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Moiraine Sedai

The role of forgiveness

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On 24 December 2019 at 11:40 PM, kissdbyfire said:

What makes you think I care one fig whether you accept my opinion or not? :lol:

And I can tell you right now, a medal is not exactly what Marsh will get. 

I imagine that Melisandre has an appointment with a stake and a pile of logs in mind for Marsh.

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14 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I imagine that Melisandre has an appointment with a stake and a pile of logs in mind for Marsh.

Maybe, but she might not have time for that if Tormund & co reach him first. Either way, there'll be no forgiveness for Marsh from anyone currently at CB, let alone a medal! :D

 

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30 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Maybe, but she might not have time for that if Tormund & co reach him first. Either way, there'll be no forgiveness for Marsh from anyone currently at CB, let alone a medal! :D

 

It could a sort of free for all, fun for all event.  Tormund chops off a limb or two, before handing what's left to Mel.

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On 12/28/2019 at 10:36 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Maybe, but she might not have time for that if Tormund & co reach him first. Either way, there'll be no forgiveness for Marsh from anyone currently at CB, let alone a medal! :D

 

Well the Septon might be inclined to offer him forgiveness (if he hasn’t fallen back down his well :D )

 

(The well bit is just a joke based on the errata that resulted in Septon Chayle, who Theon drowns at Winterfell, emerging from the Castle Black sept in a Dance with Dragons)

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Mel is not going to have the resources to do anything to Bowen Marsh. Besides that, the men at the wall will support Marsh after Jon revealed his crimes at the shield hall.  Bowen did what needed to be done to stop Jon from doing any more harm to the Watch.

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Bowen will die a heroic death.  I think he knew that going in.  He was dedicated to his duties and loyal to a fault.  Jon put him in a bad position after the shield hall meeting.  Bowen will be a hero to the NW but an enemy to the wildlings.  

Arya's madness will make it hard for her to forget revenge.  Each person has a role and hers is to be the crazed killer.  

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On 12/19/2019 at 6:18 PM, President Andrew Yang said:

George is first and foremost an entertainer.  Forgiveness is the noble virtue but it isn't entertaining.  So the primary characters in the story are not taking the way of forgiveness.  He doesn't care about making them likable as long as they're entertaining.  Arya's atrocities and sickening madness is shocking to most and that is the intention of the writer.  A seemingly decent character that upon further digging into the backstory may turn out not so decent, like Ned.  Rhaegar might not be the hero that Daenerys and Viserys thinks he is.  C'mon, he should have sent Lyanna packing home if she went to him.  For whatever reason.  And if they were not involved, which is possible, that doesn't excuse his disrespectful behavior towards Princess Elia.  He was a husband and a farther, ffs.  A Walder point can easily make him sympathetic if George wants to play with his readers.  Don't count on forgiveness coming.  Well maybe Barristan, Samwell, Daenerys, Sansa, and Brienne can forgive.  Daenerys might do it just to make governing easier.  Sansa might forgive LF if it meant marrying a handsome young lord.  Samwell forgives his father.  It's possible fat boy forgives his old man.  But Arya?  No, I don't see that happening at all.  She's coming after Cersei and the Freys.  Griff is not going to forget what happened to his mother, sister, grandparents, and father.  It's even less likely if Arrianne starts whispering in his ear.  Jon might come back to some type of zombie and we can't expect him to be reasonable.  He wasn't right before he died and he won't be if he comes back.  Stannis is a hard man and he has burned more people than Aerys, that we know of.  That  one isn't about to show mercy. 

Sansa will trade away getting even for Ned if Petyr Baelish offers her a handsome groom in Ser Harrys.  That's the only forgiveness you'll get from a Stark.  Arya is too far deranged in the head to forgive.  

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On 12/17/2019 at 9:49 AM, Sigella said:

Thats your intrepetation. Mine is different; more like a learning curve than a false diconomy (rage/pity).

The men crucified had crucied children - anyone would agree that it is awful and needs to be severly punished. So she feels great condemning them (naturally) and then sick at what the punishment amounted to. So next time maybe she’ll avoid the whole ”eye for an eye” because this is how she learned.

The execution of the slave masters was justice.  They murdered and nailed those children to the crosses in order to intimidate Daenerys.  The act was a war strategy directed against her.  The execution of the slave masters was carried out for justice.  It's not perfect justice by the standards of modern times but it is good enough to be considered justice for the time and because it was during war time.  This is much, much less harsh than the justice Stannis served his own men for the crime of eating the dead to prevent starvation.  Who can say how long Stannis has been practicing his brand of justice.  His tally should have exceeded Aerys Targaryen's by now.  

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6 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Sansa will trade away getting even for Ned if Petyr Baelish offers her a handsome groom in Ser Harrys.  That's the only forgiveness you'll get from a Stark.  Arya is too far deranged in the head to forgive.  

The long faces are the ones who carry the most wolf blood.  Jon and Arya are not going to forgive.  Jon never did forgive the Lannisters and their allies in life and he is not about to when he comes back from death.

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2 hours ago, Victor Newman said:

The execution of the slave masters was justice.  They murdered and nailed those children to the crosses in order to intimidate Daenerys.  The act was a war strategy directed against her.  The execution of the slave masters was carried out for justice.  It's not perfect justice by the standards of modern times but it is good enough to be considered justice for the time and because it was during war time.  This is much, much less harsh than the justice Stannis served his own men for the crime of eating the dead to prevent starvation.  Who can say how long Stannis has been practicing his brand of justice.  His tally should have exceeded Aerys Targaryen's by now.  

I agree the men Stannis executed had nicer motives for their crimes than the slavers did for theirs, this on top of the victimology (innocent children vs. adult soldiers).

I don't agree with your implied notion of "all justice is good" however. Justice can be cruel, absurd and unjust; which asoiaf has many many examples of, named by other posters. I would add Tyrions containment/trial in the Eerie, King Robert's "justice" executing Lady, 

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On 12/20/2019 at 12:18 AM, President Andrew Yang said:

George is first and foremost an entertainer.  Forgiveness is the noble virtue but it isn't entertaining.  So the primary characters in the story are not taking the way of forgiveness.  He doesn't care about making them likable as long as they're entertaining.

Absolutely this. Our main POV's are neck deep in a dynastic war that is hundreds of years old and the author isn't known for writing storybook endings so it's not very likely to end in forgiveness.

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Arya forgave the Hound long enough to take him off her list, so there is some hope for her.  Being in the clutches of a death cult isn't helping her any, but if she can pry herself loose, she may do OK.

Jon forgave Janos Slynt long enough to appoint him to a position of importance and responsibility.  Then Slynt refused it in such a manner that Jon was left with little choice but to take severe action, although I think he would have preferred not to.

I don't see Daenerys as the forgiving type.  She still holds a grudge against the "usurpers dogs", and refused to forgive Jorah for his spying on her, despite the fact that he stopped doing so some time earlier and had given her good service since.

Stannis is definitely not the forgiving type.  He will hold a grudge forever, it seems.

It is also worth noting that readers and members of this forum seem to have a hard time forgiving characters as well.   Sansa and Catelyn are constantly excoriated for early mistakes, despite being generally decent people whose behavior improved in later books (Sansa especially).  Jon is another character that comes in for excessive bashing, as well.

I do think that characters are going to need to forgive if they are going to succeed in the future, and I think GRRM is going to set things up that way.

 

 

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Forgiveness and letting it go are two different things.  To forgive means to no longer hold it against the other person.  To allow a wrong to go unanswered is just to not act out revenge.  It doesn't matter for the purposes of cooperation whether there is actual forgiveness or there is not as long as the wronged party chooses to not get even.  Daenerys is one of the people most likely to avoid acting out a revenge for the sake of getting cooperation.  She does not like the slave masters but she is willing to work with them in order to bring peace to the city.  That is a positive action and one that shows the ability to prioritize for the greater good.  Jorah betrayed Daenerys and she chose to exile him rather than execute him.  That shows wisdom.  Jorah was given a chance to show remorse and he did not.  It was a wise choice to exile him instead of executing him.  There is no undoing an execution and it is final.  The sentence was punishment but tempered with appropriate mercy.  

Jon and Robb failed to understand the importance of priority.  Robb resented Karstark because he dared to disobey him.  Nevermind if Catelyn did the same thing and got off easily.  Robb took revenge under the cover of execution.  Jon did the same to Janos Slynt.  He used the excuse of execution to take revenge on Janos Slynt.  

Stannis punished his men for cannibalism.  It was too harsh but it is not revenge.  Just an inappropriate and out of the ordinary punishment.  The men got a bad deal.  They were starving because of a stupid decision from Stannis and got executed for eating rather than dying.  

Arya's arc is revenge.  She's riding the same revenge train as Cat and Jon are.  It will not lead to anything good.  

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On 1/5/2020 at 9:05 AM, Victor Newman said:

The long faces are the ones who carry the most wolf blood.  Jon and Arya are not going to forgive.  Jon never did forgive the Lannisters and their allies in life and he is not about to when he comes back from death.

Jon and Arya take after the likes of Brandon and Lyanna.  I would be surprised if they forgive.  Jon the Wight is not going to choose forgiveness.  He'll come back after having been resurrected by the white walkers and seek out revenge on the people who he feels have betrayed the Starks.  He's been an emotionally messed up, unbalanced guy from the beginning, then we got to see his darkness during Robert's reception dinner.  I would like to see Arya die first and then get Wighted Jon's reaction to that.  

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On 12/22/2019 at 5:42 PM, 867-5309 said:

Bran is cool-headed for a Stark.  Imagine the disaster if Arya had become the Greenseer. It would have been a bloodbath. The jury is out on Bran but he does seem the most reasonable of the wolves. 

Arya and Jon are the ill-tempered of the wolves. Rickon will also be just as savage. Bran could take a bad turn if he betrays Bloodraven and uses his powers against the Bolton's, Frey's, and Lannisters.  His infatuation with the frogeater and love for his siblings could tip him towards the dark.

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5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Arya and Jon are the ill-tempered of the wolves. Rickon will also be just as savage. Bran could take a bad turn if he betrays Bloodraven and uses his powers against the Bolton's, Frey's, and Lannisters.  His infatuation with the frogeater and love for his siblings could tip him towards the dark.

Ah the Star Wars in the plot.  Bran betrays his mentor because he wants to misuse his power.

7 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Jon and Arya take after the likes of Brandon and Lyanna.  I would be surprised if they forgive.  Jon the Wight is not going to choose forgiveness.  He'll come back after having been resurrected by the white walkers and seek out revenge on the people who he feels have betrayed the Starks.  He's been an emotionally messed up, unbalanced guy from the beginning, then we got to see his darkness during Robert's reception dinner.  I would like to see Arya die first and then get Wighted Jon's reaction to that.  

There is a premonition of Arya dying with her needle in hand.  Though Jon will die first, in my opinion, and it will be Arya who finally snaps what tiny amount of sanity she has left.  

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On 12/16/2019 at 11:07 PM, kissdbyfire said:

I'm sure Dany the Chosen One (like trump) will deal w it all diplomatically and perfectly, and we’ll end up with all characters sharing arbor gold around a nice lil bonfire. :wub: ETA: singing kumbaya

I find it easier, they being in the fire, that would please Dany more. But it's just a joke, for sure Dany will cooperate, after all it is a threat of apocalypse.

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On 1/5/2020 at 7:32 PM, Nevets said:

I don't see Daenerys as the forgiving type.  She still holds a grudge against the "usurpers dogs", and refused to forgive Jorah for his spying on her, despite the fact that he stopped doing so some time earlier and had given her good service since.

I think it will be easier for Dany to forgive than for anyone who has been to Westeros all this time, their case is much more recent, she still doesn't know which people she's dealing with, doesn't know her motivations, I don't see her having a relationship bad with the Starks kids for example, but people like Stannis and Jaime, she could just cooperate (you know, that cooperation where you're already preparing your dragon to eat them later)

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On 1/5/2020 at 9:05 AM, Victor Newman said:

The long faces are the ones who carry the most wolf blood.  Jon and Arya are not going to forgive.  Jon never did forgive the Lannisters and their allies in life and he is not about to when he comes back from death.

They will live for a time.  Whether human or wight, Jon and Arya will start a reign of terror in the north.  This reign of ice will last until the weather turns warm and the refugees can return from Essos.  

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On 1/5/2020 at 8:29 AM, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Sansa will trade away getting even for Ned if Petyr Baelish offers her a handsome groom in Ser Harrys.  That's the only forgiveness you'll get from a Stark.  Arya is too far deranged in the head to forgive.  

I don't think you have a good grasp of Sansa if you truly believe that. She doesn't like Harry the Heir and yet still she is willing to marry him if that means she can get justice for her family. 

You also have an unkind view of Arya. She isn't deranged in the head like you believe. Just a traumatized child and things would be better for her if she's among her siblings who would anchor her. 

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