When and how Howland Reed will show up?

[rotting sea cow]

Some time ago I started an hypothetical about the possible consequences of the Mad Mouse being Howland Reed in disguise.

TLDR: If the Mad Mouse is Howland Reed, it means that it will be Sansa Stark who will carry the secret of Jon's parentage

Of course, other scenarios are possible so I will read your opinions. What is however clear is that Howland Reed will not show up in the story knocking the doors of Winterfell and asking to speak with Jon. That will be very un-GRRM. He will likely show up in some surprising way, but how and when is unclear for me, besides my proposed scenario.

 

[Lord Varys]

I don't think he'll ever leave the Neck. I think if he shows up people will go to him ... possibly only after the Wall has fallen and the Northmen seek refuge in the Neck.

If he wanted to go somewhere/do something he would have done it a long time ago.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think he'll ever leave the Neck. I think if he shows up people will go to him ... possibly only after the Wall has fallen and the Northmen seek refuge in the Neck.

If he wanted to go somewhere/do something he would have done it a long time ago.

Just so. 

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Some time ago I started an hypothetical about the possible consequences of the Mad Mouse being Howland Reed in disguise.

TLDR: If the Mad Mouse is Howland Reed, it means that it will be Sansa Stark who will carry the secret of Jon's parentage

Of course, other scenarios are possible so I will read your opinions. What is however clear is that Howland Reed will not show up in the story knocking the doors of Winterfell and asking to speak with Jon. That will be very un-GRRM. He will likely show up in some surprising way, but how and when is unclear for me, besides my proposed scenario.

 

There are several who proposed the same:

@bemused proposed it here:

@Blue-Eyed Wolf expanded on it by giving all the arguments why Shadrich makes sense as Howland Reed as well as the "mission", and proposes Sandor to be Ser Byron. https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2017/07/13/their-gallantry-is-yet-to-be-demonstrated-shadrich-morgarth-and-byron/

I back the proposal and so gave Blue-Eyed-Wolf author rights on my blog to publish it in her name.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

7 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

TLDR: If the Mad Mouse is Howland Reed, it means that it will be Sansa Stark who will carry the secret of Jon's parentage

Why would Howland Reed tell Sansa anything about Jon's parentage? He doesn't know her to be able to confide in her something as big and as life-changing as that. 

I don't think Howland is the Mad Mouse. I think the Mad Mouse is exactly who he says he is. I think Howland Reed is at the Isle of Faces, if he is anywhere that's not the Neck.

[Guest]

My problem with Howland being the Mad Mouse is, what took him so long. Rescuing the daughter of your best friend is a nice quest, but she's been in captivity for a long time now. Honestly, for all anyone knew Sansa could've gotten executed anytime after Ned's imprisonment til she escaped on a whim. It seemed very likely before Tyrion showed up. Then Illyen Payne would've killed her if the Tyrells/Tywin didn't drive Stannis off. Joffery also made it very clear he was going to rape her soon in ASOS. Even in the Vale, Sansa came close to Lysa killing her. If Howland was gonna rescue her, he would've started the journey as soon as word got to him that Ned was imprisoned, especially with Tywin focused on Rob's army. Then he could have been in King's Landing sometime in ACOK. Not saying she's safe in the Vale now. Littlefinger will kill/rape her just as easily as Joffery could have. But he would've showed up near King's Landing sooner to come to Sansa's aid, not after she's been taken away.

I still think he may be the Hooded Man. He must want to know what's going on with his kids. If not, it is past time his men become a huge factor in what's going on. Roose probably left Moat Callin in charge of Freys and Dreadfort men. With him so focused on Stannis to the North, and the rest of the Frey's occupied with the Riverlands/untrustworthy vassals/outlaws/infighting the crannogmen have probably already captured Moat Callin. This seems like a good place to prevent any Lannister/Frey reinforcements from marching North. 

If Howland is not in Winterfell, regardless of what most of his men are doing, I think we'll see him in Jamie/Brienes arc. The Brotherhood without Banners is probably seeking refuge in his lands. Greywater Watch seems like a good place for Jamie to stand trial. With the old gods so prominent there, Bran may become a factor in this. Whether or not he'd be pro Stonehearts any means necessary quest for vengeance or uneasy with it like Thoros is up in the air. But regardless of how this trial turns out, be it combat or court, he's probably headed north afterwards to join the fight against the others.

[Mithras]

After Winterfell is liberated and Bran is restored to the seat in TWoW, he will send a raven to Howland to bring Ned's bones for proper burial. That is how he will be introduced, though I think his appearance might be left to ADoS.

Howland Reed is not Mad Mouse. That is quite the wishful thinking. If you think Sansa will have a good time in TWoW, you are in for a big surprise.

For years I am arguing against wishful theories about Sansa just as I did about Dany. Look who is laughing now.

[Curled Finger]

Hrm...well, we are certainly being led to believe that Howland Reed should appear at some point to out Jon as a Targ and possibly reveal the contents of Robb's will.  Presumably Robb's will gives Jon his foothold in the north.  But Jon's already got a foothold in the north so Robb's will only validates and adds to Jon's growing power.   It's not really a huge reveal.   Jon's Targishness, however, could be a huge game changer.   Note could be in this.  What if Jon doesn't want to be a Targ prince or King?  It's possible if not entirely probable.   That said, Reed hasn't shown himself thus far.   I see no reason for him to ride with Brienne or infiltrate Sansa.   Everyone still thinks Sansa is married to a Lannister.  I think Shadrach is the Mad Mouse, bounty hunter.  Period.  He's better there than as a secret identity for Howland Reed.   

I ask myself who benefits the most from knowing Jon's true identity in the landscape before us.  We are told HR is still in the Neck.  We are told LSH disappeared into the neck.   We are told Maege and Glover were sent there.  I'm thinking old Howland Reed will likely stay put but will reveal his secrets to Jamie and Brienne.   It makes sense to me in light of Jamie's promise to Rhaegar and LSH's creepy crown twirling.   

Bran is downloading the history of the world.   Varys and Little Finger have stunning sources of information.   Just because Howland Reed was at the TOJ doesn't mean he is the only one who knows what has happened.  After all the cool what if scenarios of a Jon Targaryen reveal wear away, the only character this could really mean anything to is Dany.  

[rotting sea cow]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think he'll ever leave the Neck. I think if he shows up people will go to him ... possibly only after the Wall has fallen and the Northmen seek refuge in the Neck.

If he wanted to go somewhere/do something he would have done it a long time ago.

Correction: If GRRM wanted him to go somewhere he would have made it so long ago.

GRRM clearly didn't want that, among other reasons because he is one of the few characters who know a particular secret. Another is Benjen, who - coincidentally - was sent beyond the Wall to not return and he will do so - most likely - around the time Jon learns the truth.

These are fictional characters. They do not have wills in their own.

[rotting sea cow]

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Why would Howland Reed tell Sansa anything about Jon's parentage? He doesn't know her to be able to confide in her something as big and as life-changing as that. 

Because he most likely die in the attempt to get Sansa out of the Vale. Because he learned about Robb's will and understood the implications of Jon as heir of Winterfell. Meaning that Sansa must learn the truth to prevent that. 

Of course, all of this assuming that the Mad Mouse is Howland Reed, which is very debatable.  I accept that.

 

[Chris Mormont]

I think Arya will come across Greywater Watch after she returns from Bravos and heads home. 

Any passage across the Narrow sea will bring her south which means she will eventually cross the Neck.  I hope she finds Nymeria and they head North.  The Cragomen keep watch over the Neck and Arya traveling with a Direwolf will get back to HR and he will come out of hiding to help her.  Not sure if he will go North, but she will find Mormont and Glover there and will rally them to come North with her 

[rotting sea cow]

48 minutes ago, Mithras said:

After Winterfell is liberated and Bran is restored to the seat in TWoW, he will send a raven to Howland to bring Ned's bones for proper burial. That is how he will be introduced, though I think his appearance might be left to ADoS.

No raven can reach Greywater Watch. They do not have maesters and ravens cannot find it. And I think the Stark restoration will be more troublesome and will take more time than most people expect. I wrote about that.

 

48 minutes ago, Mithras said:

Howland Reed is not Mad Mouse. That is quite the wishful thinking.

Maybe yes, maybe not

48 minutes ago, Mithras said:

If you think Sansa will have a good time in TWoW, you are in for a big surprise.

 

I never said that! I actually think that Sansa will have a hard time in TWOW. Everything smells to sweet in Alyane I

[rotting sea cow]

1 hour ago, Mooncalf said:

My problem with Howland being the Mad Mouse is, what took him so long. Rescuing the daughter of your best friend is a nice quest, but she's been in captivity for a long time now.

As I stated in the other thread, I think Howland Reed only went in his quest after he learned about Robb's will and the troubles it may cause if the truth ever comes out.  So he went for the last Stark heiress, before it's too late. Amusing that Howland Reed is the Mad Mouse of course, which it isn't clear.

1 hour ago, Mooncalf said:

I still think he may be the Hooded Man.

No, he is not. The Hooded Man is not unusually short, Theon would have noticed it.

 

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Correction: If GRRM wanted him to go somewhere he would have made it so long ago.

GRRM clearly didn't want that, among other reasons because he is one of the few characters who know a particular secret. Another is Benjen, who - coincidentally - was sent beyond the Wall to not return and he will do so - most likely - around the time Jon learns the truth.

These are fictional characters. They do not have wills in their own.

Sure. I just don't see any reason why George should bring Howland out of his swamp if he had sent his children rather than move his own ass.

In fact, I doubt Howland will tell anyone about Jon's parentage. He might elaborate after people ask him about that - but I don't think he himself will bother anyone with that. If George wanted to tell that story he'd not have sent Howland the guy with Robb's will. Something is going to come out of that ... and it wouldn't if they Mormont and Glover knew Jon Snow is neither Robb's brother nor Eddard Stark's son.

The really interesting things Howland knows revolve around the Green Men.

Jon's parentage is pretty much irrelevant - if he is meant by the prophecy he'll do as has been foretold (assuming the prophecy is correct and not a bunch of nonsense), never mind whether he knows who he is or not.

[chrisdaw]

I think he'll drop R+L on Dany (probably before she even knows Jon). Probably an accidental meeting, something like she crash lands in the swamp and Howland's people nurse her back to health. Once Dany knows then that'll set her off to finding the blue flower in the chink of ice, which she'll probably know is at the wall.

The characters R+L=J matter to are Dany, JonCon and Jon himself, to make the reveal to any other character would be to minimise the impact. And JonCon isn't really important enough.

[Mithras]

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

No raven can reach Greywater Watch. They do not have maesters and ravens cannot find it.

I am sure that Bran will be able to send one. Even if that does not happen, he can easily send people too.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Because he most likely die in the attempt to get Sansa out of the Vale. Because he learned about Robb's will and understood the implications of Jon as heir of Winterfell. Meaning that Sansa must learn the truth to prevent that. 

Meaning no disrespect, but this makes no sense.

Howland Reed has nothing to do with Sansa. Howland Reed has to do with the Long Night and old gods and the green men and greenseers.

[rotting sea cow]

13 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

 

Howland Reed has nothing to do with Sansa. Howland Reed has to do with the Long Night and old gods and the green men and greenseers. 

Truly? As far as we know the involvement with the Green Men has had little effect in the story. On the other hand, Howland meeting the Starks at the Harrenha's tourney had huge consequences. He also rode with Ned during the war and if it wasn't for him, Ned would have been killed, with ample consequences too. Finally, he is one of the selected few who know a particular secret.

[rotting sea cow]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure. I just don't see any reason why George should bring Howland out of his swamp if he had sent his children rather than move his own ass.

For the same reason that Benjen hasn't returned and Ned Dayne didn't know all the details about Jon Snow

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In fact, I doubt Howland will tell anyone about Jon's parentage. He might elaborate after people ask him about that - but I don't think he himself will bother anyone with that. If George wanted to tell that story he'd not have sent Howland the guy with Robb's will. Something is going to come out of that ... and it wouldn't if they Mormont and Glover knew Jon Snow is neither Robb's brother nor Eddard Stark's son.

Well, if anyone could see the problems of Robb's will may bring is Howland Reed. I doubt he tell Mormon and Glover about it though.

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The really interesting things Howland knows revolve around the Green Men.

Nah' I don't think it that interesting. I'd be even surprised if we learn what/who they are.

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jon's parentage is pretty much irrelevant - if he is meant by the prophecy he'll do as has been foretold (assuming the prophecy is correct and not a bunch of nonsense), never mind whether he knows who he is or not.

No, it isn't. It has deep repercussions for Jon's story. It has repercussions for the politics in the North. And it has repercussions for Dany's story.

Just to be clear. I don't think that Jon will ever lay a claim to the IT, etc. But the revelations of Jon-son-of-Rhaegar will have profound influence in Dany's mind.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

For the same reason that Benjen hasn't returned and Ned Dayne didn't know all the details about Jon Snow

I don't think Benjen disappeared because of any knowledge the character is supposed to have. His knowledge didn't cause him to prevent Jon from taking the black.

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Well, if anyone could see the problems of Robb's will may bring is Howland Reed. I doubt he tell Mormon and Glover about it though.

Which, if true, should show that he doesn't really care about revealing this secret. He might not even consider it important.

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Nah' I don't think it that interesting. I'd be even surprised if we learn what/who they are.

We do know that George revealed a long time ago that the Green Men will eventually show up. And I definitely think that a secret magical order who was founded back after the Pact and which existed since then is of the most profound importance in that story.

5 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

No, it isn't. It has deep repercussions for Jon's story. It has repercussions for the politics in the North. And it has repercussions for Dany's story.

Just to be clear. I don't think that Jon will ever lay a claim to the IT, etc. But the revelations of Jon-son-of-Rhaegar will have profound influence in Dany's mind.

Which would also be of a secondary importance to the overall plot. If George goes with it like they did in the show, i.e. that they fall in love before the true parentage is revealed, then it is going to take a long time for Jon Snow and Daenerys to learn the truth about this. This doesn't mean the reader won't get positive confirmation next book but that might just be us piecing together information multiple POVs gather - say, Bran having a vision of Rhaegar and Lyanna in love at Harrenhal or elsewhere and some character with Dayne connections - perhaps even Wylla herself, if she shows up somewhere - letting something slip.