupid, not only because they an absolute bs generalization, but because she's blaming someone for fucking around while being a bachelor.

Don't think there was a whole brother near the Eyrie anyway, nor we do know what Ned did to ease his pain, you might be surprised. Anyway, Ned didn't do it,  is Robert's reaction any less natural?? 

 

31 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Ned wasn't actively lying. He believed what he said to Lyanna about Robert. As I said rose-tinted glasses. Given his youth and friendship I can understand it. He didn't give Lyanna his answer "to calm" her, but because he truly believed Robert loved her and would settle down.

 

I didn't said Ned didn't believed his words, you did, i said that those words were aimed to calm her and remove the worries from her.

 

37 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 You are the one saying a brother's job is to "calm" his sister about her concerns about her marriage partner as if she's kid. I conclude you also mean a brother should do that even when those words are lies. Let me puke some more: 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

You can puke as much as you want, this is your own strawman.

 

38 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

They apply to your general statement that men should "calm" women's concerns with "it's going to be all right!"

1 hour ago, frenin said:

LMAO, punching the strawman good because there are no more arguments right??

 

40 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And based on Maester Luwin drugging Bran to make him stop talk about nightmares and dreams in aCoK. And an extensive analysis on the symbolism of several of the scenes with the Reed siblings in the godswood that are a reversal of the legend of "St. George and the dragon" (the foundation for Serwyn and the Mirror Shield in the series). In the St. George legend the goal is to convert pagans to Christianity in exchange for killing the dragon who threatens to poison the well. The chapter of the siblings in the godswood has many references to it (Meera catching Summer with her net/girdle for one), but also reversals (Summer is set free instead of killed). The reversals are consistent with the necessary goal of converting Bran to the Old Gods and away from the Faith of his mother and Luwin's lies.

... Maybe because Luwin believes that's the best for Bran instead of because he thinks he's awakening Cthulhu and he needs to be stopped no matter what¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡ Lin is wrong, not lying on purpose.

... And again, your own good bias, 

 

45 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And why would Marwyn be sore? Because the Citadel cheer him on?

 

Because the Citadel considers him a freak and he likes to believe is because a conspirancy...  Vaegon got to be Archmaester just fine and Aemon left own his own volition and against all warnings for politic reasons.

 

47 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 Sure Barbrey is sore. Doesn't mean she's wrong about the maester whispering in Rickard's ears, and how he was the son of an archmaester and a Hightower daughter.

Quote

It means she's seeing ghosts everywhere and wants to blame on evertone her being denied the Stark name she craves.

There rest is more than irrelevant.

 

 

52 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Euhm, with a couple of marriages the Andals converted the southern First Men outside of the Vale and RL into the Faith. It's actually a very successful tactic, even in our world and histories: takes 1 generation, aka 1 marriage. 

With just 1 marriage of Ned to Cat you suddenly have a sept and a septon there, and a Stark son who's scared of the heart tree (as much as his mother is), but isn't scared to climb high tall towers. Sansa leans heavily towards the Faith. It's not until her own ordeal that she starts to consider the Old Gods more and more. Hell, even Ned has come to dismiss much of his ancestral beliefs as fairytales, after being "fostered" to an Arryn despite the fact that he prays to the Old Gods.

With a couple of marriages and centuries of assimilation and so and those couple of marriages were arranged where those Kings were ready to forsake the Old Faith, the Manderlys have been intermarriaging with the Northern houses for a millenia and i assure you, the North is still believing in the Old Gods.

So a kid being a kid, because Robb, who is inheriting don't believe in the Seven,  is a proof of the master plot right??

The last part is just ludicrous really,  fosterage has nothing to do with the fact that Old Nan's tales sound and are just fairytales.

 

 

59 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, the Citadel is aware about the North's magic. They had maesters who sent reports about the Nightfort (and thus the Black Gate), but this is surpressed from general knowledge. And like several others I don't think it's a coincidence that the direwolves weren't seen south of the Wall since the time Alysanna had the NW move to another new castle other than the Nightfort. Hell, maester Yandel who normally dismisses certain tales as erronous and conflation of histories by smallfolk and singers, strangely enough perpetuates the tales of Jaejaerys and Alysanna defeating the wildlings with their dragons North of the Wall, when Fire and Blood gives us a very different account: the Starks had defeated the wildlings at the cost of life of the prior Lord Stark. Alysanne showed up AFTER these events. And when she visited the Wall, the dragons refused or couldn't fly across the Wall. This fact disturbed Alysanne. Jaehaerys came even later than that and didn't even go to the Wall. Now why does Yandel never try to correct the lie about Alysanne and Jaegaerys at the Wall? Because the truth would imply the Wall has magic, and the Citadel doesn't like that.

 

... ... ...

If the Citadel didn't like magic and was absolutely hell bent on destroying all, we wouldn't even have the source of Alysanne failing to get past the Wall,  what the Maesters know about the Nightfort?? 

I mean there rest is a bunch of conspiracy theories that i don't really feel like arguing. 

Less to say, Rickard was an opening man, not an isolationist.

 

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

 The maesters may not be religious zealots, but they are tied to the Faith.

No, they lived in the same city, that doesn't mean they give a damn.

[Wall Flower]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

He did, he also thought he was about to die, you know in the middle of a war you don't think you're going to live to see the end you jusy don't think of the repercussions of your actions in the future because there is no future for you.

Gendry is of an age that implies whatever you wabt to believe but no, your bias is not an evience tho.

 

 Your answer might be whatever or bs etc, doesn't change the fact that we're humans and our actions in moments of grief and despair aren't the actions we'd take being calm and level headed,  this should be incredibly easy to understand but i think that it's because we are talking about a fiction character. 

Do you really believe that Robert who was completely incomunicated with the rest of the rebels and was literally being chased down by a huge army and completely alone, house by house, wouldn't be in the believe that "this is it"?? Honestly.

I think that her words are stupid, not only because they an absolute bs generalization, but because she's blaming someone for fucking around while being a bachelor.

Don't think there was a whole brother near the Eyrie anyway, nor we do know what Ned did to ease his pain, you might be surprised. Anyway, Ned didn't do it,  is Robert's reaction any less natural?? 

 

I didn't said Ned didn't believed his words, you did, i said that those words were aimed to calm her and remove the worries from her.

 

You can puke as much as you want, this is your own strawman.

 

LMAO, punching the strawman good because there are no more arguments right??

 

... Maybe because Luwin believes that's the best for Bran instead of because he thinks he's awakening Cthulhu and he needs to be stopped no matter what¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡ Lin is wrong, not lying on purpose.

... And again, your own good bias, 

 

Because the Citadel considers him a freak and he likes to believe is because a conspirancy...  Vaegon got to be Archmaester just fine and Aemon left own his own volition and against all warnings for politic reasons.

 

It means she's seeing ghosts everywhere and wants to blame on evertone her being denied the Stark name she craves.

There rest is more than irrelevant.

 

 

With a couple of marriages and centuries of assimilation and so and those couple of marriages were arranged where those Kings were ready to forsake the Old Faith, the Manderlys have been intermarriaging with the Northern houses for a millenia and i assure you, the North is still believing in the Old Gods.

So a kid being a kid, because Robb, who is inheriting don't believe in the Seven,  is a proof of the master plot right??

The last part is just ludicrous really,  fosterage has nothing to do with the fact that Old Nan's tales sound and are just fairytales.

 

 

... ... ...

If the Citadel didn't like magic and was absolutely hell bent on destroying all, we wouldn't even have the source of Alysanne failing to get past the Wall,  what the Maesters know about the Nightfort?? 

I mean there rest is a bunch of conspiracy theories that i don't really feel like arguing. 

Less to say, Rickard was an opening man, not an isolationist.

 

No, they lived in the same city, that doesn't mean they give a damn.

I'm pretty sure that Lyanna was 100% right about Robert and Ned was just being extremely naive in suggesting that Robert would miraculously change his character and personality once he married her. Young Robert was the same whoring, irresponsible, drunk as older Robert, just happier and thinner.

Some Ned quotes:

"Robert had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures'.

"Robert would swear undying love in the morning and forget them before evenfall but Ned Stark kept his vows'.

"He was no Jon Arryn, to curb the wildness of his king and teach him wisdom. Robert would do what he pleased, as he always had, and nothing Ned could say or do would change that."

That's not even touching on the abusive, marital rapist he became in his marriage to Cersei.

If you expect Lyanna to have lain back and just been grateful that she wasn't one of the smallfolk, the same could be said for the king who spent 14 years whining about how miserable it was to be the most powerful and privileged man in the seven kingdoms.

[Mystical]

Comparing Ned and Lysa as parents seems like apples and oranges to me. It's mainly due to the fact that whatever psychosis (or more than one) Lysa developed makes any comparison to Ned a non-starter IMO. Not that Ned didn't have issues and hang-ups influencing how he raised his kids but he is not crazy banana pants like Lysa.

However I wouldn't put either in the 'protective parent' category because they aren't.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

I'm pretty sure that Lyanna was 100% right about Robert and Ned was just being extremely naive in suggesting that Robert would miraculously change his character and personality once he married her. Young Robert was the same whoring, irresponsible, drunk as older Robert, just happier and thinner.

 Some Ned quotes:

"Robert had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures'.

"Robert would swear undying love in the morning and forget them before evenfall but Ned Stark kept his vows'.

"He was no Jon Arryn, to curb the wildness of his king and teach him wisdom. Robert would do what he pleased, as he always had, and nothing Ned could say or do would change that."

Robert was a bachelor and he couold do as he pleased and Lyanna was drawing her conclussions from the fact that Robert had a bastard,  as  I said before i don't really think that Robert would've changed but that don't mean that Lyanna's words aren't justa generalization that are shoved in our throat so hard that one has to puke, both Roberts seems to be very different, one is a young bachelor having fun and the  other is a depressed man burying his worries in a self destructive hedonism that he clearly knows that is going to kill him sooner than later.

Love can change someone's nature and that happens quite often.

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

That's not even touching on the abusive, marital rapist he became in his marriage to Cersei.

 

I mean, different person different contex, different everything but sure.

 

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

 If you expect Lyanna to have lain back and just been grateful that she wasn't one of the smallfolk, the same could be said for the king who spent 14 years whining about how miserable it was to be the most powerful and privileged man in the seven kingdoms.

You're free to judge him as you like, Robert is depressed with his life, that's fine, shit happens, he perfectly knew what the way out was, leave behind everything walk away, he didn't take it and he was miserable for that but he knew that leave it all behind  crown and privilege was the only way for him, that's fine with me, but honestly, I would have preferred him to do it instead of keep harming himself, his "loved ones" and his Kingdom.  I don't expect them to be happy or grateful because that's something that even the biggest privileges can't sort out, I expect them to know that their pivileges comes with a few cons.

Lyanna can whine all she wants, but if she didn't really want the marriage all she had to do was renounce her insane privileges and walk away, Saera Targ did, she didn't want to live under her oppressive father's rule and she eventually left it all to make something on her own.

[raurra]

Not really? Ned isn't very protective of his children at all. Thus, Arya and Sansa are left to do whatever they like. Arya spends her days on the journey down to KL riding out with Mycah (Micah?). Sansa is free to go off alone with Joffrey. Had Ned been just a *little* bit more of a decent parent to his 11 and 9(?) year old daughters (is that Arya's age? I can't remember) perhaps everything would have gone a little smoother.

I don't think it's good practice to foster out your eldest. Robb needed to learn about Winterfell and meet the Northern Lords for him to be a Lord when Ned died.

I feel like Catelyn would not be happy about being apart from any of her children.

[Lady Dacey]

On 12/8/2019 at 5:26 PM, sweetsunray said:

To me that's like saying you cannot argue Jaime's eyes are green, because George once made a mistake by writing that Renly had green eyes instead of blue. 

Agreed. And that might not even be a mistake at all. Renly was wearing full plate armour in green at the time. My eyes are green and sometimes appear to be blue depending on the light and the clothes I’m wearing. 

On 12/8/2019 at 6:38 PM, sweetsunray said:

Hmmm, then why does Ned not lie to Arya so many years later? He doesn't "calm" her down and tell her it's going to be all fine and right. Instead he has an honest heart to heart about the seriousness of the situation and the potential danger and consequences. Sounds like a man who with experien

Yes!

On 12/7/2019 at 11:16 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Is Ned Stark any better than Lysa Arryn because he didn't trust his children to other households?

Keeping to the topic of the thread, yes, he is. We don’t know much about how come none of the Stark kids were fostered, though we can guess some. My line of reasoning is similar to that of @sweetsunray. Eddard Stark wanted to keep to himself. He never thought he’d be a lord, he never wanted to. He is constantly uncomfortable in that position and just wants to keep his family by his side and rule his share of the kingdom smartly. And he was as good a parent as they come in asoiaf-universe, in my opinion. It makes no sense to compare him to Lysa who is the prototypical (and stereotypical too) crazy mom.