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UK Politics: And Brexit came swirling down

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The Tories now have a majority to continue their great scheme of humiliating and diminishing our country further. Please carry on. 

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It is interesting that 3 out of 4 major parties in the UK have had female leaders, but none of those 3 is Labour.

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Reading up on Labour leaders, Starmer looks strong on paper - knight, former DPP (so he can refute the predictable Labour being soft on law and order attacks) and his lack of parliamentary experience probably helps him overall. But I think the vast majority of new Labour members are Corbynites and Starmer will be viewed as too moderate and too establishment.

That being said with potentially five years to go until the next election there is no guarantee that the next Labour leader is going to contest the next election. Five years is an age in politics.

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Having browsed through the last thread, I was struck, as I frequently am when browsing the political threads on this forum, on how one-sided the discussion is.    I am curious as to why this would be.  This is a forum in theory open to any poster who has a taste or interest in medieval-themed fantasy.   Why would the opinions of the posters on this forum be so radically unrepresentative of people who actually vote?

I can think of a number of possible answers, but I don't want to speculate.  I'm just interested in such thoughts as the regulars here might have.

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28 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Having browsed through the last thread, I was struck, as I frequently am when browsing the political threads on this forum, on how one-sided the discussion is.    I am curious as to why this would be.  This is a forum in theory open to any poster who has a taste or interest in medieval-themed fantasy.   Why would the opinions of the posters on this forum be so radically unrepresentative of people who actually vote?

I can think of a number of possible answers, but I don't want to speculate.  I'm just interested in such thoughts as the regulars here might have.

As the resident conservative (and probably only one) in the Aussies thread I've often wondered this.

1. I suspect the board population has an age bias, skewing towards younger people. We know that older voters are heavily more conservative. The need for some technological engagement (combined with the sci-fi fantasy thing) probably means that the proportion of people 55-60+ years and over is quite small on this board compared to the overall population. That's a significant chunk of the voting population that is missing.

2. I think your average conservative voter just wants to be left alone whereas your average left-wing voter has to agitate for change, so there is a tendency for the left to be more vocal on message boards like this. Yes, I know there are far right-wing activists out there that yell loudly too, but by definition the average conservative is generally satisfied with the status quo (or only wants incremental change) so feels less of a need for political engagement than a progressive. Hence fewer conservatives cropping up on message boards like this.

I think reason (1) is probably more solid than (2). Scifi/fantasy has become more mainstream but perhaps there's a bit of selection bias in there too.

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55 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Having browsed through the last thread, I was struck, as I frequently am when browsing the political threads on this forum, on how one-sided the discussion is.    I am curious as to why this would be.  This is a forum in theory open to any poster who has a taste or interest in medieval-themed fantasy.   Why would the opinions of the posters on this forum be so radically unrepresentative of people who actually vote?

I can think of a number of possible answers, but I don't want to speculate.  I'm just interested in such thoughts as the regulars here might have.

An observation I’ve often raised. This is an extreme left wing environment, in general, where centrists are tolerated but disapproved of, and anyone of a right leaning persuasion is seen as downright evil. Someone as far right on the spectrum as the majority here are to the left would probably be seen as the devil himself.

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44 minutes ago, Altherion said:

In those early years, there was a far greater diversity of political opinions here, but as time went on, most right-wing posters left the board or, in some cases, moved to the left.

I was around in the ezboard days, which I think was back in 2001, and it could be that I was less aware of it back then (as a teenager, where self-awareness in general is fairly low and I was no exception) than I am now in my mid-30s, but it did seem more diverse.

Quite possibly because it was a much smaller community and because back then it was still more focused on the books, that also gave a bit more camaraderie to the group such that political disagreements were less explosive. When a large amount of posts were still concentrated on book re-reads and theories, a poster's political persuasions were viewed more as an oddity rather than a defining characteristic.

I think the combination of general age bias (see my previous post) and @Altherion's feedback loop are probably related, making the particular political mix here even more potent.

Edited by Jeor

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2 hours ago, Jeor said:

As the resident conservative (and probably only one) in the Aussies thread I've often wondered this.

Excuse me? 

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

An observation I’ve often raised. This is an extreme left wing environment, in general, where centrists are tolerated but disapproved of, and anyone of a right leaning persuasion is seen as downright evil. Someone as far right on the spectrum as the majority here are to the left would probably be seen as the devil himself.

"The devil himself" is unlikely. While some religions are tolerated, belief in that kinda stuff is pretty absent here. In the last thread you were called a white supremacist but any -ist is pretty standard (if Goodwins law isn't invoked). And that kind of signaling is lauded to help generate the clique.

Back to the topic. A good result for democracy. Good to see Brexit finally back on track. If only the vocal minority would listen to the people rather than their own press.

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19 minutes ago, Squab said:

Excuse me? 

Hah! Alright, I do get company from time to time. ;)

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4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Case in point.

Ironically, I am not nearly as far to the right as you lot are to the left. You’re a bunch of radicals, let’s be honest. I’m just a supporter of traditional values.

Let’s be honest, labeling one’s self a ”supporter of traditional values” has been used as an excuse by bigots throughout history, from those who fought for Jim Crow-they too agreed with your philosophy like should stay with like, black should stay with black, white should stay with white-to those who didn't desire woman to vote. 

You pretend to be perplexed as to why people from gays-to Catholics might be offended at being told they deserve to be tortured.

You moaned that a rugby player who was fired for being a bigot had his rights violated because he was simply expressing his religious belief that all these people deserve to be tortured. Which Kinda undermines your stances of ”like should stay with like” and ”you should endeavor to not be a minority.” given if the guy wanted to play rugby and be a bigot he should just go out and find an organization that has management and other players who share his values—based on your “like should stay with like” philosophy.

You’ve called Christians who would lock up gays for being gay and deny religions who who don't worship their God as merely being true Christians.

I get the impression that what you’d consider extreme (possibly) would be only to straight kill people who’d engage in same-sex activity, or kill people who don’t worship the Judeo-Christian version of god. 

But if there’s one instance that really highlights your extremity it’s you’re taking Indian indentured servants(which let’s be clear here were mostly in practice slaves), being transported to Fiji as proof of the ills of immigration. Indian-Fijians were no more immigrants who chose to come to the islands than African-slaves who were shipped to America. And they(Indian-Fijians)  were systematically oppressed by the native Fijians for decades after British colonialIsm ended. You literally might as well have used the fact there were slave states that had African populations that dwarfed the white population to make your point.  

To be clear I’m not calling all conservatives hardcore bigots. I’m calling you one. 

2 hours ago, Jeor said:

I was around in the ezboard days, which I think was back in 2001, and it could be that I was less aware of it back then (as a teenager, where self-awareness in general is fairly low and I was no exception) than I am now in my mid-30s, but it did seem more diverse. Quite possibly because it was a much smaller community and because back then it was still more focused on the books, that also gave a bit more camaraderie to the group such that political disagreements were less explosive.

I think the combination of general age bias (see my previous post) and @Altherion's feedback loop are probably related, making the particular political mix here even more potent.

I came relatively late in the General section, but I never really thought it odd to see so many people eschew to the left in the politics thread You know since the main book series features, a ”progressive”  taking on the far ”conservative”factions and makes massive implications about him being the messiah. 

I took no ponderance of it and took no more thought of it being popular consensus on topic than any other internet thread found anywhere. Like Reddit or 4chan is more popular than this entire website. But, I wouldn’t expect anyone to seriously take the majority of opinions expressed there to be something that should be representative of the general public. 

There are plenty of polls, and data and elections to showcase just how popular or unpopular x position is.   

1 hour ago, Squab said:

Excuse me? 

"The devil himself" is unlikely. While some religions are tolerated, belief in that kinda stuff is pretty absent here. In the last thread you were called a white supremacist but any -ist is pretty standard (if Goodwins law isn't invoked). And that kind of signaling is lauded to help generate the clique.

Back to the topic. A good result for democracy. Good to see Brexit finally back on track. If only the vocal minority would listen to the people rather than their own press.

Meh. I don’t think it’d be good for Democracy to have an executive branch far less constrained by parliament or the courts. Like, Brexit aside, the PM shouldn’t be able to just shut down parliament if they don’t move the direction he wants.

If you think Brexit should happen because of the referendum, cool man I understand that, I still see the thing as something doomed to disappoint the people who voted for it, but hey they did vote for it.

But I can’t see Johnson getting in such a comfortable position in power given his flagrant hostility towards the checks for the executive branch as a good thing for democracy. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Ah, the whining of the right.  @Altherion and @Free Northman Reborn, you've just been de-platformed and triggered to a turrible degree.  It's quite a struggle, isn't it?  If you want to ever stop whining and engage substantively I, and I'm sure many others, are all ears on your ingenious reasons why the right isn't running the entire western world into the ground like 70s Dubya or Ted Kennedy on a bender.  Look forward to your well-founded arguments, because that's what the two of you are all about.

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[mod] I think we need to return to the topic, which in case people need reminding is UK Politics. The topic is not, and never should be, individual boarders. Thanks. [/mod]

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19 minutes ago, mormont said:

[mod] I think we need to return to the topic, which in case people need reminding is UK Politics. The topic is not, and never should be, individual boarders. Thanks. [/mod]

Apologies. I feel my last post may have stepped over the line. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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Quote

I think this is both missing my point and begging the question. 

 

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Is Cooper without any chacne whatsoever to take over as Labour leader?

She is one of the very few people that came out of this Brexit mess with her reputation and dignity intact - Starmer has been too close to Corbyn for most of the way. She has proven her ability from the backbenches (Cooper-Grieve amendment), And she has a broader appeal.

I know the Corbynista Momentum, who have gifted UK politics with Corbyn (and by extension this Johnson GE victory) want Long-Bailey to take over, but surely there must be some sort of self-correction mechanism in place, that makes them take a step back. Their messias produced Labour's worst post war election result afterall.

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7 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

I know the Corbynista Momentum, who have gifted UK politics with Corbyn (and by extension this Johnson GE victory) want Long-Bailey to take over, but surely there must be some sort of self-correction mechanism in place, that makes them take a step back. Their messias produced Labour's worst post war election result afterall.

The Labor leadership is still elected by general party members though, right? (after the shortlist is culled by the MPs)

From memory, Corbyn had an extremely strong base from the general membership, though lukewarm support from his own caucus members. But presumably all those new Labor members who signed up to vote for Corbyn are still there, so Long-Bailey might still have a chance. Corbyn's anointing a successor will probably still have a lot of sway with those members who might want to double down.

 

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5 hours ago, Squab said:

Back to the topic. A good result for democracy. Good to see Brexit finally back on track. If only the vocal minority would listen to the people rather than their own press.

I find this habit of conservatives calling themselves "the people" a bit baffling.

Brexit was voted by 51,9% with a high proportion of remainers abstaining. Even the recent smashing Conservative victory in the UK was obtained with 43,6% of the vote. Let's not even begin to look at other countries...
The idea that 17,4 million people should ignore the will of 16,1 million is not just ridiculous, it's also dangerous.

Basically these are no "good results" for democracy because populations are actually very close to a 50-50 split which, in an age of increased polarization, leads to many political crises. The smaller the victory margins and the less legitimacy the overall system has.

Quite frankly, anyone saying they are "the people" after an electoral victory is just a godamn troll.

And to be clear, this is a struggle for leftists as well. Had Corbyn won (in an alternate universe) his legitimacy would no doubt have been even weaker than BoJo's... I happen to believe that socialism is by definition democratic, which means I tend to believe that socialists need crushing electoral victories to have a clear democratic mandate to transform society...

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