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Moiraine Sedai

The role of forgiveness

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1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

I don't think you have a good grasp of Sansa if you truly believe that. She doesn't like Harry the Heir and yet still she is willing to marry him if that means she can get justice for her family. 

You also have an unkind view of Arya. She isn't deranged in the head like you believe. Just a traumatized child and things would be better for her if she's among her siblings who would anchor her. 

It's you who doesn't understand Sansa.  She is selfish enough to forget about her family if it will bring her a high lord for a husband.  And about Arya.  She is sick in the head and being around her siblings is not gonna make her well.  They're not exactly well themselves in that department. 

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5 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@300 H&H Magnum Then be so kind and give me the citation that proves Sansa would ever do such thing. 

You sound like you've not read the books.  Did she not do just that when she took Joffrey's side over Arya and it ended up with her wolf getting the knife?  That is exactly what happened. 

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Being selfish is the nature of Sansa.  We've been witness to it time and time again.  It is what made her run to Cersei and confessed her father's plans to leave the city.  She intended for Cersei to force her family to stay so she can be near Joffrey and the excitement of King's Landing.  She didn't want to go back to the frozen wasteland that is her family home.

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On 1/5/2020 at 12:22 PM, Sigella said:

Absolutely this. Our main POV's are neck deep in a dynastic war that is hundreds of years old and the author isn't known for writing storybook endings so it's not very likely to end in forgiveness.

I will have to second (or third or fourth) this.  These families have a long history of bad blood and proudly spouting phrases like "the north remembers" does not bode well for forgiveness.

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4 minutes ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

You sound like you've not read the books.  Did she not do just that when she took Joffrey's side over Arya and it ended up with her wolf getting the knife?  That is exactly what happened. 

 

Just now, Dothraki Khal said:

Being selfish is the nature of Sansa.  We've been witness to it time and time again.  It is what made her run to Cersei and confessed her father's plans to leave the city.  She intended for Cersei to force her family to stay so she can be near Joffrey and the excitement of King's Landing.  She didn't want to go back to the frozen wasteland that is her family home.

You guys seem to be forgetting that that was four books and two years of story time ago.  Sansa is practically a different person now; one with a lot more life experience and consequently much wiser than she was.

As for marrying Harry the Heir,she seems distinctly unenthusiastic about the possibility of marriage, and is only approaching Harry to keep Littlefinger happy.

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1 minute ago, Dothraki Khal said:

Being selfish is the nature of Sansa.  We've been witness to it time and time again.  It is what made her run to Cersei and confessed her father's plans to leave the city.  She intended for Cersei to force her family to stay so she can be near Joffrey and the excitement of King's Landing.  She didn't want to go back to the frozen wasteland that is her family home.

I'd say I trust your opinion, but than you are not really trustworthy Imperator, even when you disguise yourself as Dothraki Khal, who wouldn't be trustworthy either- just when it comes to morals :) same goes for um... a pen

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Just now, Nagini's Neville said:

I'd say I trust your opinion, but than you are not really trustworthy Imperator, even when you disguise yourself as Dothraki Khal, who wouldn't be trustworthy either- just when it comes to morals :) same goes for um... a pen

Are we getting personal?  

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@300 H&H Magnum I have read them and Sansa's chapters even moreso. That's why I don't think you pay enough attention when you read her chapters. Sansa didn't pick Joffrey's side she chose to be neutral. She made that decision while thinking that she would marry Joffrey. She would be legally and socially owned by him and Sansa already got a taste of his anger. She was afraid of what he might do to her. Surely you can have a little compassion to understand why Sansa would be hesitant to say he's lying even if it was the truth. The fact that Sansa chose to stay neutral and possibly anger Joffrey shows to me how much she wanted to stay loyal to her family without putting herself in harm's way. 

Edited by Elegant Woes

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6 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@300 H&H Magnum I have read them and Sansa's chapters even moreso. That's why I don't think you pay enough attention when you read her chapters. Sansa didn't pick Joffrey's side she chose to be neutral. She made that decision while thinking that she would marry Joffrey. She would be legally and socially owned by him and Sansa already got a taste of his anger. She was afraid of what he might do to her. Surely you can have a little compassion to understand why Sansa would be hesitant to say he's lying even if it was the truth. The fact that Sansa chose to stay neutral and possibly anger Joffrey shows to me how much she wanted to stay loyal to her family without putting herself in harm's way. 

I don't agree with your interpretation.  Seems to me, you're spinning what took place into what you want to see.  Which is fine.  It's your right.  Mine own interpretation is not the same as yours.  Mine is more direct based on that chapter.

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13 minutes ago, Dothraki Khal said:

proudly spouting phrases like "the north remembers" does not bode well for forgiveness.

Whereas “FIRE AND BLOOD” speak of flowery meadows w/ bunny rabbits prancing around and pretty butterflies flying from one flower to the next. :lol:

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@Dothraki Khal When Sansa went to Cersei to confess she never saw it like choosing the Lannisters over the Starks. It was just a child being disobedient for the first time just to get what she wants. A wrong and reckless move, but hardly a betrayal as you seem to believe it was. In fact when Sansa does get the idea that her father and family might be in danger, it happens in the same chapter, Sansa undoubtedly chooses to side with the Starks even when four adults try to manipulate her into believing her father committed treason. Now that's what I call loyalty to family. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Dothraki Khal said:

Sansa sided with Joff because she wanted to be his queen.  It wasn't out of any moral motivation.  

she would be his queen whether she wanted or not- was outside of her control

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If you look at it from the modern lense it's easy to assume Sansa being selfish. However Sansa isn't your typical teenager. She's a highborn woman who's duty comprises of marrying well, obeying her husband, and giving him children primarily sons. If Sansa was truly the selfish little twat that you guys seem to believe then why didn't she completely side with Joffrey? Why didn't she really threw her little sister in front of the bus and say Arya and her butcher's boy attacked the crown prince. Explain to me why Sansa didn't do that? 

Edited by Elegant Woes

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Selfish is selfish. Time period is not what determine that.  It wasn't the disobedience but the intent behind it that proves her selfish trait.

16 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

If you look at it from the modern lense it's easy to assume Sansa being selfish. However Sansa isn't your typical teenager. She's a highborn woman who's duty comprises of marrying well, obeying her husband, and giving him children primarily sons. If Sansa was truly the selfish little twat that you guys seem to believe then why didn't she completely side with Joffrey? Why didn't she really threw her little sister in front of the bus and say Arya and her butcher's boy attacked the crown prince. Explain to me why Sansa didn't do that? 

 

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9 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

If you look at it from the modern lense it's easy to assume Sansa being selfish. However Sansa isn't your typical teenager. She's a highborn woman who's duty comprises of marrying well, obeying her husband, and giving him children primarily sons. If Sansa was truly the selfish little twat that you guys seem to believe then why didn't she completely side with Joffrey? Why didn't she really threw her little sister in front of the bus and say Arya and her butcher's boy attacked the crown prince. Explain to me why Sansa didn't do that? 

For a small and vocal portion of posters Sansa committed the ultimate crime: she was born a Stark. So, don’t expect logic, or a comprehensive take on the character, and don’t even dream about book quotes. 

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@kissdbyfire You are right. It's just weird. I mean this book series is full with grey and multifaceted characters, surely they should accept Sansa is one. Sometimes she isn't nice and makes morally grey choices and that can be okay. :dunno:

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