Table Setting - Jamie's First Dream

[Curled Finger]

Jamie dreams of himself and Brienne wielding swords alight with blue flame.  This likely points to them both wielding the reconfigured parts of Ice.   Or not, just my read on it.  Is that the point of this dream or is the emphasis supposed to be on his meeting with Rhaegar and the Kingsguard?  Does the location of this dream mean anything? 

This dream ultimately leads Jamie to turn back and rescue Brienne.   It is the advent of Jamie shedding his loathsome Kingslayer persona and becoming a true knight.   Yep, Jamie’s becoming a true knight. 

I think there are multiple layers of meaning to Jamie’s dream.   In short order Brienne takes the first and larger part of Ice incarnate in Oathkeeper.  Jamie doesn’t appear to be interested or in proximity to Widow’s Wail, but I’ve got my eye on that eventuality.  Serves to reason since Jamie and Brienne have already encountered Brienne’s nakedness, at least, and they have fought together.   

Jamie has a lot going on when he has this dream.   He’s mutilated and recovering from serious illness.  He’s separated from a friend he’s coming to respect and admire a great deal.   He is rethinking his oaths and beginning to act on them.   Save that maiden who is your brother knight.   

What of the ghosts who convict Jamie?  The Kingsguard and Rhaegar who implore Jamie to consider his actions or inaction with regard to the royal grandchildren, Aegon and Rhaenys?  Are they the only children on the radar at this time?   Jamie surely knows Rhaella is pregnant and could have no way of knowing about Lyanna’s pregnancy.  Jamie isn’t stupid.  Is this dream meeting supposed to point to Jamie’s simple failure or open his eyes to Daenaerys?  Can we realistically take it a step farther to include Jon Snow at some future point?  What do Rhaegar’s changing colors mean? 

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. "I left my wife and children in your hands."  ASOS Jamie VI

Finally there is the strange location of Jamie’s dream, in some watery cavern beneath Casterly Rock. 

The steps ended abruptly on echoing darkness. Jaime had the sense of vast space before him. He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness. A spearpoint jabbed at the small of the back, shoving him into the abyss. He shouted, but the fall was short. He landed on his hands and knees, upon soft sand and shallow water. There were watery caverns deep below Casterly Rock, but this one was strange to him. "What place is this?"  ASOS Jamie VI

Jamie is instructed that this place is “yours” by the voices of all his Lannister ancestors.  Is this another conviction or some intended comfort? 

There is a lot to unpack in both of Jamie’s dreams, but the 1^st is the focus here.   What does this strange dream tell you about where Jamie is going?   

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I don't have anything to say, but welcome back!

[Platypus Rex]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Does the location of this dream mean anything?  

It is the realm of the dead.  So, yeah.  Not looking good for Jaime and Brienne.

[Curled Finger]

@Alexis-something-Rose, that's very kind of you.  Thanks.  Always enjoy your thoughts on things so if you have any related to the topic I'd love to see! 

@Platypus Rex, Realm of the dead, ey? That's an interesting take.  Thanks.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

@Curled Finger, I posted something about the dream in Moments of Foreshadowing thread sometime ago. This is a copy/paste of the post. Some of it touches on your post.

The first thing I thought about during my reread was that the dream takes place below Casterly Rock. Casterly Rock could be a stand-in for hollow hill. 

First thing is this;

"Us? This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness." Her torch was the only light in the cavern. Her torch was the only light in the world. She turned to go.
"Stay with me," Jaime pleaded. "Don't leave me here alone." But they were leaving. "Don't leave me in the dark!" Something terrible lived down here. "Give me a sword, at least."
"I gave you a sword," Lord Tywin said. (Jaime VI, ASoS 44)

This is interesting because earlier in the story we see the gift that Tywin plans on giving Jaime, a Valyrian steel sword. And later, Jaime receives the sword and turns around and gives it to Brienne.

From behind came a great splash. Jaime whirled toward the sound . . . but the faint light revealed only Brienne of Tarth, her hands bound in heavy chains. "I swore to keep you safe," the wench said stubbornly. "I swore an oath." Naked, she raised her hands to Jaime. "Ser. Please. If you would be so good."
The steel links parted like silk. "A sword," Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all. She buckled it around her thick waist. The light was so dim that Jaime could scarcely see her, though they stood a scant few feet apart. In this light she could almost be a beauty, he thought. In this light she could almost be a knight. Brienne's sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more. (Jaime VI, ASoS 44)

Brienne swore an oath to Catelyn to keep Jaime safe and deliver him to King's Landing. We don't know if she was made to swear another to Lady Stoneheart before she rode out to find Jaime (I think there's a good chance she did).

Brienne felt the hemp constricting, digging into her skin, jerking her chin upward. Ser Hyle was cursing them eloquently, but not the boy. Podrick never lifted his eyes, not even when his feet were jerked up off the ground. If this is another dream, it is time for me to awaken. If this is real, it is time for me to die. All she could see was Podrick, the noose around his thin neck, his legs twitching. Her mouth open. Pod was kicking, choking, dying. Brienne sucked the air in desperately, even as the rope was strangling her. Nothing had ever hurt so much.
She screamed a word. (Brienne VIII, AFFC 42)

GRRM told us that the word Brienne screamed was "sword," which is what she is asking of Jaime. Then she goes to find find Jaime and Pennytree.

"Do they keep a bear down here?" Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword in hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash. "A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?"
"Doom." No bear, he knew. No lion. "Only doom." (Jaime VI, ASoS 44, p. 610-1)

Brienne asks Jaime if they keep a bear down where they are. When Jaime rides back to Harrenhal, he finds Brienne fighting a bear. 

And his answer about only doom waiting for them is rather accurate if he is headed to hollow hill.

And there is a confrontation of sorts in Jaime's fever dream, between him and Rhaegar and the deceased Kingsguard.

"I swore an oath to keep him safe," she said to Rhaegar's shade. "I swore a holy oath."
"We all swear oaths," said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.
The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. "He was going to burn the city," Jaime said. "To leave Robert only ashes."
"He was your king," said Darry.
"You swore to keep him safe," said Whent.
"And the children, them as well," said Prince Lewyn.
Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. "I left my wife and children in your hands."
"I never thought he'd hurt them." Jaime's sword was burning less brightly now. "I was with the king . . ."
"Killing the king," said Ser Arthur.
"Cutting his throat," said Prince Lewyn.
"The king you had sworn to die for," said the White Bull. (Jaime VI, ASoS 44)

These are men Jaime has a healthy doze of respect for. So it makes the confrontation interesting.

Rhaegar talks about leaving his wife and children under Jaime's protection. He doesn't even seem to be concerned with the fact that Jaime killed Aerys. Rhaegar reproaches him the deaths of Elia and the children, something for which Jaime feels a lot of guilt.

The Kingsguard, though, because of their oath reproach Jaime the murder of Aerys, all five of them do, and Lewyn Martell brings up the children as well because he was their uncle. 

I think there are elements in the fever dream that foreshadow and might parallel the confrontation between Jaime and LS. But I also think the last part of this is about Jaime's lost honor.

The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne's burned, as the ghosts came rushing in. (Jaime VI, ASoS 44)

Brienne's sword is still burning, but his gutters out after the confrontation with Rhaegar and his Sworn Brothers.

That said, I think Jaime's dream and Brienne's own dream in her final chapter are maybe meant mirror each other. 

[The Map Guy]

The whole dream is about Jaime's destiny.

 

He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness.

Out along this edge, its always where Jaime burns to be.
As he inches further on the edge, the hotter the intensity!

 

"Stay with me," Jaime pleaded. "Don't leave me here alone." But they were leaving. "Don't leave me in the dark!" Something terrible lived down here. "Give me a sword, at least."

You have a sword!!

 

"I gave you a sword," Lord Tywin said.
It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand's breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back.

What does "stopping a hand's breath from the hilt" mean George?? The hilt of a sword doesn't breathe!!
And what is the source of this silvery-blue light? Does it look something like this? (here is another look ... thank God it wasn't an atomic bomb or something. I live here in Queens, NYC. I would of died and never got the chance to write all my theories in 2019!)

 

"Do they keep a bear down here?" Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword to hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash.

Why are you randomly asking about a bear?
 

"A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?"

A Lannister, a Stark and a ...

[Lady Dacey]

I'm very excited to be part of a conversation hosted by you again, my friend! As is always seems to be the case, I'm half asleep right now, so I won't be long. 

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

There is a lot to unpack in both of Jamie’s dreams, but the 1^st is the focus here. 

Noted! But I will mention the 2^nd to start my first draft... Thing is, in his second dream Jaime comes face to face with his mother. 

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Does the location of this dream mean anything?

When first reading the sequence you propose we analyse, completely unspoiled of what was to come, I took the dark watery cave that is "his place" as metaphorical womb. The imagery and themes just screamed "rebirth" at me from the get go. Jaime meeting his mom in the next dream points in that same direction, so when I got to that I felt somewhat validated in my beliefs.

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Jamie is instructed that this place is “yours” by the voices of all his Lannister ancestors.  Is this another conviction or some intended comfort?

I don't take is as either conviction or comfort, more like a challange. Of course Jaime feels very disquieted when he gets such an answer, but at the same time, if this terrible place is his, is doom awaiting within himself? Does that mean it is easier or harder to escape than if it were and external threat?  

Looking at the dream through that perspective, I find it very important the Cersei leaves. Jaime is a twin, and what more, he came into the world holding his big sister's foot, but his rebirth is all to himself. Cersei leaves and he doesn't make to follow at all. Instead he goes the other way, towards doom, facing his shadows. We have recently had a very interesting conversation on a topic by the @three-eyed monkey where we briefly looked into Stannis' shadow with Joungian eyes, which is very fitting here too. Jaime starts to come to terms with his shadows in this dream. Acknowledging is always the first step. I think this is the most important of the many meanings the dream most surely has. 

[Lady Dacey]

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

"Stay with me," Jaime pleaded. "Don't leave me here alone." But they were leaving. "Don't leave me in the dark!" Something terrible lived down here. "Give me a sword, at least."
"I gave you a sword," Lord Tywin said. 

(...)

"A sword," Brienne begged, and there it was, scabbard, belt, and all.

I really like this parallelism, with Brienne reenacting what Jaime just said, because it brings to mind a second parallel that is touched upon in this dream:

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

"I swore an oath to keep him safe," she said to Rhaegar's shade. "I swore a holy oath."
"We all swear oaths," said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.
The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. "He was going to burn the city," Jaime said. "To leave Robert only ashes."
"He was your king," said Darry.
"You swore to keep him safe," said Whent.

I find it telling that Brienne succedes to get the sword she asks for, because of the last word she utters when almost haging in the riverlands, there might be a conection there. She asks for a sword and gets one and fights along Jaime. Am I being to hopeful?

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

"Do they keep a bear down here?" Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword in hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash. "A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?"
"Doom." No bear, he knew. No lion. "Only doom." (Jaime VI, ASoS 44, p. 610-1)

Brienne asks Jaime if they keep a bear down where they are. When Jaime rides back to Harrenhal, he finds Brienne fighting a bear. 

And his answer about only doom waiting for them is rather accurate if he is headed to hollow hill.

The hollow hill is a good connection. Direwolves too, of course. And these are not mutually exclusive by any means. No bears, no lions, but direwolves might be Jaime Lannister's doom. 

So this got me thinking about "doom" and I was searching the books for the word outside of the "doom of Valyria" use, and it's actually scarce. I did find this quote by Stannis:

 "Only Renly could vex me so with a piece of fruit. He brought his doom on himself with his treason, but I did love him, Davos. I know that now. I swear, I will go to my grave thinking of my brother's peach." A Clash of Kings, Davos II

This really stregthens my earlier point about shadows on a psychoanalytical sense. Renly was killed by Stannis' shadow and Staniss refers to this as Renly's doom. In the recent topic "The untold truth of Robert Strong" by the three-eyed monkey I wrote:

 

  On 12/4/2019 at 6:55 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

And of course, we have the whole skin-changing phenomenon, the seven aspects of one god, and a strong theme regarding changed identity, lost identity, transformation, etc. I think the "shadow" ties in to that stuff quite well, in a Jungian way.

I am *mindblown*. I had never thought of that, but it does tie so well. Stannis killing Renly “in a dream”, Renly who is Robert-come-again, Robert who was always the older brother that Stannis resented so very much. The shadow killing Renly is in a way a image of Stannis’s (jungian) shadows, it’s him enacting his repressed desires in his dreams. How did I ever miss that? 

I am tickling to go back to the books looking for shadows all over again with that in mind.

 

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

"Do they keep a bear down here?" Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword in hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash. "A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?"
"Doom." No bear, he knew. No lion. "Only doom." (Jaime VI, ASoS 44, p. 610-1)

Brienne asks Jaime if they keep a bear down where they are. When Jaime rides back to Harrenhal, he finds Brienne fighting a bear. 

 

Hi Lady Alexis, I'm sort of cherry picking this because after I posted I listened to some old Youtube on this topic.   I did not pick it up myself but the youtuber I was listening to (blast me I did not note the name) pointed out that Jamie makes no mention of the direwolves, only the bear and lion.   Interesting...

Having given your post a proper reading and reading again, is it safe that I assume you understand the dream surrounding Brienne to be prophetic--pointing to future adventures with Brienne?  I see where that is likely, still I wanted to explore some of the parts that tend to stump me a bit or maybe just lead me in a different direction.   

The dream sequence involving the confrontation with Rhaegar and the KG is really interesting when I consider that these were knights of legend who simply could not understand Jamie opting to kill the King to save the city.  I am incredulous that none of them understood the impossible decision Jamie, a child really, was left with.  They would have spared the king and allowed him to continue to burn people alive?  Really?  This is where the dream goes off the rails for me.  Of course as soon as they dissipate Brienne joins the fun and perhaps that is the message...she is a true knight of no legend?  Baffled really!  

Thanks for bringing in some deeper quotes to add to the conversation.   As always it's a pleasure to read your thoughts. 

[Curled Finger]

25 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

The whole dream is about Jaime's destiny.

 

He jerked to a halt, teetering on the edge of nothingness.

Out along this edge, its always where Jaime burns to be.
As he inches further on the edge, the hotter the intensity!

 

"Stay with me," Jaime pleaded. "Don't leave me here alone." But they were leaving. "Don't leave me in the dark!" Something terrible lived down here. "Give me a sword, at least."

You have a sword!!

 

"I gave you a sword," Lord Tywin said.
It was at his feet. Jaime groped under the water until his hand closed upon the hilt. Nothing can hurt me so long as I have a sword. As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand's breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back.

What does "stopping a hand's breath from the hilt" mean George?? The hilt of a sword doesn't breathe!! And what is this source of this silvery-blue light? Does it look something like this?

 

"Do they keep a bear down here?" Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword to hand; step, turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash.

Why are you randomly asking about a bear?
 

"A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?"

A Lannister, a Stark and a ...

Thanks Man.   It's funny, I'm a notorious listener though I have read portions and chapters of the books with my eyes.   If I've ever eye balled the passages above I blew of the hands breath to read hands breadth.   Ah the things I learn around here.  

I like that you picked up on the lion, wolf and bear.   I will throw Mormont at you for the obvious bear, but Jamie doesn't reply to the direwolves or wolves at all.   

I expect many folks interpret this dream to be a sort of Jamie's destiny and respect that.   Just trying to dig a little deeper here is all.   

[Curled Finger]

30 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

I'm very excited to be part of a conversation hosted by you again, my friend! As is always seems to be the case, I'm half asleep right now, so I won't be long. 

Noted! But I will mention the 2^nd to start my first draft... Thing is, in his second dream Jaime comes face to face with his mother. 

When first reading the sequence you propose we analyse, completely unspoiled of what was to come, I took the dark watery cave that is "his place" as metaphorical womb. The imagery and themes just screamed "rebirth" at me from the get go. Jaime meeting his mom in the next dream points in that same direction, so when I got to that I felt somewhat validated in my beliefs.

I don't take is as either conviction or comfort, more like a challange. Of course Jaime feels very disquieted when he gets such an answer, but at the same time, if this terrible place is his, is doom awaiting within himself? Does that mean it is easier or harder to escape than if it were and external threat?  

Looking at the dream through that perspective, I find it very important the Cersei leaves. Jaime is a twin, and what more, he came into the world holding his big sister's foot, but his rebirth is all to himself. Cersei leaves and he doesn't make to follow at all. Instead he goes the other way, towards doom, facing his shadows. We have recently had a very interesting conversation on a topic by the @three-eyed monkey where we briefly looked into Stannis' shadow with Joungian eyes, which is very fitting here too. Jaime starts to come to terms with his shadows in this dream. Acknowledging is always the first step. I think this is the most important of the many meanings the dream most surely has. 

It's good to chat with you Lady.   I've missed these conversations.  Believe me my thoughts jump all over the second dream and other dreams as I pull this first dream apart.   I'm hoping to make a series of "table setting" topics for the whole bunch of things I wonder.   We shall see how that works out, right!  Let's get to your thoughts then as I don't know that I've ever seen the watery caves of Casterly Rock symbolize the womb.   Brilliant!  I'm not set any any firm direction on this.  As @Platypus Rex pointed out the scene smacks of underworld on all counts.   That's been explained and I nearly get it.   I'm just not satisfied that's all.  If Jamie's dream is only a map to his destiny with Brienne, great, but I feel like there is a whole lot more than the simple Brienne/true knight connection going on here.  It's scary there.   May I respectfully offer that to your own unique idea of the womb?  I've never considered the womb to be frightening, but this idea makes great sense in conjunction with the 2nd dream.  What is doom anyway?   A curse?   A predestined failure?  Defeat?  Death of the Kinglsayer perhaps leaving the possibility for the birth of Ser Jamie?  (I'm just paraphrasing you, Dear.)  Of course I'm taking it literally thinking Casterly Rock should be Jamie's and his ancestors are screaming for him to wake the hell up and get busy running the place.   More guilt perhaps?  

So yes, I see where you are going and how you are getting there with the 2nd dream.   Considering both it is a nice tie in and completely plausible.  Both dreams have chaotic quality to them.  This bit about the watery caves being Jamie's place can be interpreted 3 ways I can define without any real conviction in any direction.  Still I doubt that any of the possible meanings I imagine are even close.  This is such an odd passage with so many symbols and messages my brain melts as I study.  I am inclined to believe this dream taken in parts points to different possibilities for Jamie.  

Thanks a lot for joining in.   Get some rest and check back in.  

[The Map Guy]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

[...] I blew of the hands breath to read hands breadth

HA! Buns not intended!

[Mithras]

Jaime's weirwood stump dream basically layouts the crux of Jaime’s (and Brienne’s) story in the rest of the saga. Jaime came from this:

Quote

“So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or the other.”

to this:

Quote

“Both of us swore oaths concerning Sansa Stark… I want you to find Sansa first, and get her somewhere safe. How else are the two of us going to make good our stupid vows to your precious dead Lady Catelyn? … Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor.”

This last paragraph is crucial in predicting the future of the related characters.

Excerpts from the dream sequence

Quote

Below the earth his doom awaited, he knew with the certainty of dream; something dark and terrible lurked there, something that wanted him.

…

Something terrible lived down here.

…

“What place is this?”

…

“This is your place, Brother. This is your darkness.”

…

“I gave you a sword [Oathkeeper],” Lord Tywin said.

…

As he raised the sword a finger of pale flame flickered at the point and crept up along the edge, stopping a hand’s breath from the hilt. The fire took on the color of the steel itself so it burned with a silvery-blue light, and the gloom pulled back.

…

Brienne’s sword took flame as well, burning silvery blue. The darkness retreated a little more. “The flames will burn so long as you live,” he heard Cersei call. “When they die, so must you.”

…

“Tell me, Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?”

“Doom.”

…

He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them.

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

…

“I swore to keep you safe,” the wench said stubbornly. “I swore an oath.”

…

“I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.”

“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.

…

“He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.”

“He was your king,” said Darry.

“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.

“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king . . .”

“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.

“Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn.

“The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.

The fires that ran along the blade were guttering out, and Jaime remembered what Cersei had said. No. Terror closed a hand about his throat. Then his sword went dark, and only Brienne’s burned, as the ghosts came rushing in.

This dark space is Jaime's subconscious where he buries his problems about breaking his oaths (which includes killing Aerys, not saving Rhaegar's children etc.) Even his affair with Cersei is alluded to here by Jaime having an erection when he thinks about Cersei during the dream. These are all long standing issues that Jaime did not deal with by some sort of core self-evaluation. He shits on Ned for judging him with his cold eyes but in fact, Jaime should judge his actions all by himself. Not doing this self-judgment is a character flaw of Jaime. He decided to keep some of his vows and break the others but was his judgment right? Jaime did not answer that question yet.

Jaime’s and Brienne’s story is about walking on a thin sheet of ice and juggling their way through the conflicting and challenging oaths they swore. As long as they can find a way to not break any of their oaths, they will survive. If they break their oaths, they will die.

The light in their swords is an indicator of how well they keep their oaths. If it goes out, that means their oaths are broken and they must die. Do you now see why Jaime decided to return to Harrenhal and save Brienne from the pit right after having this dream? Do you now see why Jaime named the sword as Oathkeeper? Do you now see his subconscious motive in denying Tywin’s offer to leave the Kingsguard (hence break his oaths)?

GRRM’s way of challenging Jaime is to load him with conflicting oaths again and put him in a difficult position to see how he will act this time. The dream is about the future of Jaime and how he will act when he is given a choice to select the vows he will keep and the ones he will break. He will not survive from this as the dream suggests but making the right call will give him the internal peace he is seeking.

Since Jaime’s sword went dark before Brienne’s, I think he will predecease her and this should happen when he breaks his oaths again. I think the most reasonable scenario when Jaime breaks his oaths again is his second KingQueenslayer moment to Cersei’s Mad Queen. That will be one of the major climaxes of the saga as it will be concluding lots of characters and subplots.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Having given your post a proper reading and reading again, is it safe that I assume you understand the dream surrounding Brienne to be prophetic--pointing to future adventures with Brienne?  I see where that is likely, still I wanted to explore some of the parts that tend to stump me a bit or maybe just lead me in a different direction.   

I think there is a prophetic element to that. I think there is also a lot of Jaime's subconscious at work as well in the dream. Like when he gets hard because of Cersei and has to turn away from Brienne out of shame, presumably. Jaime refuses Cersei's advances before Tyrion tells him about Lancel and Kettleblack.

Killing the king, banging his sister are big no-nos, but he's done both. There's a lot of bravado on Jaime's part, he laughs at these things when the truth is other.

10 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The dream sequence involving the confrontation with Rhaegar and the KG is really interesting when I consider that these were knights of legend who simply could not understand Jamie opting to kill the King to save the city.  I am incredulous that none of them understood the impossible decision Jamie, a child really, was left with.  They would have spared the king and allowed him to continue to burn people alive?  Really?  This is where the dream goes off the rails for me.  Of course as soon as they dissipate Brienne joins the fun and perhaps that is the message...she is a true knight of no legend?  Baffled really!  

I think the really important thing about the dream is that it's a turning point in Jaime's arc. And the way he thinks of these people after his dream is also important.

I don't think it's about the knights not understanding why Jaime killed the king. I think it's about Jaime believing that they would not have understood why he did it. Jaime brings up Ned's judgement of him. Before Rhaegar and the others show up in his dream, he thinks it's Ned. I think we have to look at the passage as a whole

"Listen." She put a hand on his shoulder, and he trembled at the sudden touch. She's warm. "Something comes." Brienne lifted her sword to point off to his left. "There."
He peered into the gloom until he saw it too. Something was moving through the darkness, he could not quite make it out . . .
"A man on a horse. No, two. Two riders, side by side."
"Down here, beneath the Rock?" It made no sense. Yet there came two riders on pale horses, men and mounts both armored. The destriers emerged from the blackness at a slow walk. They make no sound, Jaime realized. No splashing, no clink of mail nor clop of hoof. He remembered Eddard Stark, riding the length of Aerys's throne room wrapped in silence. Only his eyes had spoken; a lord's eyes, cold and grey and full of judgement.
"It is you, Stark?" Jaime called. "Come ahead. I never feared you living, I do not fear you dead." (Jaime VI, ASoS 44)

He thinks it's Ned and . So he is already being defensive and seems to be projecting those feelings onto Arthur and the other Kingsguard.

"If this is true, how is it no one knows?"
"The knights of the Kingsguard are sworn to keep the king's secrets. Would you have me break my oath?" Jaime laughed. "Do you think the noble Lord of Winterfell wanted to hear my feeble explanations? Such an honorable man. He only had to look at me to judge me guilty." Jaime lurched to his feet, the water running cold down his chest. "By what right does the wolf judge the lion? By what right?" A violent shiver took him, and he smashed his stump against the rim of the tub as he tried to climb out. (Jaime V, ASoS 37)

Ned's tower of joy fever dream;

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."
"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells." (Eddard X, AGoT 39)

These Kingsguard are men that Jaime holds in high regard;

Jaime had served with Meryn Trant and Boros Blount for years; adequate fighters, but Trant was sly and cruel, and Blount of bag of growly air. Ser Balon Swann was better suited to the cloak, and of course the Knight of Flowers was supposedly all a knight should be. The fifth man was a stranger to him, this Osmund Kettleblack.
He wondered what Ser Arthur Dayne would have to say of this lot. "How is it that the Kingsguard has fallen so low," most like. "It was my doing," I would have to answer. "I opened the door, and did nothing when the vermin began to crawl inside." (Jaime VIII, ASoS 67)

And this;

That arrow hit too close to the mark. "I learned from the White Bull and Barristan the Bold," Jaime snapped. "I learned from Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, who could have slain all five of you with his left hand while he was taking a piss with the right. I learned from Prince Lewyn of Dorne and Ser Oswell Whent and Ser Jonothor Darry, good men every one." (Jaime VIII, ASoS 67)

Men he admires and respects holding him accountable for his failing. And it seems like it's something that he took to heart. 

The part of the dream when Jaime is confronted by Rhaegar and the Kingsguard is about Jaime's shame. The children died on his watch;

"Not if you kill the sons as well. Ask the Casterlys about that if you doubt me. Ask Lord and Lady Tarbeck, or the Reynes of Castamere. Ask the Prince of Dragonstone." For an instant, the deep red clouds that crowned the western hills reminded him of Rhaegar's children, all wrapped up in crimson cloaks. (87-Jaime I, ADwD 48)

And he killed the king which no one will let him forget;

I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. And it seemed to Jaime that he knew that voice, the iron tones that had once belonged to Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone. (16-Jaime I, AFfC 8)

And years after Rhaegar's death, he still thinks of him as the rightful heir to the Iron Throne;

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne. (Jaime VI, ASoS 44)

The smell reminded Jaime Lannister of the pass below the Golden Tooth where he had won a glorious victory in the first days of the war. On the morning after the battle, the crows had feasted on victors and vanquished alike, as once they had feasted on Rhaegar Targaryen after the Trident. How much can a crown be worth, when a crow can dine upon a king? (16-Jaime I, AFfC 8)

I think the dream is shaping Jaime's arc. A lot of his thoughts seem to trace back to it some way or another.

In the dream he has about his mother, after he asks her who she is, she replies;

"The question is, who are you?" (Jaime VII, AFfC 44)

I think we're about to find out exactly that. Things are really on a collision course for Jaime.

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, Mithras said:

Jaime's weirwood stump dream basically layouts the crux of Jaime’s (and Brienne’s) story in the rest of the saga. Jaime came from this:

to this:

This last paragraph is crucial in predicting the future of the related characters.

Excerpts from the dream sequence

This dark space is Jaime's subconscious where he buries his problems about breaking his oaths (which includes killing Aerys, not saving Rhaegar's children etc.) Even his affair with Cersei is alluded to here by Jaime having an erection when he thinks about Cersei during the dream. These are all long standing issues that Jaime did not deal with by some sort of core self-evaluation. He shits on Ned for judging him with his cold eyes but in fact, Jaime should judge his actions all by himself. Not doing this self-judgment is a character flaw of Jaime. He decided to keep some of his vows and break the others but was his judgment right? Jaime did not answer that question yet.

Jaime’s and Brienne’s story is about walking on a thin sheet of ice and juggling their way through the conflicting and challenging oaths they swore. As long as they can find a way to not break any of their oaths, they will survive. If they break their oaths, they will die.

The light in their swords is an indicator of how well they keep their oaths. If it goes out, that means their oaths are broken and they must die. Do you now see why Jaime decided to return to Harrenhal and save Brienne from the pit right after having this dream? Do you now see why Jaime named the sword as Oathkeeper? Do you now see his subconscious motive in denying Tywin’s offer to leave the Kingsguard (hence break his oaths)?

GRRM’s way of challenging Jaime is to load him with conflicting oaths again and put him in a difficult position to see how he will act this time. The dream is about the future of Jaime and how he will act when he is given a choice to select the vows he will keep and the ones he will break. He will not survive from this as the dream suggests but making the right call will give him the internal peace he is seeking.

Since Jaime’s sword went dark before Brienne’s, I think he will predecease her and this should happen when he breaks his oaths again. I think the most reasonable scenario when Jaime breaks his oaths again is his second KingQueenslayer moment to Cersei’s Mad Queen. That will be one of the major climaxes of the saga as it will be concluding lots of characters and subplots.

Ah Mithras, what a pleasure to have you here.   I was reading your posts even when I went dark--always interesting.   You've been around long enough for me to lay it out in my stumbling way without you thinking I'm bashing your ideas.   I'm not.   Just trying to get down to the whole thing.  I think WE are missing something and know I am missing something.  Now then, upfront, I've always thought this was just a really sick and traumatized Jamie on the precipice of change dreaming those weird dreams that happen when life gets to this point.   Not like we haven't all had 1 or 2.   Jamie is the oddball Lannister inasmuch as he can be permitted.  He doesn't want to be the lord or king or anything but a knight.  His greatest until recently untold act of chivalry is also his greatest shame and he's lived a long time with that misunderstanding.  As you say, the dark space is his subconscious.  It's not like he actually needs people or ghosts to convict him of anything.  For the most part I agree with your initial statements the only argument I even see is that of your assessment of Jamie's assessment of Ned.   If I was Jamie I would think Ned was a punk, too, by the simple fact that Ned got a great deal of glory in the Rebellion without being a knight.   In Jamie's world I don't think he cares much about anyone who isn't a knight.  The Great Ned Stark could have asked what was going on instead of making an instant accusation against Jamie.    

At this point Jamie has bonded with and left Brienne to her fate.   I think he misses her company.   He likes who he is with her and digs her world view.  So yah, I see where the oaths they've both sworn bear heavily in this dream.  I admit I did not see how the sword lights going out connected to Jamie returning to Harrenhal, but damn I do now.   Nice.   Thanks for that.  

The end is open to interpretation and I haven't got one to offer, but I sure appreciate your take on this.   I'm not sure this is all guilt or prophecy or what.   I'm wondering why Jamie would even be given a weirwood dream, if it is prophetic, and who would send a message to him and why.  That I do have some ideas about, but nothing I'm willing to stand on.  Rhaegar's changing colors haven't been addressed yet.  Do you think it means anything at all? 

[Curled Finger]

@Alexis-something-Rose, I dig it when you dig a conversation.   I've given some thought to your Hollow Hill idea and have worked out how this could play out, so thanks for that.  I've been out of this so long it's really nice to be back to hiding from life in this crazy wonderful story.  I cannot add more to nor argue with your well assembled and presented response piece above.  I would like to throw a few things out as neither argument nor response, but maybe just a little further conversation.   You have a good handle on Jamie's head state.  He's complicated and got a lot a lot going on.  Jamie has never been a real whiner.   He's made his choices and regrouped after each accordingly for his station.  I think Brienne unlocks some better ideal of Jamie that he thought dead or nonexistent.  On the psych level I can appreciate that she stands beside him and he judges her equal if different in his dream.  If this is prophecy and even I found a little in the color of the swords, right or wrong, there is a reason Jamie is given this prophecy.  Just as there is a reason he is given Brienne and possibly vice versa.   Beyond all Jamie's self abashing guilt and arrogance he knows he did the right thing in killing Areys and in being pissed off at Ned.  I wonder if Brienne's presence beside him is the biggest message to him from wherever this clue originated.  Rhaegar changes colors.  Why of all the people represented in this likely prophetic dream does only Rhaegar change colors?  You cited where Jamie believes Rhaegar is the rightful heir to the throne and it's a damned good quote.  I asked in the OP if Jamie should have somehow been alerted to Dany's existence, which he is surely aware of by now.  I'm stuck on the terminology here...rightful heir to the throne.   Or does this on some level Jamie can't possibly know, point to Jon?  

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. 

[kissdbyfire]

@Curled Finger, how wonderful to have you back! You were missed.

I am bone tired and half asleep, so I’ll confess to not having read the thread but for the OP. 

I’ll leave a few half-arsed thoughts here now, and will come back and do my homework at some point soon.

I think Jaime’s dream is not so much about anyone but himself. Or to put it more coherently (hopefully), I don’t think the ghosts of the past have much to do w/ any of it, but rather it’s Jaime’s own conscience that conjures up the accusations. Jaime does own up to his many fuck ups, but up until this point, he does it cynically. Actually, cynicism is his go-to attitude/response to pretty much everything. But he wasn’t always like this. I know there’s always talk of Jaime being on the path of redemption, but I don’t really see it that way. He is the same he’s always been... As a boy he had dreams of great chivalrous deeds, but we know how that went. And at some point he became a disenchanted cynic. And more recently he starts questioning himself a lot, and examining his actions, and yes, reflecting and pondering his mistakes. And that’s when we started to get his PoV, hence the “redemption arc”. I like the bit below; it comes after the dream. 

ASoS, Jaime VIII

“And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys’s throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.”

So, I think the dream is, in great part, Jaime really facing the guilt he feels. I also find it interesting that he wanted to be like the greatest knight ever, Arthur Dayne, and ended up like the leader of a band of outlaws. And now he is going to be brought to a band of outlaws... and maybe this is when he becomes the great knight he wanted to become as a boy. And by “becoming a great knight” I mean more becoming someone who does the right thing, fights the good fight, not necessarily knightly deeds per se. 

 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Why of all the people represented in this likely prophetic dream does only Rhaegar change colors?  You cited where Jamie believes Rhaegar is the rightful heir to the throne and it's a damned good quote.  I asked in the OP if Jamie should have somehow been alerted to Dany's existence, which he is surely aware of by now.  I'm stuck on the terminology here...rightful heir to the throne.   Or does this on some level Jamie can't possibly know, point to Jon?  

Jaime would know of Dany. But like most people in Westeros, he is ignorant of what's going on with her in Essos. The news of Dany starts reaching Westeros early enough ASoS;

The eunuch drew a parchment from his sleeve. "A kraken has been seen off the Fingers." He giggled. "Not a Greyjoy, mind you, a true kraken. It attacked an Ibbenese whaler and pulled it under. There is fighting on the Stepstones, and a new war between Tyrosh and Lys seems likely. Both hope to win Myr as ally. Sailors back from the Jade Sea report a three-headed dragon has hatched in Qarth, and is the wonder of that city --" (Tyrion III, ASoS 19)

But Varys is sly, he does his job of informing the small council about the dragons, but buries the information behind his kraken news and the other news that Tywin doesn't give a rat's ass about;

"Dragons and krakens do not interest me, regardless of the number of their heads," said Lord Tywin. (Tyrion III, ASoS 19)

And Jaime for most of ASoS is trying to reach King's Landing. The second news of the dragons comes from Aurane Waters during a small council meeting, but Jaime doesn't sit in on the meetings and Cersei dismisses it (she does so twice in fact).

As far as Jon is concerned, I don't know if the dream points to him. There is a mention of "snow," the shades are armored in snow, included Rhaegar, it seems, if I'm understanding the passage correctly. 

This is the full quote;

Brienne touched his arm. "There are more."
He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them.
Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne. (Jaime VI, ASoS 44)

The Kingsguard being armored in snow would make sense. White is their color. But Rhaegar armored in snow would be an interesting reversal seeing as he is usually identified by his black armor with the three-headed dragon wrought in rubies. That was the armor he wore at Harrenhal, the armor is was wearing when he left King's Landing for the last time, and the armor he died in. So armored in snow is completely different from what we know of him (again, if I understood the passage correctly).

I guess we could contrast that with Jon Snow's dream in ADwD;

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. (Jon XII, ADWD 58)

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. 

I'd pay money to know what this means, because it's a head-scratcher, but I don't know that everything is supposed to have meaning. That said the cold light reminded me of something else earlier. 

Stannis's Lightbringer. It emits a light without heat because it's not the real thing. Maybe it's the same thing with Rhaegar. He's part of a dream, making him not real. 

Maybe the cold light is his anger at Jaime for not fulfilling his promise to keep Elia and the children safe. The only emotion that's mentioned in this part of the dream is Arthur's sadness, which was the second time this was mentioned for him in the text.

So in a nutshell, I haven't got a clue 

[Lady Dacey]

22 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 I'm hoping to make a series of "table setting" topics for the whole bunch of things I wonder. 

Let's!

22 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I don't know that I've ever seen the watery caves of Casterly Rock symbolize the womb.   Brilliant! 

You are too kind. Thanks!

22 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I feel like there is a whole lot more than the simple Brienne/true knight connection going on here.

me too

22 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 I've never considered the womb to be frightening, but this idea makes great sense in conjunction with the 2nd dream.  What is doom anyway?   A curse?   A predestined failure?  Defeat?  Death of the Kinglsayer perhaps leaving the possibility for the birth of Ser Jamie?  (I'm just paraphrasing you, Dear.)

I'm not sure at all. But let's try and see where we get. The womb is not frightening per se, it is supposed to be safe and cushioned and dark and watery. As the time passes and the fetus grows so does the discomfort. The utherus can't be home forever, and everyone from Freud to Michel Odent agree that being born must be a traumatic experience for the newborn. To be separated, cut off. To be welcomed in the outside world. It is scary, but it is the only way forward. I don't think a baby is comfortable at all during the very last weeks of pregnancy (the mother certainly isn't). The womb becomes too small, too tight. It is not the place the baby wants to be in, but it doesn't know what else there is once it's not inside anymore. Penty scary, if you ask me. You know, labour actually kickstarts with chemicals the fetus produces in his lungs when it fully matures. It's not the mom-vessel that decides the time has come to push the baby out, it's the fetus itself that becomes ready to leave the womb and initiates cascade of recations that culminate in birth (long, painful hours/days later). Even though it has no way of knowing what awaits outside, the baby is the one to actively leave. Doom is outside. Doom is us, our imperfect, complex, failing world (it's 2019 and Bolsonaro rules my country while Trump rules yours, I think we are far worse off than when we first met, my friend, sadly, but I keep fighting back). Doom for Jaime is direwolves, hungry for revenge (but I hope he can escape those). Doom is, in a way, the nihilistic take on the future. Jaime is in inhabiting his own subcountious in this dream, he is facing his shadows, and he is abandoning the approach he'd so far taken to life - the pragmatic, maybe even nihilistic one, where he pretented, to himself too, not to care about his faults of character - it's most obviously his encounter with Brienne that ticks the change within. 

oh, and nothing is predestined. Ever. I think. 

22 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Both dreams have chaotic quality to them. 

Isn't GRRM, like, the best? I've never come across such well depicted dreams in literature before. He portrays the feeling of dreaming splendidly.

22 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Of course I'm taking it literally thinking Casterly Rock should be Jamie's and his ancestors are screaming for him to wake the hell up and get busy running the place.

What, really? I swear to you I had never taken it like that and now I just feel stupid for missing the obvious. Because Jaime states he did not recognize the place, I took it to mean it wasn't Casterly Rock. But I see I'm probably wrong in that assumption, actually, because things are more than one thing at once.

 

Any way, so gald you're here, so glad to be here! 

[Lady Dacey]

26 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think Jaime’s dream is not so much about anyone but himself.

YES

27 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And at some point he became a disenchanted cynic.

we are on the same page (as usual?) 

28 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And more recently he starts questioning himself a lot, and examining his actions, and yes, reflecting and pondering his mistakes.

oh, maturity! But also being (forcibly) away from his sister lover for a while and all that. I think it is very significant that Jaime never so much as attempts to follow Tywin and Cersei when they leave him behind.  

29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I also find it interesting that he wanted to be like the greatest knight ever, Arthur Dayne, and ended up like the leader of a band of outlaws. And now he is going to be brought to a band of outlaws... and maybe this is when he becomes the great knight he wanted to become as a boy.

ironic, isn't it? George RR Martin sure loves his inversions, so much so they almost become a trope within the work itself - characters are constantly not achieving what they first stated they meant to achieve, and then getting what they wanted backwards.