Table Setting - Jamie's First Dream

[Lady Dacey]

31 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'd pay money to know what this means, because it's a head-scratcher, but I don't know that everything is supposed to have meaning. That said the cold light reminded me of something else earlier. 

Stannis's Lightbringer. It emits a light without heat because it's not the real thing. Maybe it's the same thing with Rhaegar. He's part of a dream, making him not real. 

I like it!!!

[kissdbyfire]

30 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

ironic, isn't it? George RR Martin sure loves his inversions, so much so they almost become a trope within the work itself - characters are constantly not achieving what they first stated they meant to achieve, and then getting what they wanted backwards. 

Indeed. Jaime’s greatest and most important and righteous achievements, his “becoming Arthur Dayne”, if you will, will happen when he becomes the leader of an outlaw band for real.

[Curled Finger]

58 minutes ago, Lady Dacey said:

I'm not sure at all. But let's try and see where we get. The womb is not frightening per se, it is supposed to be safe and cushioned and dark and watery. As the time passes and the fetus grows so does the discomfort. The utherus can't be home forever, and everyone from Freud to Michel Odent agree that being born must be a traumatic experience for the newborn. To be separated, cut off. To be welcomed in the outside world. It is scary, but it is the only way forward. I don't think a baby is comfortable at all during the very last weeks of pregnancy (the mother certainly isn't). The womb becomes too small, too tight. It is not the place the baby wants to be in, but it doesn't know what else there is once it's not inside anymore. Penty scary, if you ask me. You know, labour actually kickstarts with chemicals the fetus produces in his lungs when it fully matures. It's not the mom-vessel that decides the time has come to push the baby out, it's the fetus itself that becomes ready to leave the womb and initiates cascade of recations that culminate in birth (long, painful hours/days later). Event hough it has no way of knowing what awaits outside, the baby is the one to actively leave. Doom is outside. Doom is us, our imperfect, complex, failing world (it's 2019 and Bolsonaro rules my country while Trump rules yours, I think we are far worse off than when we first met, my friend, sadly, but I keep fighting back). Doom for Jaime is direwolves, hungry for revenge (but I hope he can escape those). Doom is, in a way, the nihilistic take on the future. Jaime is in inhabiting his own subcountious in this dream, he is facing his shadows, and he is abandoning the approach he'd so far taken to life - the pragmatic, maybe even nihilistic one, where he pretented, to himself too, not to care about his faults of character - it's most obviously his encounter with Brienne that ticks the change within.      Gads I am so glad I never have to do that again.   Yikes!  

oh, and nothing is predestined. Ever. I think.   I am too small to understand GRRM much less GOD!  

Isn't GRRM, like, the best? I've never come across such well depicted dreams in literature before. He portrays the feeling of dreaming splendidly.

I thought I would kill my preoccupation with different series.   I read maybe 5 or 6 series and nothing comes close (Tho Memory Sorrow and Thorn was an awfully good read) to this be in dreams or character or plot or ingenius foreshadowing I will never get.  The man is a marvel!

What, really? I swear to you I had never taken it like that and now I just feel stupid for missing the obvious. Because Jaime states he did not recognize the place, I took it to mean it wasn't Casterly Rock. But I see I'm probably wrong in that assumption, actually, because things are more than one thing at once.  Easy now, this tomb speaks different things to each of us.  I've got multiple excellent explanations to my query and they keep coming.   Isn't that the beauty of the ASOIAF experience?  

Any way, so gald you're here, so glad to be here!    I forgot how much fun it can be.  Thank you for being such a large part of it, Lady!

 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

@Curled Finger, how wonderful to have you back! You were missed.

I am bone tired and half asleep, so I’ll confess to not having read the thread but for the OP. 

I’ll leave a few half-arsed thoughts here now, and will come back and do my homework at some point soon.

I think Jaime’s dream is not so much about anyone but himself. Or to put it more coherently (hopefully), I don’t think the ghosts of the past have much to do w/ any of it, but rather it’s Jaime’s own conscience that conjures up the accusations. Jaime does own up to his many fuck ups, but up until this point, he does it cynically. Actually, cynicism is his go-to attitude/response to pretty much everything. But he wasn’t always like this. I know there’s always talk of Jaime being on the path of redemption, but I don’t really see it that way. He is the same he’s always been... As a boy he had dreams of great chivalrous deeds, but we know how that went. And at some point he became a disenchanted cynic. And more recently he starts questioning himself a lot, and examining his actions, and yes, reflecting and pondering his mistakes. And that’s when we started to get his PoV, hence the “redemption arc”. I like the bit below; it comes after the dream. 

ASoS, Jaime VIII

“And me, that boy I was . . . when did he die, I wonder? When I donned the white cloak? When I opened Aerys’s throat? That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.”

So, I think the dream is, in great part, Jaime really facing the guilt he feels. I also find it interesting that he wanted to be like the greatest knight ever, Arthur Dayne, and ended up like the leader of a band of outlaws. And now he is going to be brought to a band of outlaws... and maybe this is when he becomes the great knight he wanted to become as a boy. And by “becoming a great knight” I mean more becoming someone who does the right thing, fights the good fight, not necessarily knightly deeds per se. 

 

 

It's really good to chat with you after so long...I've been keeping an eye on you though.   You never disappoint.  See now, you bring an entirely other consideration to the topic as I'm going through this particular setting wondering if it ties into prophecy and why and how and if there is any connection to Cersei and/or Tyrion's dreams.   You know me, always with some crazy angle.  You thoughts are what I've mostly thought from the beginning, long before I could see any potential prophecy.   Then again, I thought Jamie was eat up with the dumbass for a very long time.  I get completely what you're saying and it makes absolute technical sense.  But I read a lot and had to realize this is a dream had in both Ned's state of illness and The Ghost of High Heart's proximity to weirwoods.   Now that I've paid attention to stupid Rhaegar changing colors in this dream the natural destination for my thoughts is could a glass candle be involved here?   What's really going on?   Why would Jamie be given any prophecy?  Because you know me well you have no doubt figured out that I believe Jamie will be among my legendary heroes at end game and will wield one of those magical swords.   It's the only reason I can come up with for Jamie to have any sort of magical communication because, as you lay out nicely, this dream was a turning point in the novels and Jamie's arc.  I agree and need more!  

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Jaime would know of Dany. But like most people in Westeros, he is ignorant of what's going on with her in Essos. The news of Dany starts reaching Westeros early enough ASoS;

And Jaime for most of ASoS is trying to reach King's Landing. The second news of the dragons comes from Aurane Waters during a small council meeting, but Jaime doesn't sit in on the meetings and Cersei dismisses it (she does so twice in fact).

As far as Jon is concerned, I don't know if the dream points to him. There is a mention of "snow," the shades are armored in snow, included Rhaegar, it seems, if I'm understanding the passage correctly. 

This is the full quote;

Brienne touched his arm. "There are more."
He saw them too. They were armored all in snow, it seemed to him, and ribbons of mist swirled back from their shoulders. The visors of their helms were closed, but Jaime Lannister did not need to look upon their faces to know them.
Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne. (Jaime VI, ASoS 44)

The Kingsguard being armored in snow would make sense. White is their color. But Rhaegar armored in snow would be an interesting reversal seeing as he is usually identified by his black armor with the three-headed dragon wrought in rubies. That was the armor he wore at Harrenhal, the armor is was wearing when he left King's Landing for the last time, and the armor he died in. So armored in snow is completely different from what we know of him (again, if I understood the passage correctly).

I guess we could contrast that with Jon Snow's dream in ADwD;

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. (Jon XII, ADWD 58)

I'd pay money to know what this means, because it's a head-scratcher, but I don't know that everything is supposed to have meaning. That said the cold light reminded me of something else earlier. 

Stannis's Lightbringer. It emits a light without heat because it's not the real thing. Maybe it's the same thing with Rhaegar. He's part of a dream, making him not real. 

Maybe the cold light is his anger at Jaime for not fulfilling his promise to keep Elia and the children safe. The only emotion that's mentioned in this part of the dream is Arthur's sadness, which was the second time this was mentioned for him in the text.

So in a nutshell, I haven't got a clue 

Ah you are on fire.   Lightbringer is an excellent jump in this.   Nonetheless it's all got to tie in together, doesn't it?  Love to hear it if you can expand on the Lightbringer idea.   I'm harping on Dany and Jon because many folks I've read in previous threads believe parts of the dream point to Jamie defending Jon, which is fine, but completely ignores the Targ Jamie actually could have some knowledge of.  I'm not getting a pulse on this one and it's bugging me.  What's jumping out at me now that I get to read your snippet of dream is how can I be sure these Kingsguard as as Jamie believes?   Their faces are hidden and the scene is very heavy with Jamie's guilt.  Oh man Lady, I knew this would be fun but I had no idea how many twists and turns it could take.    

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Indeed. Jaime’s greatest and most important and righteous achievements, his “becoming Arthur Dayne”, if you will, will happen when he becomes the leader of an outlaw band for real.

I brought that up just today in a conversation.  It's encouraging to see your well read self chiming in on that possibility.   

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

Jaime is the sun, Brienne is the moon, they are both under the shadow of a gigantic stone lion--this is a metaphor for the Long Night, they are being eclipsed by the Lion of Night.  In that darkness the Others come, the ghostly white knights.

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Jaime is the sun, Brienne is the moon, they are both under the shadow of a gigantic stone lion--this is a metaphor for the Long Night, they are being eclipsed by the Lion of Night.  In that darkness the Others come, the ghostly white knights.

I've wondered if the KG are not some sort of stand in for the Others if there is prophecy in this dream.  That's an interesting take, how did you get to Jamie and Brienne being the sun and moon? 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah you are on fire.   Lightbringer is an excellent jump in this.   Nonetheless it's all got to tie in together, doesn't it?  Love to hear it if you can expand on the Lightbringer idea.   I'm harping on Dany and Jon because many folks I've read in previous threads believe parts of the dream point to Jamie defending Jon, which is fine, but completely ignores the Targ Jamie actually could have some knowledge of.  I'm not getting a pulse on this one and it's bugging me.  What's jumping out at me now that I get to read your snippet of dream is how can I be sure these Kingsguard as as Jamie believes?   Their faces are hidden and the scene is very heavy with Jamie's guilt.  Oh man Lady, I knew this would be fun but I had no idea how many twists and turns it could take.    

I have no doubt that Jaime's arc will eventually collide with Jon's and Dany's. 

But the Targaryens were done in the story. Jon is still an unknown quantity. As far as the characters are concerned, he is the bastard son of Eddard Stark and is bound to the Wall. And Jaime knows that. But Dany is half a world away and there are no news of her, she is not mentioned by name again after AGoT until the prologue, AFfC. 

That being said, Jaime's guilt doesn't lie with Dany or Viserys. And it will not lie with Jon. Jaime was supposed to protect Aegon and Rhaenys. They were killed under his watch. And he thinks of them before he vanished in the riverlands with Brienne.

"My father has a saying too. Never wounds a foe when you can kill him. Dead men don't claim vengeance."
"Their sons do," said Hoster, apologetically.
"Not if you kill the sons as well. Ask the Casterlys about that if you doubt me. Ask Lord and Lady Tarbeck, or the Reynes of Castamere. Ask the Prince of Dragonstone." For an instant, the deep red clouds that crowned the western hills reminded him of Rhaegar's children, all wrapped up in crimson cloaks. (87-Jaime I, ADwD 48)

It so happens that one of those children that Jaime is thinking of, and claims to be Aegon Targaryen, the son of Rhaegar and Elia, has landed in Westeros. And that news coupled with the news of the fall of Storm's End to him and Jon Connington will reach Jaime and the BwB much quicker.

(It's funny, though, isn't it, how there are these characters trying to restore the Targaryens and the Starks around the same time)

[Castellan]

Hiya I have opinions about the dream and put something up about it ages ago. But for now I will just chime in on Lghtbringer

I have always thought Ice was the most interesting sword and the most likely to be Lightbringer:

• It's name is in the series title
• like the Starks, it journeys from north to south
• it is transformed and split like the Starks and also the Lannisters
• when reforged we see it is made of fire as well as Ice - the red streak - fire and blood
• Note in the preface, Waymar Royce fights with one of the Others, and his sword is frozen by the Other's icy sword - we need a firey sword!
• it has now ended up at the BWB camp where a momentous meeting is going to take place between Catelyn, Brienne and Jaime and probably Brynden (finding his way there after jaime foolishly let him escape)
• there is also a Baratheon smith at the camp, for an additional filip of interest!
• It has been wielded against the outlaws to good effect - astonishing Hyle Hunt - and that chapter is surrounded by Nimble Dick's chat about magic swords

However, I think we have seen from Beric that any sword can be a flaming sword - its from Beric's nature as having resurrected by Thoros's fire magic rather than in the sword - so I think whoever wields Lightbringer will be undead. 

In this context, a poster once put up a theory I really liked. He saw Thoros as AA and saw Beric and Catelyn as the beginnings of a chain of people being resurrected, and likened them to the attempts to forge Lightbringer.

Beric - the forging of the sword in fire, which failed (fire - his red hair, lightning sigil, the story of the founding of his house)

Catelyn - forging in water, which made the sword brittle (water - everything about the Tullys, their blue eyes, their sigil and and riverine location). He saw Catelyn turning into someone locked purely onto vengeance as an example of the firing failing.

The breast of a lion - the next attempt - can only be be bad news for Jaime. Jaime is the most notable lion in the book. Note this means Jaime is going to fail too. The people resurrected tend to get locked on a mission. I expect Jaime might get locked onto the wrong mission.

The breast of the beloved - well I think that will be Brienne. She is ironically called 'The Beauty' Evenstar is another name for Venus, and Jaime is becoming attached... 

Anyway that is a lump of possibly indigestible fan theory to throw in the thread. When I say 'I believe' I mean I am take with the idea but realise it could all be moonshine.

But reading the post above, I agree I can see a horrible possibility of Jaime heading off to join "Aegon".  My original thought was that Catelyn might kill him for vengeance but then resurrect him because she think he may be the one person who can find her children. If he heads off to serve someone else, he really will be betraying her this time. And what if he ended up killing Aegon, for some reason? He'll be doubly damned in the eyes of the world. I have a feeling only more failure is on the cards for Jaime, even as he struggles to finally grow up and come to terms with his past and try to be a true knight.

 

[The Map Guy]

On 12/13/2019 at 7:57 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'd pay money to know what this means, because it's a head-scratcher, but I don't know that everything is supposed to have meaning.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. 

4 Types of Medieval Light Sources:
- Sun ... Hot
- Fire ... Hot
- Lightning ... Temperature Unrelated
- Moonlight ... Cold

Cold light = Moon light = non-Targaryen, like a Lyanna Stark

 

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light = Prince Rhaegar had hot sex with Lyanna Stark

now white = now the focus changes on Rhaegar's bastard children, the white wolves ... like Jon Snow white

now red = the white wolves flirting with red R'hllor (Mel, LSH, the Last Kiss) 

now dark = the Dark Side of ASOIAF that no one wants to talk about

Everything GRRM writes has a meaning. It may not mean anything now, but after ASOIAF is fully completed and every book in the series has been published ... you may understand the meaning then. ASOIAF will probably be the most re-readable series ever after completion since GRRM hides Easter Eggs everywhere ... at least once every chapter so far that I have explored.

....okay now pay up! 

[Lollygag]

Wackadoodle-what-the-hell-ya-been-smokin’ crackpot ahead. And I also have a Christmas-impaired brain atm, so sorry this is so terribly slapdash. The bulk of said crackpot is here in more detail. https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/148905-is-craster-a-casterly-now-with-plot-relevance/

I strongly suspect that Jaime’s dream takes place in the bowels of Casterly Rock and this means he was supposed to be a sacrifice (your place), but not Tywin's is a big clue. Bear with me.

I really, really, really think that there’s stonemen/greyscale under Casterly Rock. Hence why specifically Casterly Rock gold is cursed to Valyrians and why they didn’t raid Casterly Rock despite raiding about everything else. On the side, I suspect it’s at Oldtown too, hence why the Valyrians also left that place alone. Pycelle recounts how he was exposed to a grey death epidemic as a child in Oldtown (was Pycelle immune hence his value and loyalty to Lannisters?) and he compares Lord Hightower to Tywin when Hightower took extreme measure to curtail the epidemic. Hmmmm.

I think that Lannisters, specifically children, are routinely sacrificed as part of an old, old, tradition that goes back to the Casterlys who were tied to the very sacrificy old school version of the Old Gods. Gold usually comes at a high cost in the stories. Also remember that the Casterlys' story started out with sacrificed/saved lions. Lannisters tend to have huge families and they tend to die which is convenient. Maybe this is why Rohanne disappeared?. But like the Starks and about everyone else in Westeros, the maybe Lannisters have forgotten their old ways and Tywin didn’t sacrifice Jaime because of his attachment. Perhaps it was Tytos who failed to pass this onto Tywin but we'll see. (ADWD Tyrion XII: "… and every family has its drooling cousins." Tyrion signed another note. The parchment crinkled crisply as he slid it toward the paymaster. "There are cells down in the bowels of Casterly Rock where my lord father kept the worst of ours." ). Maybe Tywin dwells the bowels of Casterly Rock with as much knowledge (or lack thereof) as Ned when he dwells the crypts of Winterfell.

But what goes around comes around and Jaime has been sacrificed anyhow—to Shrouded-Lord-esque-raised-from-the-dead-from-a-river-Lord Lady-of-the-Riverlands (land of the dead)-hooded/shrouded Stoneheart. Jaime totally belongs to her now. Foreshadowing. (AFFC Cersei VII where it was raining cats and dogs leaving water, water everywhere: Under the Great Sept's lofty dome of glass and gold and crystal, Lord Tywin Lannister's body rested upon a stepped marble bier. At its head Jaime stood at vigil, his one good hand curled about the hilt of a tall golden greatsword whose point rested on the floor. The hooded cloak he wore was as white as freshly fallen snow, and the scales of his long hauberk were mother-of-pearl chased with gold. Lord Tywin would have wanted him in Lannister gold and crimson, she thought. It always angered him to see Jaime all in white. Her brother was growing his beard again as well. The stubble covered his jaw and cheeks, and gave his face a rough, uncouth look. He might at least have waited till Father's bones were interred beneath the Rock. … She glanced at Jaime. Her twin stood as if he had been carved from stone, and would not meet her eyes.) Remember Garin was in a gold cage so gold plays some important role though I don't know what. Jaime is compared to snow which is frozen water. The Rhoynar men wore scaled armor.

 

Loads connecting the Lannisters to the Shrouded Lord and stonemen but I’ll leave the rest to the thread linked above. Here’s one bit more just to make my point.

Below we have Tyrion remembering Tysha. The kiss (jokingly) given to lazy Lannister servants and Tyrion’s kiss given to Tysha follows the same path as greyscale. I assume that kiss is a French kiss which follows the greyscale also moving inward - ahem. Note the giggling and the command to stop laughing which is a further tie to the Shrouded Lord/greyscale.

 

ACOK Tyrion XV

He dreamed of a better place, a snug little cottage by the sunset sea. The walls were lopsided and cracked and the floor had been made of packed earth, but he had always been warm there, even when they let the fire go out. She used to tease me about that, he remembered. I never thought to feed the fire, that had always been a servant's task. "We have no servants," she would remind me, and I would say, "You have me, I'm your servant," and she would say, "A lazy servant. What do they do with lazy servants in Casterly Rock, my lord?" and he would tell her, "They kiss them." That would always make her giggle. "They do not neither. They beat them, I bet," she would say, but he would insist, "No, they kiss them, just like this." He would show her how. "They kiss their fingers first, every one, and they kiss their wrists, yes, and inside their elbows. Then they kiss their funny ears, all our servants have funny ears. Stop laughing! And they kiss their cheeks and they kiss their noses with the little bump in them, there, so, like that, and they kiss their sweet brows and their hair and their lips, their . . . mmmm . . . mouths . . . so . . ."

 

ADWD Tyrion V (Remember Jaime's blind stone eyes above?)

Stone eyes are blind eyes, thought Tyrion. The mortal form of greyscale began in the extremities, he knew: a tingling in a fingertip, a toenail turning black, a loss of feeling. As the numbness crept into the hand, or stole past the foot and up the leg, the flesh stiffened and grew cold and the victim's skin took on a greyish hue, resembling stone. He had heard it said that there were three good cures for greyscale: axe and sword and cleaver. Hacking off afflicted parts did sometimes stop the spread of the disease, Tyrion knew, but not always. Many a man had sacrificed one arm or foot, only to find the other going grey. Once that happened, hope was gone. Blindness was common when the stone reached the face. In the final stages the curse turned inward, to muscles, bones, and inner organs.

ADWD Tyrion III

"Wisdom from a duck," said Haldon. "I beg your pardon, Yollo. You need not look so pale, I was only playing with you. The Prince of Sorrows does not bestow his grey kiss lightly."

His grey kiss. The thought made his flesh crawl. Death had lost its terror for Tyrion Lannister, but greyscale was another matter. The Shrouded Lord is just a legend, he told himself, no more real than the ghost of Lann the Clever that some claim haunts Casterly Rock. Even so, he held his tongue.

A few pages later…

A few people still remained amidst the squalor, tending little gardens in amongst the weeds. The sound of iron hooves ringing on the old Valyrian road sent most of them darting back into the holes they'd crawled from, but the bolder ones lingered in the sun long enough to stare at the passing riders with dull, incurious eyes. One naked girl with mud up to her knees could not seem to take her eyes off Tyrion. She has never seen a dwarf before, he realized, much less a dwarf without a nose. He made a face and stuck his tongue out, and the girl began to cry.

"What did you do to her?" Duck asked.

"I blew her a kiss. All the girls cry when I kiss them."

Remember the Shrouded Lord is also the Prince of Sorrows. 

-----------------------------------------------------

So we have stonemen in Casterly Rock which has its roots with the Old Gods. We also have stonemen of a different sort - or maybe not so different - in the crypts of Winterfell. Greyscale (water magic) follows the same path as frostbite which is what sounds like happens to the wights with their black extremities (hard-core water magic in ice magic). Seems like there's some connection there. I can't say what, but maybe there's added significance to Jaime/Brienne having ice. As to the combination of Jaime/Brienne carrying two parts of Ice, Lannisters have two faces and Brienne has replaced Cersei as Jaime's other face. Note that the Shrouded Lord also has two faces - the Prince of Sorrows likes a good laugh.

We don't have the KG oath and there seems to be a reason for that. The KG are constantly compared to snow - snow created to guard the fiery Targs. I think that was an intentional balance of power put in place by Aegon. The KG were supposed to keep their honor above all, thus no king could ask them to do anything dishonorable. It would keep the king honest so long as the checks and balances system was kept intact. But maybe like the NW and so much of Westeros who've forgotten, the KG lost their way too. Jaime was maybe the right one and not just ethically. The snowy-white cloaked Jaime was supposed to ice fire/ice Aerys if fire grew too unbalanced as the Rhoynar kept the Valyrians in check. And over the course of the story, the Lannisters have often kept the balance between fire and ice though in ways which left a lot to be desired. I'm guessing this is important for Jaime in the future.

[Seams]

I think this dream is showing a stage of Jaime's progression from the "shit for honor" trickle of wastewater pouring across Jaime's cell at Riverrun. This stage shows him beneath Casterly Rock where, we know from Tyrion's POV, there is a system of sewers. (We are also led to believe that Tywin shits gold, which might explain why Jaime is often seen in gold armor. The shit doesn't fall too far from the tree, as it were.)

Jaime's quest will take place largely in the Riverlands. Technically, the Lord of the Riverlands is Hoster Tully and then Edmure. But Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart is a POV so we are also aware that she was raised to be Hoster's heir for many years before her surprise baby brother became the heir. I think we see Lady Stoneheart as the "acting" ruler of the Riverlands after she sleeps in Hoster's bed, rises from the Green Fork and while Edmure is a Frey / Lannister hostage.

Why is the Riverlands angle significant? Because the red, blue and green forks of the Trident converge as they cross the Riverlands. I think Jaime might represent the Red Fork, with its headwaters starting just below the Golden Tooth in the westerlands:

On 12/13/2019 at 11:00 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The smell reminded Jaime Lannister of the pass below the Golden Tooth where he had won a glorious victory in the first days of the war. On the morning after the battle, the crows had feasted on victors and vanquished alike, as once they had feasted on Rhaegar Targaryen after the Trident. How much can a crown be worth, when a crow can dine upon a king? (16-Jaime I, AFfC 8)

Like Jaime's overturned bucket of shit for honor, the Red Fork is described as muddy and shallow.

If he doesn't embody the Red Fork, what we might be seeing is Jaime choosing to leave the Lannister-crimson Red Fork. He is joining Brienne. We all know Brienne is Renly's blue guard in his Rainbow Guard and that she and Jaime establish a lie about her family having a sapphire fortune when, in fact, the Sapphire nickname comes from the blue water surrounding her home.

Oh, right. Aside from shit, there are also gem and precious metal mines under Casterly Rock. Maybe this helps to explain why Brienne shows up at that location.

So who is the Green Fork? I think it's Renly, with his green armor. Brienne is the Blue Fork that mediates the merging of the Red and Green Forks of the Trident, allowing them to become one river. Under the guidance of Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart, of course.

Interesting side note: If the Lannisters represent the headwaters of the Red Fork, then we have "twins" presiding over key locations on both the Red and Green Forks: the Frey castle is known as The Twins. We don't have twins over the Blue Fork, but it is interesting that Brienne's brother died by drowning. We know that drowning often represents a rebirth (primarily for followers of the Drowned God, but also apparently for Patchface, Davos Seaworth and Ser Duncan the Tall). Maybe Brienne's brother Galladon lives on through her or within the water and helps to complete the "twin" symbolism for the Blue Fork.

A recent cursory re-examination of the Dance of the Dragons helped me with the beginnings of a new thought about black and green. The color change you see in Rhaegar in this scene (white to red to dark) may be GRRM trying to be a little coy about Rhaegar's membership in "team black." I'm really bad with all the Targ historical stuff, but the "black" Targaryen line is often paired with red iirc, such as the red dragon on black background.

It may be too tenuous, but I'm guessing that Aerys was a "team green" Targ because of the wildfire, which we all know burns with green light. (Or maybe there is better green symbolism associated with him that I haven't identified.) In the main series, we see wildfire burning on the Blackwater - perhaps the two forces were in balance in that situation.

The "black vs. green" notion is still vague in my mind but I think it may represent an ancient enmity between Garth Greenhand and the Storm God. This would explain why non-Targs participate in a "black vs. green" set of symbols, with a character like Rohanne Webber representing black and red (spiders) vs. Eustace Osgrey's green and gold.

On 12/16/2019 at 12:48 AM, Lollygag said:

The snowy-white cloaked Jaime was supposed to ice fire/ice Aerys if fire grew too unbalanced as the Rhoynar kept the Valyrians in check.

Yes.

On 12/16/2019 at 12:48 AM, Lollygag said:

But what goes around comes around and Jaime has been sacrificed anyhow—to Shrouded-Lord-esque-raised-from-the-dead-from-a-river-Lord Lady-of-the-Riverlands (land of the dead)-hooded/shrouded Stoneheart. Jaime totally belongs to her now.

Yes.

[Curled Finger]

On 12/14/2019 at 7:46 AM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I have no doubt that Jaime's arc will eventually collide with Jon's and Dany's. 

But the Targaryens were done in the story. Jon is still an unknown quantity. As far as the characters are concerned, he is the bastard son of Eddard Stark and is bound to the Wall. And Jaime knows that. But Dany is half a world away and there are no news of her, she is not mentioned by name again after AGoT until the prologue, AFfC. 

That being said, Jaime's guilt doesn't lie with Dany or Viserys. And it will not lie with Jon. Jaime was supposed to protect Aegon and Rhaenys. They were killed under his watch. And he thinks of them before he vanished in the riverlands with Brienne.

"My father has a saying too. Never wounds a foe when you can kill him. Dead men don't claim vengeance."
"Their sons do," said Hoster, apologetically.
"Not if you kill the sons as well. Ask the Casterlys about that if you doubt me. Ask Lord and Lady Tarbeck, or the Reynes of Castamere. Ask the Prince of Dragonstone." For an instant, the deep red clouds that crowned the western hills reminded him of Rhaegar's children, all wrapped up in crimson cloaks. (87-Jaime I, ADwD 48)

It so happens that one of those children that Jaime is thinking of, and claims to be Aegon Targaryen, the son of Rhaegar and Elia, has landed in Westeros. And that news coupled with the news of the fall of Storm's End to him and Jon Connington will reach Jaime and the BwB much quicker.

(It's funny, though, isn't it, how there are these characters trying to restore the Targaryens and the Starks around the same time)

Perhaps I misremember, but I thought Jamie was in on all the talk of the original small council.   Not that it really matters, I just assumed Jamie would know of Dany and might be pulled by his vows in her direction.  Indeed it will be very interesting to see Jamie's reaction to Aegon down south.  Yes, you've boiled a complicated lot of A to B to C to EFG in the restorations of these houses.   All good stuff, Lady.  

[Curled Finger]

On 12/14/2019 at 2:41 PM, Castellan said:

Hiya I have opinions about the dream and put something up about it ages ago. But for now I will just chime in on Lghtbringer

I have always thought Ice was the most interesting sword and the most likely to be Lightbringer:

• It's name is in the series title
• like the Starks, it journeys from north to south
• it is transformed and split like the Starks and also the Lannisters
• when reforged we see it is made of fire as well as Ice - the red streak - fire and blood
• Note in the preface, Waymar Royce fights with one of the Others, and his sword is frozen by the Other's icy sword - we need a firey sword!
• it has now ended up at the BWB camp where a momentous meeting is going to take place between Catelyn, Brienne and Jaime and probably Brynden (finding his way there after jaime foolishly let him escape)
• there is also a Baratheon smith at the camp, for an additional filip of interest!
• It has been wielded against the outlaws to good effect - astonishing Hyle Hunt - and that chapter is surrounded by Nimble Dick's chat about magic swords

However, I think we have seen from Beric that any sword can be a flaming sword - its from Beric's nature as having resurrected by Thoros's fire magic rather than in the sword - so I think whoever wields Lightbringer will be undead. 

In this context, a poster once put up a theory I really liked. He saw Thoros as AA and saw Beric and Catelyn as the beginnings of a chain of people being resurrected, and likened them to the attempts to forge Lightbringer.

Beric - the forging of the sword in fire, which failed (fire - his red hair, lightning sigil, the story of the founding of his house)

Catelyn - forging in water, which made the sword brittle (water - everything about the Tullys, their blue eyes, their sigil and and riverine location). He saw Catelyn turning into someone locked purely onto vengeance as an example of the firing failing.

The breast of a lion - the next attempt - can only be be bad news for Jaime. Jaime is the most notable lion in the book. Note this means Jaime is going to fail too. The people resurrected tend to get locked on a mission. I expect Jaime might get locked onto the wrong mission.

The breast of the beloved - well I think that will be Brienne. She is ironically called 'The Beauty' Evenstar is another name for Venus, and Jaime is becoming attached... 

Anyway that is a lump of possibly indigestible fan theory to throw in the thread. When I say 'I believe' I mean I am take with the idea but realise it could all be moonshine.

But reading the post above, I agree I can see a horrible possibility of Jaime heading off to join "Aegon".  My original thought was that Catelyn might kill him for vengeance but then resurrect him because she think he may be the one person who can find her children. If he heads off to serve someone else, he really will be betraying her this time. And what if he ended up killing Aegon, for some reason? He'll be doubly damned in the eyes of the world. I have a feeling only more failure is on the cards for Jaime, even as he struggles to finally grow up and come to terms with his past and try to be a true knight.

 

While I don't necessarily agree with all you've written because we all read this story differently, I can't help but totally and completely dig all your arguments.  I don't believe I've ever seen the Beric/Cat/??Brienne?? deaths compared in the Lightbringer forging tale.  That's just very bitchen and even makes sense!   I think you get bonus points for that last bit.   Loved your breakdown and logic, Man.  I've bandied the ideas of both Jamie and Brienne dying at Stoneheart's hands, but I've never been able to see either scenario through.   This makes you a visionary!   Forget the fan theory, that is all textually based with some of your very own connections made along the way.  Right or wrong, it makes interesting reading and I thank you for sharing this with me.  Right on!

[Curled Finger]

On 12/14/2019 at 11:25 PM, The Map Guy said:

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. 

4 Types of Medieval Light Sources:
- Sun ... Hot
- Fire ... Hot
- Lightning ... Temperature Unrelated
- Moonlight ... Cold

Cold light = Moon light = non-Targaryen, like a Lyanna Stark

 

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light = Prince Rhaegar had hot sex with Lyanna Stark

now white = now the focus changes on Rhaegar's bastard children, the white wolves ... like Jon Snow white

now red = the white wolves flirting with red R'hllor (Mel, LSH, the Last Kiss) 

now dark = the Dark Side of ASOIAF that no one wants to talk about

Everything GRRM writes has a meaning. It may not mean anything now, but after ASOIAF is fully completed and every book in the series has been published ... you may understand the meaning then. ASOIAF will probably be the most re-readable series ever after completion since GRRM hides Easter Eggs everywhere ... at least once every chapter so far that I have explored.

....okay now pay up! 

Love it.  

[Curled Finger]

On 12/15/2019 at 9:48 PM, Lollygag said:

Wackadoodle-what-the-hell-ya-been-smokin’ crackpot ahead. And I also have a Christmas-impaired brain atm, so sorry this is so terribly slapdash. The bulk of said crackpot is here in more detail. https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/148905-is-craster-a-casterly-now-with-plot-relevance/

I strongly suspect that Jaime’s dream takes place in the bowels of Casterly Rock and this means he was supposed to be a sacrifice (your place), but not Tywin's is a big clue. Bear with me.

I really, really, really think that there’s stonemen/greyscale under Casterly Rock. Hence why specifically Casterly Rock gold is cursed to Valyrians and why they didn’t raid Casterly Rock despite raiding about everything else. On the side, I suspect it’s at Oldtown too, hence why the Valyrians also left that place alone. Pycelle recounts how he was exposed to a grey death epidemic as a child in Oldtown (was Pycelle immune hence his value and loyalty to Lannisters?) and he compares Lord Hightower to Tywin when Hightower took extreme measure to curtail the epidemic. Hmmmm.

I think that Lannisters, specifically children, are routinely sacrificed as part of an old, old, tradition that goes back to the Casterlys who were tied to the very sacrificy old school version of the Old Gods. Gold usually comes at a high cost in the stories. Also remember that the Casterlys' story started out with sacrificed/saved lions. Lannisters tend to have huge families and they tend to die which is convenient. Maybe this is why Rohanne disappeared?. But like the Starks and about everyone else in Westeros, the maybe Lannisters have forgotten their old ways and Tywin didn’t sacrifice Jaime because of his attachment. Perhaps it was Tytos who failed to pass this onto Tywin but we'll see. (ADWD Tyrion XII: "… and every family has its drooling cousins." Tyrion signed another note. The parchment crinkled crisply as he slid it toward the paymaster. "There are cells down in the bowels of Casterly Rock where my lord father kept the worst of ours." ). Maybe Tywin dwells the bowels of Casterly Rock with as much knowledge (or lack thereof) as Ned when he dwells the crypts of Winterfell.

But what goes around comes around and Jaime has been sacrificed anyhow—to Shrouded-Lord-esque-raised-from-the-dead-from-a-river-Lord Lady-of-the-Riverlands (land of the dead)-hooded/shrouded Stoneheart. Jaime totally belongs to her now. Foreshadowing. (AFFC Cersei VII where it was raining cats and dogs leaving water, water everywhere: Under the Great Sept's lofty dome of glass and gold and crystal, Lord Tywin Lannister's body rested upon a stepped marble bier. At its head Jaime stood at vigil, his one good hand curled about the hilt of a tall golden greatsword whose point rested on the floor. The hooded cloak he wore was as white as freshly fallen snow, and the scales of his long hauberk were mother-of-pearl chased with gold. Lord Tywin would have wanted him in Lannister gold and crimson, she thought. It always angered him to see Jaime all in white. Her brother was growing his beard again as well. The stubble covered his jaw and cheeks, and gave his face a rough, uncouth look. He might at least have waited till Father's bones were interred beneath the Rock. … She glanced at Jaime. Her twin stood as if he had been carved from stone, and would not meet her eyes.) Remember Garin was in a gold cage so gold plays some important role though I don't know what. Jaime is compared to snow which is frozen water. The Rhoynar men wore scaled armor.

Loads connecting the Lannisters to the Shrouded Lord and stonemen but I’ll leave the rest to the thread linked above. Here’s one bit more just to make my point.

Below we have Tyrion remembering Tysha. The kiss (jokingly) given to lazy Lannister servants and Tyrion’s kiss given to Tysha follows the same path as greyscale. I assume that kiss is a French kiss which follows the greyscale also moving inward - ahem. Note the giggling and the command to stop laughing which is a further tie to the Shrouded Lord/greyscale.

ACOK Tyrion XV

He dreamed of a better place, a snug little cottage by the sunset sea. The walls were lopsided and cracked and the floor had been made of packed earth, but he had always been warm there, even when they let the fire go out. She used to tease me about that, he remembered. I never thought to feed the fire, that had always been a servant's task. "We have no servants," she would remind me, and I would say, "You have me, I'm your servant," and she would say, "A lazy servant. What do they do with lazy servants in Casterly Rock, my lord?" and he would tell her, "They kiss them." That would always make her giggle. "They do not neither. They beat them, I bet," she would say, but he would insist, "No, they kiss them, just like this." He would show her how. "They kiss their fingers first, every one, and they kiss their wrists, yes, and inside their elbows. Then they kiss their funny ears, all our servants have funny ears. Stop laughing! And they kiss their cheeks and they kiss their noses with the little bump in them, there, so, like that, and they kiss their sweet brows and their hair and their lips, their . . . mmmm . . . mouths . . . so . . ."

ADWD Tyrion V (Remember Jaime's blind stone eyes above?)

Stone eyes are blind eyes, thought Tyrion. The mortal form of greyscale began in the extremities, he knew: a tingling in a fingertip, a toenail turning black, a loss of feeling. As the numbness crept into the hand, or stole past the foot and up the leg, the flesh stiffened and grew cold and the victim's skin took on a greyish hue, resembling stone. He had heard it said that there were three good cures for greyscale: axe and sword and cleaver. Hacking off afflicted parts did sometimes stop the spread of the disease, Tyrion knew, but not always. Many a man had sacrificed one arm or foot, only to find the other going grey. Once that happened, hope was gone. Blindness was common when the stone reached the face. In the final stages the curse turned inward, to muscles, bones, and inner organs.

ADWD Tyrion III

"Wisdom from a duck," said Haldon. "I beg your pardon, Yollo. You need not look so pale, I was only playing with you. The Prince of Sorrows does not bestow his grey kiss lightly."

His grey kiss. The thought made his flesh crawl. Death had lost its terror for Tyrion Lannister, but greyscale was another matter. The Shrouded Lord is just a legend, he told himself, no more real than the ghost of Lann the Clever that some claim haunts Casterly Rock. Even so, he held his tongue.

A few pages later…

A few people still remained amidst the squalor, tending little gardens in amongst the weeds. The sound of iron hooves ringing on the old Valyrian road sent most of them darting back into the holes they'd crawled from, but the bolder ones lingered in the sun long enough to stare at the passing riders with dull, incurious eyes. One naked girl with mud up to her knees could not seem to take her eyes off Tyrion. She has never seen a dwarf before, he realized, much less a dwarf without a nose. He made a face and stuck his tongue out, and the girl began to cry.

"What did you do to her?" Duck asked.

"I blew her a kiss. All the girls cry when I kiss them."

Remember the Shrouded Lord is also the Prince of Sorrows. 

So we have stonemen in Casterly Rock which has its roots with the Old Gods. We also have stonemen of a different sort - or maybe not so different - in the crypts of Winterfell. Greyscale (water magic) follows the same path as frostbite which is what sounds like happens to the wights with their black extremities (hard-core water magic in ice magic). Seems like there's some connection there. I can't say what, but maybe there's added significance to Jaime/Brienne having ice. As to the combination of Jaime/Brienne carrying two parts of Ice, Lannisters have two faces and Brienne has replaced Cersei as Jaime's other face. Note that the Shrouded Lord also has two faces - the Prince of Sorrows likes a good laugh.

We don't have the KG oath and there seems to be a reason for that. The KG are constantly compared to snow - snow created to guard the fiery Targs. I think that was an intentional balance of power put in place by Aegon. The KG were supposed to keep their honor above all, thus no king could ask them to do anything dishonorable. It would keep the king honest so long as the checks and balances system was kept intact. But maybe like the NW and so much of Westeros who've forgotten, the KG lost their way too. Jaime was maybe the right one and not just ethically. The snowy-white cloaked Jaime was supposed to ice fire/ice Aerys if fire grew too unbalanced as the Rhoynar kept the Valyrians in check. And over the course of the story, the Lannisters have often kept the balance between fire and ice though in ways which left a lot to be desired. I'm guessing this is important for Jaime in the future.

I've missed you so much, Lolly.  You can always be counted on to bring something fantastic and unlooked for to every conversation you get into.   I'm very pleased this caught your attention.   

[Curled Finger]

On 12/16/2019 at 9:38 AM, Seams said:

I think this dream is showing a stage of Jaime's progression from the "shit for honor" trickle of wastewater pouring across Jaime's cell at Riverrun. This stage shows him beneath Casterly Rock where, we know from Tyrion's POV, there is a system of sewers. (We are also led to believe that Tywin shits gold, which might explain why Jaime is often seen in gold armor. The shit doesn't fall too far from the tree, as it were.)

Jaime's quest will take place largely in the Riverlands. Technically, the Lord of the Riverlands is Hoster Tully and then Edmure. But Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart is a POV so we are also aware that she was raised to be Hoster's heir for many years before her surprise baby brother became the heir. I think we see Lady Stoneheart as the "acting" ruler of the Riverlands after she sleeps in Hoster's bed, rises from the Green Fork and while Edmure is a Frey / Lannister hostage.

Why is the Riverlands angle significant? Because the red, blue and green forks of the Trident converge as they cross the Riverlands. I think Jaime might represent the Red Fork, with its headwaters starting just below the Golden Tooth in the westerlands:

Like Jaime's overturned bucket of shit for honor, the Red Fork is described as muddy and shallow.

If he doesn't embody the Red Fork, what we might be seeing is Jaime choosing to leave the Lannister-crimson Red Fork. He is joining Brienne. We all know Brienne is Renly's blue guard in his Rainbow Guard and that she and Jaime establish a lie about her family having a sapphire fortune when, in fact, the Sapphire nickname comes from the blue water surrounding her home.

Oh, right. Aside from shit, there are also gem and precious metal mines under Casterly Rock. Maybe this helps to explain why Brienne shows up at that location.

So who is the Green Fork? I think it's Renly, with his green armor. Brienne is the Blue Fork that mediates the merging of the Red and Green Forks of the Trident, allowing them to become one river. Under the guidance of Catelyn / Lady Stoneheart, of course.

Interesting side note: If the Lannisters represent the headwaters of the Red Fork, then we have "twins" presiding over key locations on both the Red and Green Forks: the Frey castle is known as The Twins. We don't have twins over the Blue Fork, but it is interesting that Brienne's brother died by drowning. We know that drowning often represents a rebirth (primarily for followers of the Drowned God, but also apparently for Patchface, Davos Seaworth and Ser Duncan the Tall). Maybe Brienne's brother Galladon lives on through her or within the water and helps to complete the "twin" symbolism for the Blue Fork.

A recent cursory re-examination of the Dance of the Dragons helped me with the beginnings of a new thought about black and green. The color change you see in Rhaegar in this scene (white to red to dark) may be GRRM trying to be a little coy about Rhaegar's membership in "team black." I'm really bad with all the Targ historical stuff, but the "black" Targaryen line is often paired with red iirc, such as the red dragon on black background.

It may be too tenuous, but I'm guessing that Aerys was a "team green" Targ because of the wildfire, which we all know burns with green light. (Or maybe there is better green symbolism associated with him that I haven't identified.) In the main series, we see wildfire burning on the Blackwater - perhaps the two forces were in balance in that situation.

The "black vs. green" notion is still vague in my mind but I think it may represent an ancient enmity between Garth Greenhand and the Storm God. This would explain why non-Targs participate in a "black vs. green" set of symbols, with a character like Rohanne Webber representing black and red (spiders) vs. Eustace Osgrey's green and gold.

Yes.

Yes.

Hiya Seams!   It's so good to chat with you.   I can't tell you how many times I've quoted you during my absence.   I still can't keep up with you but I am eager to deposit a thought or two...I also connected the dream caverns to the subterranean sewers because I can remember 1 in 20 things I read in this story.   That's as far as I got.   This possibility with nothing further.  I enjoyed your connections and suppositions, though I would have never made them myself.   It's always a treat to see you.  Thanks for another really unique Seams answer to my silly table setting questions.   

[Seams]

On 12/12/2019 at 3:39 PM, Curled Finger said:

What do Rhaegar’s changing colors mean? 

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark.

Mining old posts today, I found that Joffrey turned red and then black as he was choking at his wedding feast. I took his color change as symbolic forging of a sword - people are hitting him on the back and Mace Tyrell is "bellowing" as Joffrey dies.

Maybe Rhaegar is symbolically being reforged as well.

[Curled Finger]

16 hours ago, Seams said:

Mining old posts today, I found that Joffrey turned red and then black as he was choking at his wedding feast. I took his color change as symbolic forging of a sword - people are hitting him on the back and Mace Tyrell is "bellowing" as Joffrey dies.

Maybe Rhaegar is symbolically being reforged as well.

Ok, I can see that with your explanation, but not a connection I would have made without you.  Seems to me that the colors are specific to Rhaegar, sure, but the KG are white without much deviation.   I think I'm looking for something there, but this is Jamie's battered mind, so it may well be a bad assumption.   When I 1st joined the forum there was a lot of talk about colors relating to different things fairly consistently.   At that point it was gemstones and though I don't recall what each gemstone was supposed to signify, that sort of hidden meaning has stayed with me, for better or worse.  When things change color in my everyday world I'm usually playing with a thing designed by nature to do so.  This is Jamie's head and this transformation is so specific, as with Joff.   But Joffrey was dying and the color changes make sense.   Maybe it's just my interpretation, but color seems vivid and important in this dream.   I just don't know what to make of it.   Thanks much for the Joffrey consideration.   Could be Rhaegar's life, purpose and dying in Jamie's mind...