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Curled Finger

Table Setting - Jamie's First Dream

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great thread CF & all contributors -  took me a bit to catch up!

my thought on the Rhaegar color thing - when I thought on that part of Jaime's dream - all i could think of was Melisandre's ruby.  Most all the descriptions of Melisandre and her ruby are (usually) - either something about darkness, a adjective/adverb of the red of the ruby, and with something light/white and without getting x-rated, it is always described as 'pulsing', 'shimmering'. 'glowing' etc ...
maybe there is a Rhaegar and Rholler connection of sort? 
i can't begin to extrapolate more other than offer the observation that Lannisters use ruby gems in their house emblems and so do the Targaryens - we know Rhaegar had rubies on his battle armor for example.

in general regards to Jaime's first dream - he hasn't lost his hand in this dream.  he asks for a sword without thinking about how will he ever use it and he picks the sword without even thinking of it and in the description of his actions in the dream, it doesn't seem that he is impaired (or worried about missing his sword hand) in any way. 
either his fresh injury doesn't/didn't affect his subconscious or this means something else or doesn't mean anything at all.

we really don't know much about Casterly Rock do we?  ...  i really like the grey-scale connection that has been made above (good job Lollygag, totally interesting), that could be a true connection, i think those caverns and such of The Rock have yet to be fully discovered.

 

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On 12/14/2019 at 9:28 AM, Curled Finger said:

I've wondered if the KG are not some sort of stand in for the Others if there is prophecy in this dream.  That's an interesting take, how did you get to Jamie and Brienne being the sun and moon? 

Jaime being the sun is pretty straightforward, he a beautiful man with golden hair, and golden armor, golden sword, and a golden lion is symbolic of the sun.

"the morning sun was in his hair, giving it a golden glow."

"Jaime, riding out onto a tourney field with lance in hand, his golden armor flashing in the sun."

"his golden armor bright in the light of the rising sun."

Also, in Hindu mythology, Savitar is a golden sun god (more specifically the god of the sun at dawn) who cut off his hand and replaced it with a golden prosthetic hand.

 

Brienne is a huge woman with a wide, pale, spotted, messed-up face.  Other characters who have a wide face are described as moon-faced.  Brienne is a huge pale maiden with a face like the moon--a Moon-Pale Maiden.  I think everything about her and her house is astronomy related.  Their castle is Evenfall.  The sigil of Tarth is a sun and moon, (and the moon might be in partial eclipse).  Tarth might be T'Earth, and Tarth is a Sapphire Isle in the sea--like Earth is a pale blue dot in space.  The Lord of Tarth is called "the Evenstar"--which is the planet Venus. 

In Irish mythology, Bran's Cauldron brings the dead back to life.  I think George interpreted Bran's Cauldron as a black moon that brings the dead back to life--or more correctly that black moon that when it eclipses the sun allows the Others to invade, since they cannot exist in daylight.  Bran's Cauldron gets blown up by Bran's half-brother named Efnissien (who has a twin named Nissien--so basically Nissien and Nissien).  (Also, Bran the Blessed is described as a giant floating head, and he later gets decapitated but the head remains alive.) 

Brienne had a brother named Galladon who drowned, and gaileadan means "kettle" in gaelic, the moon had a brother who was a black moon. The Story of Galladon of Morne describes him as the Perfect Knight--what if it was really a perfect night--as in the Long Night.  He was haunted by ghostly knights--that is, he was accompanied by the Others.  It is a jumbled-up account of the Long Night--about a black moon, an eclipse, and the invasion of the Others. 

Brienne's father is Selwyn, in Welsh celwrn means "tub, bucket, pail" and cerwyn means "tub, or vat"

So the story of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, who is twice mentioned in conjunction with Symeon Star-Eyes, who is an Other with sapphire eyes.  And recall that the Tarth castle is Evenfall--a synonym for Nightfall, and "the Evenstar" has similar nightfall connotations.

The character of Brienne is based on Maegwin from Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, they are both gigantic women who are not comfortable in their own skin and Maegwin frequently mentions Brynioch the Sky God.  (and in Gaelic breine means "a bold woman" as well as "surly" and "gross")  maighdean means "maiden" in Gaelic, and magien means "phosphorescent" in Welsh.  So, pale glowing maiden.

Oh, and the blue swords that Jaime and Brienne have in the weirwood dream are comet swords that are the only thing that can knock the black moon out of eclipse to bring the Dawn. 

 

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Awww man i got bamboozled

 

"Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark" was taken out of context.

 

The entire line is:
Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. "I left my wife and children in your hands."

I stand by what I said earlier about this line ... how its about Rhaegar's paramour and his children.

 

"I left my [...] children in your hands." = Rhaegar's children will be in Jaime's hands

If you guys only knew the power of the Dark Side, your re-reads would be more fulfilling!

 

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12 hours ago, Yaya said:

great thread CF & all contributors -  took me a bit to catch up!

my thought on the Rhaegar color thing - when I thought on that part of Jaime's dream - all i could think of was Melisandre's ruby.  Most all the descriptions of Melisandre and her ruby are (usually) - either something about darkness, a adjective/adverb of the red of the ruby, and with something light/white and without getting x-rated, it is always described as 'pulsing', 'shimmering'. 'glowing' etc ...
maybe there is a Rhaegar and Rholler connection of sort? 
i can't begin to extrapolate more other than offer the observation that Lannisters use ruby gems in their house emblems and so do the Targaryens - we know Rhaegar had rubies on his battle armor for example.

in general regards to Jaime's first dream - he hasn't lost his hand in this dream.  he asks for a sword without thinking about how will he ever use it and he picks the sword without even thinking of it and in the description of his actions in the dream, it doesn't seem that he is impaired (or worried about missing his sword hand) in any way. 
either his fresh injury doesn't/didn't affect his subconscious or this means something else or doesn't mean anything at all.

we really don't know much about Casterly Rock do we?  ...  i really like the grey-scale connection that has been made above (good job Lollygag, totally interesting), that could be a true connection, i think those caverns and such of The Rock have yet to be fully discovered.

 

Yaya!  This is a fun bit and we all do enjoy our Jamie/Brienne stuff a lot.   Can't wait to read them in TWOW.  May skip straight to them.   You make a really interesting connection between Rhaegar & R'hllor.  Can't tell you how many times I've wonder why the Valyrians didn't adopt R'hllor for their own.  We've got R'hllor, the Lord of Light as well as his hero, Azor Ahai.  Then we've got Rhaegar, the hope of the kingdom and House Targaryen.  It's there, I just can't see the connection clearly.  This color changing could well be some nod to R'hllor or even Azor Ahai for all the excellent reasons you bring to the table.   I've got to go check my facts a bit, as I thought the Lannisters used garnets in their sigils.  Tywin incorporating rubies into the hilts of his stolen Valyrian Steel sword(s) seemed to be a new thing.   Of course, Tywin was pretty drunk on his success at the time and that may have simply been an illustration of his belief that House Lannister had risen as high as Targaryen.  Hrm, wonder if that all by itself means anything?   As to Jamie's hand, I may well have mixed up my mediums here as much as I try to remove myself and scrub the memory of the show from my head, it's not nearly as easy as I would like it to be.   Long live the book purists!   At any rate, hand or not, Jamie was very ill at the time he had the dream, that's all I was trying to stress.   Jamie's 1st dream has just always smacked of Ned's fever dream to me.  

Yah, tons of great ideas about where those watery caverns really are.    Maybe not entirely enough information yet, but we have some great stuff!   It's really good to see you here.   Thanks for dropping in.  

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11 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Jaime being the sun is pretty straightforward, he a beautiful man with golden hair, and golden armor, golden sword, and a golden lion is symbolic of the sun.

"the morning sun was in his hair, giving it a golden glow."

"Jaime, riding out onto a tourney field with lance in hand, his golden armor flashing in the sun."

"his golden armor bright in the light of the rising sun."

Also, in Hindu mythology, Savitar is a golden sun god (more specifically the god of the sun at dawn) who cut off his hand and replaced it with a golden prosthetic hand.

 

Brienne is a huge woman with a wide, pale, spotted, messed-up face.  Other characters who have a wide face are described as moon-faced.  Brienne is a huge pale maiden with a face like the moon--a Moon-Pale Maiden.  I think everything about her and her house is astronomy related.  Their castle is Evenfall.  The sigil of Tarth is a sun and moon, (and the moon might be in partial eclipse).  Tarth might be T'Earth, and Tarth is a Sapphire Isle in the sea--like Earth is a pale blue dot in space.  The Lord of Tarth is called "the Evenstar"--which is the planet Venus. 

In Irish mythology, Bran's Cauldron brings the dead back to life.  I think George interpreted Bran's Cauldron as a black moon that brings the dead back to life--or more correctly that black moon that when it eclipses the sun allows the Others to invade, since they cannot exist in daylight.  Bran's Cauldron gets blown up by Bran's half-brother named Efnissien (who has a twin named Nissien--so basically Nissien and Nissien).  (Also, Bran the Blessed is described as a giant floating head, and he later gets decapitated but the head remains alive.) 

Brienne had a brother named Galladon who drowned, and gaileadan means "kettle" in gaelic, the moon had a brother who was a black moon. The Story of Galladon of Morne describes him as the Perfect Knight--what if it was really a perfect night--as in the Long Night.  He was haunted by ghostly knights--that is, he was accompanied by the Others.  It is a jumbled-up account of the Long Night--about a black moon, an eclipse, and the invasion of the Others. 

Brienne's father is Selwyn, in Welsh celwrn means "tub, bucket, pail" and cerwyn means "tub, or vat"

So the story of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, who is twice mentioned in conjunction with Symeon Star-Eyes, who is an Other with sapphire eyes.  And recall that the Tarth castle is Evenfall--a synonym for Nightfall, and "the Evenstar" has similar nightfall connotations.

The character of Brienne is based on Maegwin from Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, they are both gigantic women who are not comfortable in their own skin and Maegwin frequently mentions Brynioch the Sky God.  (and in Gaelic breine means "a bold woman" as well as "surly" and "gross")  maighdean means "maiden" in Gaelic, and magien means "phosphorescent" in Welsh.  So, pale glowing maiden.

Oh, and the blue swords that Jaime and Brienne have in the weirwood dream are comet swords that are the only thing that can knock the black moon out of eclipse to bring the Dawn. 

 

Man, Odin's Beard, on my best day I cannot make these types of symbolism sing the way you do.   Thanks very much for taking the time to clarify for me.  Very very cool. 

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10 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Awww man i got bamboozled

 

"Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark" was taken out of context.

 

The entire line is:
Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. "I left my wife and children in your hands."

I stand by what I said earlier about this line ... how its about Rhaegar's paramour and his children.

 

"I left my [...] children in your hands." = Rhaegar's children will be in Jaime's hands

If you guys only knew the power of the Dark Side, your re-reads would be more fulfilling!

 

I love it that you have the courage to carry on and stand your ground.   I don't know what the power of the Dark Side is though I am clear on the second sentence meaning.  I agree with your confidence that Rhaegar's children will be in Jamie's hands.   I'm just not sure why dream Rhaegar needs to change colors and what about that color changing is important enough for Jamie to note it.   Could be something you people who really get the symbolism see crystal clear.   Trying!   

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CF - you are correct, I am the mixer upper of the dreams.

i'm re-reading through now.  thanks!

 

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Hope to catch up with this thread later in more detail so sorry if I'm covering something someone else brought up. Rhaegar burned cold, red then dark - the lifecycle of a dying star.

https://www.universetoday.com/24362/blue-stars/

The star in this pic definitely looks cold. Contrary to our common thinking, cold-looking blue/white stars are the largest and hottest.

Quote

Blue stars are made of the same stuff as all the other stars in the Universe; they’re about 75% hydrogen and 24% helium with trace amounts of other elements. So what makes a blue star… blue?

The color of a star comes from its temperature. The coolest stars appear red, while the hottest stars are blue. And for a star, the only thing that defines the temperature of a star is its mass. Blue stars are stars that have at least 3 times the mass of the Sun and up. Whether a star has 10 times the mass of the Sun or 150 solar masses, it’s going to appear blue to our eyes.

Stars turn red as they cool and shrink, then they turn dark. Stars that are massive enough can turn to black holes, but if not, they go dark. Black hole sun for any Soundgarden fans out there. His death certainly left a sort of political black hole.

http://www.astronomy.com/news/2017/05/black-hole-sun

For me, Rhaegar as a dying then dead star gives weight to Jaime's responsibility for Rhaegar's kids. Hint from Jaime that maybe  Rhaegar didn't expect to survive or maybe just gave of a fatalistic/doomed vibe? Certainly sounds like him.

 

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10 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Hope to catch up with this thread later in more detail so sorry if I'm covering something someone else brought up. Rhaegar burned cold, red then dark - the lifecycle of a dying star.

https://www.universetoday.com/24362/blue-stars/

The star in this pic definitely looks cold. Contrary to our common thinking, cold-looking blue/white stars are the largest and hottest.

Stars turn red as they cool and shrink, then they turn dark. Stars that are massive enough can turn to black holes, but if not, they go dark. Black hole sun for any Soundgarden fans out there. His death certainly left a sort of political black hole.

http://www.astronomy.com/news/2017/05/black-hole-sun

For me, Rhaegar as a dying then dead star gives weight to Jaime's responsibility for Rhaegar's kids. Hint from Jaime that maybe  Rhaegar didn't expect to survive or maybe just gave of a fatalistic/doomed vibe? Certainly sounds like him.

 

Wow.  That's very very cool.  

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11 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Hope to catch up with this thread later in more detail so sorry if I'm covering something someone else brought up. Rhaegar burned cold, red then dark - the lifecycle of a dying star.

https://www.universetoday.com/24362/blue-stars/

The star in this pic definitely looks cold. Contrary to our common thinking, cold-looking blue/white stars are the largest and hottest.

Stars turn red as they cool and shrink, then they turn dark. Stars that are massive enough can turn to black holes, but if not, they go dark. Black hole sun for any Soundgarden fans out there. His death certainly left a sort of political black hole.

http://www.astronomy.com/news/2017/05/black-hole-sun

For me, Rhaegar as a dying then dead star gives weight to Jaime's responsibility for Rhaegar's kids. Hint from Jaime that maybe  Rhaegar didn't expect to survive or maybe just gave of a fatalistic/doomed vibe? Certainly sounds like him.

This is really interesting. Wouldn't that in some way make Rhaegar a "bleeding star" in this dream (aware of very strong winds blowing toward crackpot)? Jaime's sword flaming gutters out slowly during the confrontation with Rhaegar and the Kingsguard, while Brienne's is still burning. 

All I found about the colors is that they are might be the colors of shadow, whatever that means and that red falls between white and black in the spectrum. So going from white to red to black makes some sense I guess.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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On 12/19/2019 at 6:36 PM, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Did you, now? That means I don't got to pay for nothing!

HA! I got bamboozled because I offered my service from the Dark Side to answer an ASOIAF riddle, with the understanding that I would get paid! :P

And I should get paid DOUBLE because I answered the riddle without the full line! IF "I left my wife and children in your hands" wasn't left out initially, I wouldn't have worked as hard! lol

 

On 12/19/2019 at 11:55 AM, Curled Finger said:

I don't know what the power of the Dark Side

The Dark Side is a collection of unpopular theories written by me. It is unpopular because no one wants to talk about it or contest it.

But for those who have read them, know there is potential power in them ... power that would rock the ASOIAF fandom.

Where as the TV show disappointed millions of people ... the Dark Side will not. 
Where everything in the TV show was "Yes and No and Yes and No" ... the Dark Side is "Yes and Yes and Yes and Yes".  
Where things didn't make sense in the TV show ... every major storyline logically arcs to a tear-jerker in the Dark Side.

But the Dark Side does comes with consequences. Some things are hard to accept, like:

  • The popular R+L=J theory is actually incorrect and incomplete.
  • The wackiest most tin-foilest theory in ASOIAF history, Top Secret Theory, is actually all true.
  • It has an outrageous theory that Star Wars actually influenced the publication timeline of ASOIAF, and how GRRM has a secret vendetta against George Lucas (with Lucas not even knowing it!).
  • A crazy clown like me, the Map Guy, is spear-heading the Dark Side.

 

Sorry, back to the OP.

Everything in the Wot5K & ASOIAF started out with Jaime pushing Bran off the thunderstuck tower, with Bran falling down & down.

In the Dark Side, ASOIAF arcs to the ending with Jaime and Bran teaming up ... and Jaime is the one falling down & down this time.

The entire Jaime fever dream of the OP is about that ADOS event. Jaime is falling down & down for glory ... and ends up in water. Does he succeed in this glory? Or does he fail?

Where as the TV show was Yes and No and Yes and No ... the Dark Side is Yes and Yes and Yes and Yes.

 

Also the Dark Side has the best formulas for re-reads.

Edited by The Map Guy
search your feelings, you know it to be true!!

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On 12/19/2019 at 10:20 PM, Lollygag said:

Rhaegar burned cold, red then dark - the lifecycle of a dying star.

In Welsh, the phrase Rhagori Ar means "to eclipse"--an eclipse could be seen as a star dying, then coming back to life. 

 

I just had a breakthrough about the significance of the phrase "mirror shield" of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, (recall that cerwyn means "kettle") in gaelic sgail means "shadow or eclipse" as well as "reflection".  And George wrote a story years ago called Only Kids are Afraid of the Dark, where Saagael was a god of darkness who wanted to create a Long Night that never ended.  In ASOIAF they still worship Saagael in Lys.  And Saagael is mentioned as one of the Seven cosmic deities in The Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr.  And the Seven take turns haunting the sky above Laren's castle:

Quote

The sky was very dark, but she could see clearly, for against the darkness a shape was moving. Light poured from it, and the dirt in the courtyard and the stones of the battlements and the gray pennants were all bright beneath its glow. Puzzling, Sharra looked up.

Something looked back. It was taller than the mountains and it filled up half the sky, and though it gave off light enough to see the castle by, Sharra knew that it was dark beyond darkness. It had a man-shape, roughly, and it wore a long cape and a cowl, and below that was blackness even fouler than the rest. The only sounds were Laren’s soft breathing and the beating of her heart and the distant weeping of a mourning-bird, but in her head Sharra could hear demonic laughter.

The sigil of House Banefort is a Hooded Man causing an eclipse.  And the Hooded Man is one of the gods of death of the House of Black and White (along with the Lion of Night, the great stone face, and the Stranger)  The Hooded Wayfarer is the wandering black moon.

Another way to say sgail is sgath, meaning "shadow, shade, veil, phantasm" and sgathan means "mirror" sgath also means "fright, fear, dread" and "consuming, destruction, waste, havoc" and "lopping, pruning"  and scail means "shadow, reflection, ghost, astral body"  scatha means "a swarm, a drove, a multitude, a crowd, a flock of birds"

sgaladh means "kettle, cauldron" and sgala means "ill-shaped hood, or tunic" sgalag means "slave"

(This is all from Dwelly's and Dinnean's gaelic dictionaries if anyone is interested.)

So a shadow planet which is called a cauldron because it is black (and metallic?) and also called a mirror and a hooded man due to a translation error, which is accompanied by fear, dread, havoc, and destruction and a drove of slaves (of undead, many of which are crows).  The moon is also difficult to see because it is black and does not reflect light--it is veiled.  The gods of death in Arya's chapter are only half-seen through the gloom.

 

I just got a hard copy of Dwelly's and luain/luan in addition to meaning "moon" and "doomsday/day of judgement" also luainich means "wanderer" and Maester Luwin was an astronomer who made shadow maps and was measuring shadows with the aid of a telescope.  A wandering doomsday moon, which is called the Shadow.  luan-lait is "the light that is supposed to issue from a champion's head in battle, hero's light"--that sounds like it could be describing the sun's corona during an eclipse--or the Night King's Crown.  luanchad means "eclipse of the moon"

 

I am still reading Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, and on page 727 of the third book, Maegwin is at Naglimund and she has taken a head injury and thinks she is in the afterlife, she thinks Naglimund is Scadach--hell, and it is "the Hole in Heaven" and "the Outer Darkness" though which "horrible corpse-white things and shaggy, monstrous ogres" came, she "had watched the gods and a few dead mortal heroes fight with them,  It was clear that the gods wished this wound in heaven's flesh healed so that no more evil could creep in."

"there was something oddly familiar about the thoughts of whatever lurked in Scadach, whatever godsbane burned so angrily in the deeps.  She felt strangely drawn, as to a darkly fascinating sibling: that horrid something . . . was much like her."

Scadach, a Hole in the Heavens, is Maegwin's dark sibling.  Galladon, the cauldron/kettle/black moon, is Brienne's dark sibling.

Also, in Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, Maegwin's people use an upside down cauldron as a bell that they ring to signal the call to arms at the beginning of a war--it is called Rhynn's Cauldron (rinn/reann means planet or star in gaelic).  And this might explain why bells signify death in ASOIAF, the cauldron is the black planet which is the god of death, and a cauldron is a bell.  (in addition to the "For Whom the Bell Tolls, it Tolls for Thee" stuff)

The maps in the World of Ice and Fire all have that little glyph in the shape of a bell, with a partially visible (eclipsed) black circle, and a goats horn (black goat?), and a symbolic depiction of a shadow.  I think this is the Maester's way of indicating that the Shadow Moon is visible from that location.

And finally, clogyn means "cloak or mantle" in Welsh.  And in gaelic, clogan means "bell" and cloigeann means "skull"  Sandor's horse is called the Stranger.   His brother is a Mountain that Rides, who in Bran's coma dream was a huge hollow stone giant--a floating hollow black moon perhaps.  In the World Book they describe the Bones Mountains as floating mountains:

Quote

The hills grow wilder and steeper, and soon enough the mountains appear in the far distance, their great peaks seeming to float against the eastern sky, blue-grey giants so huge and jagged and menacing that even Lomas Longstrider, that dauntless wanderer (if his tales be true), lost heart at the sight of them, believing that he had at last reached the ends of the earth.

The Shadow over Asshai is a huge floating mountain.

 

 

 

 

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