US Politics - All He Wants for Christmas Was His Two Dead Sheep

[Zorral]

Any of us read bedbug's letter to Pelosi?  Text of the 6 pages here:

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/474937-read-trump-letter-to-pelosi-objecting-to-impeachment-process

 

[HexMachina]

4 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Obviously you don’t want to read too much into any single poll, but I saw one on Morning Joe that really put a smile on my face. Every generation except the GI and Silent generations supported each Democratic candidate over Trump. Every day more likely Republican voters die than more likely Democratic voters, and every day more likely Democratic voters become eligible to vote than likely Republican voters.

Given this, since we have a minimum age to vote, shouldn’t we also have a maximum? Why should some old fart have as much say as I about how the world will look like well after they’re dead while I’ll be in the prime of my life? Obviously the question is facetious, but it’s impossible to deny there’s some truth to it.

Never really liked this argument. I get the frustration (nothing will ever be more infuriating than the 70 year old bar lady where i used to work declaring after the Brexit vote “We’ve done it, we’ve taken the country back for our kids and granddkids.” Especially as I know her granddaughter who was, surprise surprise, pro-Remain). But “you might die soon so your vote counts for less is a very bad sentiment. Does that then mean if you have a terminal illness your vote counts for less? Ifnyou have some infectious disease? Family history of heart problems and diabetes? Record of regrettably short life expectancy in your family? A profession that is comsidered particularly dangerous? Not to mention that any of us could get hit by a bus tomorrow, so why should we have been able to influence he next five years?

Again, i know you are being facetious but the idea does not stand up to any kind of testing or probing.

[Ormond]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

And? That doesn’t justify the behavior, and I find it odd that a psychology professor would be okay with reinforcing bad behavior. My last living grandparent votes straight Republican, and him telling me he loves me does not change the fact that he just voted for a ton of climate change deniers, that given power, will actively do damage to me for the remainder of my life and the lives of all his family members.

Oh good grief. Pointing out to you what people believe is not "reinforcing bad behavior." And are you doing anything to try to change your grandfather's behavior? 

[Mexal]

46 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Any of us read bedbug's letter to Pelosi?  Text of the 6 pages here:

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/474937-read-trump-letter-to-pelosi-objecting-to-impeachment-process

 

It's basically Trump's tweets in letter form. Nothing to see here.

[Zorral]

19 minutes ago, Mexal said:

It's basically Trump's tweets in letter form. Nothing to see here.

Other than the media of every kind broadcasting over and over every single one of those tweets, which say he's pure and holy and the Dems are staging a coup and destroying democracy -- but Holy Bedbug will not allow it to happen!

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Again, i know you are being facetious but the idea does not stand up to any kind of testing or probing.

It certainly does not and there'd be no way to implement it. Furthermore I am actually like Maith and I want everyone to vote, but there are times that make you look back and recognize why the Founders didn't want that. 

3 hours ago, Ormond said:

Oh good grief. Pointing out to you what people believe is not "reinforcing bad behavior." And are you doing anything to try to change your grandfather's behavior? 

It can be when they believe something that is fundamentally not true. And my cousins and I try all the time. 

[Guest]

What the fuck is going on with the military?

(WaPo - limited clicks) The XVIII Airborne Corps (includes both 82nd & 101st Airborne divisions and Army 10th Mountain AND the fucking DoD all posted a fawning bio of a fucking Nazi war criminal to their fucking Facebook pages to "celebrate" the 75th anniversary of the beginning of the Battle of the Bulge.

This was part of the XVIII Airborne Corps' rationale:  

Quote

“He had a good first day,” the XVIII Airborne Corps replied. “Not really his fault that the initial push failed in the North and center (as we’ll see tomorrow).”

In a now-deleted tweet, the unit called Peiper a “terrible person” but an “effective combat leader” who “rocketed through the ranks during the war, racking up medals, & promotions.”

This on top of the recent controversy at the Army/Navy game is really getting out of fucking control.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

What the fuck is going on with the military?

Like cadets flashing white supremacy gestures at the Army-Navy game?

Or the fact that Army's team has had a white supremacist slogan on their logo/helmets?

[Zorral]

42 minutes ago, The Great Unwashed said:

What the fuck is going on with the military?

Mumblety-many decades of mandatory 24/7 broadcast of faux noose to them wherever they go: the barracks, transport, mess hall, etc.

Why so many rapes and assaults on military women?  Why so many tortures?  Why so many murders?  Why so much wasted money?

[Kalbear]

Pelosi's response is good

https://twitter.com/goldengateblond/status/1207107460793679872?s=20

[Fragile Bird]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Pelosi's response is good

https://twitter.com/goldengateblond/status/1207107460793679872?s=20

Uh, where’s the beef?

[Squab]

19 minutes ago, Triskele said:

And this happened while Labour almost certainly is the more worker friendly party policy-wise just as the Dems in the US are certainly more worker friendly here.  So maybe cultural stuff is driving it.

Who is more qualified to know which party is the more worker friendly? The workers themselves? No, It'll be someone well educated who has studied the policies and even visited one of these areas once. And because the worker is dumb a low information voter, all we need is the right messaging next time. This same exact smugness was reflected in the recent result in Australia too.

How many results will it take to understand the left now represents population centers where government jobs and services and wages along with over education is high? Rural workers are abandoning the parties that once stood for workers but are now more focused on socialism, environmentalism, identity politics and whatever else is currently popular politically on university campuses. And some hillbilly worker from the country who questions any left wing ideal (immigration, increased taxes, environmental legislation, etc.) is dismissed (racist, capitalist, science denier, bigot). But hey, what would i know, im just a <insert name here>.

[dornishpen]

1 hour ago, Triskele said:

Isn't it remarkable how easily it seems like we could descend into an authoritarian state from which we never return?  

 

A quick thought getting back to the UK vote and to what extent we can glean anything for the US vote.  I was listening to an Economist summary, and they talked about "blue collar defections" being a huge part of of the swing in this UK election.  That to me very much echoes the 2016 US election with the infamous blue wall crumbling and Ohio going twice to Obama and then going to Trump by roughly 10 points.  And this happened while Labour almost certainly is the more worker friendly party policy-wise just as the Dems in the US are certainly more worker friendly here.  So maybe cultural stuff is driving it.

Something that I'm concerned about right now in the US is are we even sure that greater blue collar defections here are not possible?   We've talked (not just here, but certainly in this space) about the need to increase turnout and not focus too much on a certain demographic which makes a certain degree of sense based on the last map, but I feel like that assumption rests partly on the notion that the hemorrhaging has already stopped with that certain demographic.  If that assumption is wrong then holy shit, right?

The white working class might happy to vote Trump and Republicans, but right now clearly the POC working class is not and until they stop promoting racist policies and pandering to racists I can't really imagine that changing much. I wouldn't say we have a forever coalition because that's silly, but I imagine Democrats can count on the support of the vast majority POC working class who vote next year. And the white working class has a lower percentage of the population here than in the U.K.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Squab said:

But hey, what would i know, im just a <insert name here[dumbass?]insert name here>.

 

[mormont]

3 hours ago, Squab said:

Who is more qualified to know which party is the more worker friendly? The workers themselves? No, It'll be someone well educated who has studied the policies and even visited one of these areas once.

Who is more qualified to know if smoking is bad for me? Me, or someone well educated? 

Obviously, the latter. If you're arguing that somehow, all voters are experts in social policy and economics, you're arguing an absurd position. That doesn't mean I don't have the right to choose to smoke or that voters don't have the right to choose policies that are not in their interests. But it is daft to argue that voters always know what policies are best for them. 

3 hours ago, Squab said:

Rural workers are abandoning the parties that once stood for workers but are now more focused on socialism

You understand that standing for workers is the origin and the definition of socialism? This is like complaining that I used to stand for home cooking but now I spend all my time in the kitchen making meals from scratch. It's gibberish, and it can only come from an uncritical acceptance of 'socialism' as a buzzword rather than a word with an actual meaning in the real world. 

[Squab]

47 minutes ago, mormont said:

Who is more qualified to know if smoking is bad for me? Me, or someone well educated? 

Obviously, the latter. If you're arguing that somehow, all voters are experts in social policy and economics, you're arguing an absurd position. That doesn't mean I don't have the right to choose to smoke or that voters don't have the right to choose policies that are not in their interests. But it is daft to argue that voters always know what policies are best for them. 

Totally false. This is the root of authoritarianism. Even the smoking example, i choose what is best for me, not your idea of what you think is best for me. Total upper class snobishness at its apex. And the reason you keep getting surprised by losing.

50 minutes ago, mormont said:

You understand that standing for workers is the origin and the definition of socialism? This is like complaining that I used to stand for home cooking but now I spend all my time in the kitchen making meals from scratch. It's gibberish, and it can only come from an uncritical acceptance of 'socialism' as a buzzword rather than a word with an actual meaning in the real world. 

I understand that is where it began. Today it is more “from those who have to those that need”. In reality it means everything costs more and the company i work for is looking to move elsewhere. But go ahead and tell me more about how i dont actually know whats good for me

[mormont]

7 minutes ago, Squab said:

Totally false. This is the root of authoritarianism.

Blethers. Knowledge is the root of authoritarianism? What rubbish.

7 minutes ago, Squab said:

Even the smoking example, i choose what is best for me, not your idea of what you think is best for me.

Are you suggesting that smoking is good for you if you believe it is? This is the root of absolute nonsense. 

I did explicitly recognise that people are entitled to choose things that they think are best for them, even if they're wrong. The problem here is that you seem to be operating on the assumption that if someone chooses a thing because they believe it is best for them, then as if by magic, it IS best for them! So if I believe the best way for me to drive is with my eyes closed, that's best for me? 

7 minutes ago, Squab said:

Total upper class snobishness at its apex.

I'm very far from upper class and even further from snobbish, as anyone who knows me can attest. This equivalence of expertise with class is a real barrel scraper of an argument. 

7 minutes ago, Squab said:

I understand that is where it began. Today it is more “from those who have to those that need”. In reality it means everything costs more and the company i work for is looking to move elsewhere. But go ahead and tell me more about how i dont actually know whats good for me

You appear to be ignorant of the meaning of words and to reject the idea that knowledge has value. That does, unfortunately, make the case better than I ever could. 

[A True Kaniggit]

26 minutes ago, Squab said:

Totally false. This is the root of authoritarianism. Even the smoking example, i choose what is best for me, not your idea of what you think is best for me. Total upper class snobishness at its apex. And the reason you keep getting surprised by losing.

Dude, ignorance does not help you choose the best course. Maybe @mormont's smoking example was too tame for you.

Let's say, for example, you don't know what the hell electricity is. And for the first time in your life you see an open electrical socket. And for whatever reason, you think it is a good idea to put your dick in said electrical socket. 

Now I'm standing nearby, and with my wisdom tell you, "don't put your dick in there, that is not a good idea"

But in your ignorance you decide to do so anyways.

Now do you think you really chose what was best for you in this scenario?

 

[Squab]

11 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Dude, ignorance does not help you choose the best course. Maybe @mormont's smoking example was too tame for you.

Let's say, for example, you don't know what the hell electricity is. And for the first time in your life you see an open electrical socket. And for whatever reason, you think it is a good idea to put your dick in said electrical socket. 

Now I'm standing nearby, and with my wisdom tell you, "don't put your dick in there, that is not a good idea"

But in your ignorance you decide to do so anyways.

Now do you think you really chose what was best for you in this scenario?

 

Your ignorance and arrogance lies completely in your assumptions of my scenario regardless of your education. If i want to know about sticking dicks in power sockets, be assured i will ask you. My own life, im gunna rely on me.

28 minutes ago, mormont said:

Blethers. Knowledge is the root of authoritarianism? What rubbish.

False. You thinking you know whats better for me than i do is the root of authoritarianism. Our definition of better is undoubtedly different just like our definitions of upper class snobbishness, for me its about thinking you’re better than others, kinda like you do

 

[mormont]

15 minutes ago, Squab said:

Our definition of better is undoubtedly different just like our definitions of upper class snobbishness

Well, if you're going to define words to mean things other than what they mean, we can't communicate. if you think 'upper class snobbishness' is not actually about what class someone is, for example, we literally are not able to discuss things in any way that makes sense. 

ETA - what's weird about all this is that it's essentially a caricature version of postmodernism that someone is taking, or is pretending to take, absolutely seriously. Words mean whatever I want them to mean. Facts are optional. Everything is subjective. It's the sort of thing the right used to mock and now, apparently, embrace.