Why is Sansa so antagonistic towards Daenerys?

[Mystical]

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

Didn't Sandor have a vision of the WW crossing a frozen sea?

Jon also made clear that he didn't need Dany's permission to go North. Though, she could have detained him.

TBH, the stupid Wight hunt was when the show jumped the shark for me.

Nope, the Hound said he sees a castle by the see (Eastwatch) and the dead are marching in it's direction.

Jon did in fact need Dany's permission as she had seized his only means of leaving Dragonstone, the boat he came on. She had already detained him when she took away his boat and weapons and put him under house arrest.

The show had jumped the shark way before the Wight hunt.

[BlackLightning]

Show Sansa was a placeholder for Arianne Martell.

I don't foresee the real Sansa having this much of a problem with Daenerys at first (or even second) blush.

[Rose of Red Lake]

15 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Show Sansa was a placeholder for Arianne Martell.

I don't foresee the real Sansa having this much of a problem with Daenerys at first (or even second) blush.

Sansa would be an idiot all over again, setting her storyline back to zero, for trusting someone who would put her whole family at risk, like Jon did. She's not making a mistake like that again.

[BlackLightning]

10 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Sansa would be an idiot all over again, setting her storyline back to zero, for trusting someone who would put her whole family at risk, like Jon did. She's not making a mistake like that again.

I'm not saying Sansa won't have a problem with Daenerys. I think she will.

But she's not going to have this massive, intractable problem with Daenerys before even meeting her just based upon news from far-flung places and not-so-reliable sources.

Part of Sansa's story arc is how appearances and first impressions are misleading and that words are wind. She's already learned not to get carried away and feel any particular way about someone before or upon first meeting them. Remember Joffrey and Cersei? And the Hound?

If and when she has a gripe against Daenerys, it'll be after Sansa has had time to personally observe her and it'll be based on something legitimate enough. Like, for example, if Daenerys becomes R'hllor's #1 fan and a figurehead of a crusade against the old gods that likes to burn weirwoods, then Sansa is going to have a issue with that. Or if Tyrion starts threatening Sansa while hiding behind Daenerys' skirts, then Sansa is going to feel very threatened by Daenerys as well as Tyrion.

It won't be about how much prettier Daenerys is than her, about how or about how her position/power is threatened.

[Rose of Red Lake]

17 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I'm not saying Sansa won't have a problem with Daenerys. I think she will.

But she's not going to have this massive, intractable problem with Daenerys before even meeting her just based upon news from far-flung places and not-so-reliable sources.

Part of Sansa's story arc is how appearances and first impressions are misleading and that words are wind. She's already learned not to get carried away and feel any particular way about someone before or upon first meeting them. Remember Joffrey and Cersei? And the Hound?

If and when she has a gripe against Daenerys, it'll be after Sansa has had time to personally observe her and it'll be based on something legitimate enough. Like, for example, if Daenerys becomes R'hllor's #1 fan and a figurehead of a crusade against the old gods that likes to burn weirwoods, then Sansa is going to have a issue with that. Or if Tyrion starts threatening Sansa while hiding behind Daenerys' skirts, then Sansa is going to feel very threatened by Daenerys as well as Tyrion.

It won't be about how much prettier Daenerys is than her, about how or about how her position/power is threatened.

Mostly agree with this, but I think Sansa had a problem with Daenerys in the show from the start because her position/power was threatened by having a stranger queen as overlord with no explanation from Jon, and Jon had been missing for months, when she knew the history of her family going off to meet Targaryens. So from Sansa's POV it looks like Dany coerced him. Sansa being a skeptic of everyone from the start shows growth, but I also think she was able to size up Dany as an awful person within 2 seconds. I really didn't have a big problem with Sansa's pushback. Would I have liked her to use more subtle courtesy to throw shade at Dany like she did at Joffrey? Sure, but as a huge Sansa fan I wasnt upset by this.

[Mystical]

17 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But she's not going to have this massive, intractable problem with Daenerys before even meeting her just based upon news from far-flung places and not-so-reliable sources.

I don't understand what the problem is. Sansa and the North want to be independent. Dany wants all of the 7K, including the North. They literally have opposing, political goals. Also it's fair to assume that Jon didn't bend the knee nilly willy (because that would be a level of stupid few can comprehend and therefore wouldn't even think possible) but was under some form of threat and by extension the North also. Which wouldn't be hard to assume considering the North voted for a King to be independent and Dany has a giant army not to mention dragons. It's the simplest math really.

[Rose of Red Lake]

10 hours ago, Mystical said:

Also it's fair to assume that Jon didn't bend the knee nilly willy (because that would be a level of stupid few can comprehend and therefore wouldn't even think possible) but was under some form of threat and by extension the North also. 

I don't know man...Jon on the show was written like a single-celled organism. An amoeba has more intelligence. I honestly find "Jon gave Dany the North because he lurves her so much and is blinded by her dragon tits" less offensive than "He never wanted to be king, and knows that Dany would be a better ruler for the North" because it pretty much ignores the existence of Sansa, Arya and Bran, and his own siblings' right to decide who they want to kneel to, let alone who rules over them. If it's both, he's in even more trouble and I'm being too generous with that brain cell. 

[Cas Stark]

On 1/10/2020 at 9:02 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Mostly agree with this, but I think Sansa had a problem with Daenerys in the show from the start because her position/power was threatened by having a stranger queen as overlord with no explanation from Jon, and Jon had been missing for months, when she knew the history of her family going off to meet Targaryens. So from Sansa's POV it looks like Dany coerced him. Sansa being a skeptic of everyone from the start shows growth, but I also think she was able to size up Dany as an awful person within 2 seconds. I really didn't have a big problem with Sansa's pushback. Would I have liked her to use more subtle courtesy to throw shade at Dany like she did at Joffrey? Sure, but as a huge Sansa fan I wasnt upset by this.

It was right up there in terms of unbelievable characterization with season 5 Sansa, who doesn't know she's going North on the King's Road, marries Ramsay with zero plan for 'revenge' and then proceeds to veer from aggressive to passive and back again and unable to find a single friend outside of an old washer woman, LOL.  No Sansa, not book Sana, not show Sansa would have behaved in such an obvious, obnoxious and rude way as her character did in season 8 with regard to Dany.  It was not only out of character, but counter productive to what her character would have wanted, because antagonizing your brother the King's main squeeze, who has dragons and an army, allegedly needed to fight the WW, is stupid.  Of course, no one knew it only took a ninja in the garden to end the whole threat......

[Rose of Red Lake]

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

It was not only out of character, 

How so? Sansa isn't trusting anyone who isnt her family, that's in character for her character's growth. The last time she trusted a queen over her family, her father ended up dead. Jon never learned this lesson, apparently.

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

not show Sansa would have behaved in such an obvious, obnoxious and rude way as her character did in season 8 with regard to Dany. 

Well sure, she could have thrown shade in a more subtle way. Or killed her with kindness, since sweet things to Dany always represent something negative in the books. Do you want her to be indifferent to a person who wants to have authority over her again? 

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

counter productive to what her character would have wanted, because antagonizing your brother the King's main squeeze, who has dragons and an army, allegedly needed to fight the WW, is stupid.  Of course, no one knew it only took a ninja in the garden to end the whole threat......

And what does her character want? 

[Cas Stark]

1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

How so? Sansa isn't trusting anyone who isnt her family, that's in character for her character's growth. The last time she trusted a queen over her family, her father ended up dead. Jon never learned this lesson, apparently.

Well sure, she could have thrown shade in a more subtle way. Or killed her with kindness, since sweet things to Dany always represent something negative in the books. Do you want her to be indifferent to a person who wants to have authority over her again? 

And what does her character want? 

I want her to act like Sansa, and that means using the trappings of court and protocol as her armor. It means being subtle, not talking smack in public.

She wants to protect the North and her family, not best done through open antagonism to the khaleesi

[Rose of Red Lake]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I want her to act like Sansa, and that means using the trappings of court and protocol as her armor. It means being subtle, not talking smack in public.

She wants to protect the North and her family, not best done through open antagonism to the khaleesi

That doesnt really fly in the North, they appreciate bluntness. Sansa being more bold is fine by me. Looks like it worked out pretty well for her. Sansa showed enough courtesy while still letting Dany know who runs WF, Dany just didnt get her ass licked as usual. Sure, they could have been written more like the Margaery/Cersei scenes, but Dany would still be antagonized because she's just that sensitive to slights.

[Cas Stark]

10 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

That doesnt really fly in the North, they appreciate bluntness. Sansa being more bold is fine by me. Looks like it worked out pretty well for her. Sansa showed enough courtesy while still letting Dany know who runs WF, Dany just didnt get her ass licked as usual. Sure, they could have been written more like the Margaery/Cersei scenes, but Dany would still be antagonized because she's just that sensitive to slights.

Bluntness but not stupidity.  She disrespected her brother, the king, multiple times in public and disrespected Dany, a queen, whose help she needed, multiple times in public, to no benefit to anyone except the showrunners who think that rudeness is badass.  But then the show's depiction of Sansa went off the rails in season 5 and never recovered, IMO.  It is doubtful that Sansa and Dany would ever meet in the books, but her book self would certainly never behave so immaturely as her TV self did the last several seasons.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Just now, Cas Stark said:

Bluntness but not stupidity.  She disrespected her brother, the king, multiple times in public and disrespected Dany, a queen, whose help she needed, multiple times in public, to no benefit to anyone except the showrunners who think that rudeness is badass.  But then the show's depiction of Sansa went off the rails in season 5 and never recovered, IMO.  It is doubtful that Sansa and Dany would ever meet in the books, but her book self would certainly never behave so immaturely as her TV self did the last several seasons.

Sansa showed Dany enough courtesy while still making her concerns known. If anything Dany needed more pushback and questioning, it's good for a ruler to have that. Dany acted like she was in charge of a place she's never seen before (colonial entitlement). I didn't expect Sansa to fawn over her and braid her hair like they're BFFs. Actually before S8 I thought Sansa would be even more antagonistic with Dany, to the point where Dany would directly threaten her with her dragons but would serve for Jon to wake up and realize what an awful person she is sooner. Maybe fewer people would have died because of that. 

[BlackLightning]

@Rose of Red Lake @Mystical

Sansa didn't size Daenerys up as an awful person. IF she did size Dany up as an awful person, she would've said so to Jon or to Brienne like she did with Littlefinger. IF she did size Dany up as an awful person, she would've had a couple things to say to Theon or Tyrion.

But she didn't. She never did. Not even to Tyrion.

How can she size Daenerys up as a terrible person when she was the one who was terrified of her own siblings and seriously considered having her own sister killed a few weeks before?

No, it wasn't about Sansa getting an accurate read on Daenerys the moment she met her (or rather, heard her name). It was about Sansa simply not liking Daenerys out of jealousy.

[Mystical]

4 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

@Rose of Red Lake @Mystical

Sansa didn't size Daenerys up as an awful person. IF she did size Dany up as an awful person, she would've said so to Jon or to Brienne like she did with Littlefinger. IF she did size Dany up as an awful person, she would've had a couple things to say to Theon or Tyrion.

But she didn't. She never did. Not even to Tyrion.

How can she size Daenerys up as a terrible person when she was the one who was terrified of her own siblings and seriously considered having her own sister killed a few weeks before?

No, it wasn't about Sansa getting an accurate read on Daenerys the moment she met her (or rather, heard her name). It was about Sansa simply not liking Daenerys out of jealousy.

That has literally nothing to do with what I wrote. My entire post was about opposing political goals.

And also that from the outside, the picture doesn't look so pretty. I mean Jon didn't write for months (easy to assume Dany forbid him to), went on a dangerous mission (possibly under threat) and gave up his crown and the entire kingdom with it (again easy to assume via threat).

Of course Jon, Mister Non-Communication Extraordinaire, could have cleared all this up and done Dany a PR favor in the process. But alas he let everyone think whatever they wanted as long as he still looked good (aside from the whole giving the kingdom away).

[Rose of Red Lake]

Sansa gained more fans in the show than she ever did in the books, that's really all that matters to me. Would I have liked to have seen Sansa use fake courtesy and make clever ripostes at Dany and Ramsay all day long, sure, but the show grew her fanbase as a character, and for that I'm grateful. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Because after the backlash D&D faced for having Sansa marry Ramsay, they wanted to prove that they weren't sexists by making Sansa the "most clever" character (ex. Arya telling Jon that Sansa is the "smartest person she's ever met"). So in order to telegraph the Dany-was-mad-all-along thing, they wrote Sansa to be immediately suspicious of her, that way at the end of the season, the audience could go, "Oh, Sansa was right the whole time!"

Basically they wanted to convey that Sansa was smarter than everyone else, so she was able to tell that Daenerys was a maniac before anyone else could. Like with so much else on this show, however, it didn't really work out the way the showrunners planned.