UK Politics: And Brexit came swirling down

[Jen'ari]

7 hours ago, mormont said:

There really isn't much to discuss right now. There's been no debate worthy of the name in Parliament. Johnson is proving that everything we said here during the campaign is correct, but there's no way to stop Brexit now so all anyone can do is buckle up and hope like hell.

Negotiations will start on the long-term deal after that, and that will provide plenty to discuss.

This is kind of how I feel, just resigned to it now, all I’m hoping for is that we get a decent deal and the country and economy doesn’t suffer too much, I genuinely do hope the government achieves this but like you,won’t be holding my breath.

[JoannaL]

@ heartofIce

"I think the coin, and bonging for Brexit is all a bit crass and I don't think it's all that appropriate, it would probably just wind a lot of people up. Having said that, I have no problem with what's written on the coin. "

I believe you, that you have no problem with "peace, prosperity and friendship with all nations", Who would? But it is not appropriate to put it on the Brexit coin, because that was clearly not a Brexit goal. As far as I understand the brexit debate, Brexit is about immigration and "taking back control". If these were the main goals, the goals worth fighting for, why not put them on the coin? Instead there are now ideas on it which were really not the topics the brexiteers were fighting for (instead they were throwing "peace" "friends" and "prosperity"  under the bus for their more important goals ) Why not now that you have won immigration control (though first results show, that it is only European immigration which is decreasing not the total amount) and " taken back control" (though that is an illusion because whenever you have connections with other nations like trade deals, you have a non-national rule set and non-national judges, so the moment you trade with WTO rules - well, you have WTO rules and not English ones) why not put these things on the coin if these are the things you won? It is hypocritical to now go on about peace and friendship, because these were  clearly not the Brexit goals.

The EU is a peace project, I know the view in the UK on this (even by remainers) is different from the continental one. The UK always saw the EU as a trade project. I think the last 3 years proves that peace is at the heart of the European project. All this hate and misunderstandings  (inside your own nation, between the different parts of the UK (Scotland, NI... ) and between the UK and the rest of Europe) were caused by this, in my opinion, not-well-thought-out  idea to "take back control". To foster understanding and peace between nations you not only need treaties like the NATO (though they are very useful), but also the meeting and bringing together of people of different national backgrounds. No borders, students exchanges, international festivals, languages exchanges, removal of trade barriers and so on help to see the "other" as not so "other" but as a friend, a friend you do not want to shoot at in a war. that this is not a trivial point may be seen in the fact how easyly and quickly part of the British press (and last summer also main British politicians) reverted to war rhetoric the moment they lost European ideals. "Collaborators", "Dead in a Ditch" , the "other" was back to being a faceless enemy (and no, there was no comparable rhetoric on the European side) . I really hope for us all that now that Brexit is done things will cool down.

" A more realistic point of view would be to say that the EU doesn't want a trade deal with  Britain, because it's not to it's advantage. What the EU wants is for Britain to follow all rules and regulations of the EU and to not do very well. Britain would quite like a trade deal with the EU, just like other countries have with the EU. They just don't want to have to pass off all their sovereign powers to the EU in order to get it. "

Here you have lost me completely. Certainly the EU wants to trade with the UK. Certainly they want to do this on good terms. Certainly they want the UK to do well, because that means more business. No one in Europe is interested in getting the "sovereign powers"of the UK. But for any international treaty you need to follow international NOT national rules. I think that is absolutely self-explaining? Also the EU will protect the single market (the UK can be part of it or not part of it, but they may not destroy it by getting all the advantages and not following its rules)

[mormont]

3 hours ago, Liffguard said:

Similar to what I've been thinking. The "good" guys have "won." Their prize is they have to deliver the most complex trade deal in British history, in eleven months.

It's more like six, in terms of actual time to negotiate.

[kiko]

3 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

There's talk in the various remain/rejoin areas of the internet that when we get one of those coins, we simply put it in a piggy bank, and take them out of circulation - or try to find a way of defacing them for the same reason.

We had a coin with Franz Josef Strauß on it in Germany. The guy was not very liked except by Bavarians and the mentally challenged. So we did parties that only accepted that coin as entrance fee to take them out of circulation.

[A wilding]

1 hour ago, JoannaL said:

Here you have lost me completely. Certainly the EU wants to trade with the UK. Certainly they want to do this on good terms. Certainly they want the UK to do well, because that means more business. No one in Europe is interested in getting the "sovereign powers"of the UK. But for any international treaty you need to follow international NOT national rules. I think that is absolutely self-explaining? Also the EU will protect the single market (the UK can be part of it or not part of it, but they may not destroy it by getting all the advantages and not following its rules)

You are of course absolutely correct, except in assuming that there is anything logical about most pro Brexit arguments.

In my opinion, what you were replying to is just echoes from the groundwork being laid by the Brexit camp in preparation for everything going pear shaped over the next year or so. Johnson's government will then basically attempt to blame it all on the evil EU wanting to punish/destroy the UK.

Personally, like other people here, I am metaphorically waiting, head in hands, for the slow motion car crash.

 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

I know hoi and trollfacereborn were mainly trolling by refering to their side as the good guys. Lies on an industrial scale, campaigning on racism and bigotry. HoI still failing t explain what his endangered Britishness actually is. And so on and so forth.

A part of me was tempted to take the bait anyway. But then again, why should I bother, when Parker and Stone had put it so nicely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZlXdw8gML8

[Jen'ari]

So the UK MEPs are leaving Brussels, a lot of them, and their European counterparts are subdued and somewhat sad, then we get pictures Nigel Farage waving Union Jacks with the stupid gurning smile that's been constantly glued to his smug face since 2016 drinking disgusting British ale and generally looking like a classless twat, normal day it seems .

[mormont]

It's a small comfort in these difficult days to know that Farage is over.

[HexMachina]

24 minutes ago, mormont said:

It's a small comfort in these difficult days to know that Farage is over.

Wish i had your optimism. I rather think he will find ways of continuing to slither to the surface of British politics, or at the very least will continue to do and say awful things which our media will lap up and circulate, keeping him in the public eye just as he no doubt wants

[Mindwalker]

1 hour ago, Jen'ari said:

So the UK MEPs are leaving Brussels, a lot of them, and their European counterparts are subdued and somewhat sad, then we get pictures Nigel Farage waving Union Jacks with the stupid gurning smile that's been constantly glued to his smug face since 2016 drinking disgusting British ale and generally looking like a classless twat, normal day it seems .

They did turn off his mic mid-sentence!

And while I sympathize, it also feels as if a very, very long soap opera finally coming to an end. I hope the negotiations won't take away too much of the energy needed to solve problems in the EU.

Of course I wish the same for the UK.

Oh, and I really miss Bercow.

[Lykos]

Should Old Acquaintance be forgot

We'll Meet Again Some Sunny Day

I don't like to be this defeatistic, but the Nobel Peace Prize for the EU in 2012 seems like a much more sensible decision now.

[mormont]

12 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Wish i had your optimism. I rather think he will find ways of continuing to slither to the surface of British politics, or at the very least will continue to do and say awful things which our media will lap up and circulate, keeping him in the public eye just as he no doubt wants

Nah, he's washed up. The last election was his moment and he blew it. He can't get elected as an MEP any more, he won't get elected as an MP, there's no real need to invite him on TV to chunter on about what Brexit should be like now it's actually happening... he's become irrelevant. He'll get a couple more invitations to be on Question Time, I'd imagine, but even those will peter out. 

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

Nah, he's washed up. The last election was his moment and he blew it. He can't get elected as an MEP any more, he won't get elected as an MP, there's no real need to invite him on TV to chunter on about what Brexit should be like now it's actually happening... he's become irrelevant. He'll get a couple more invitations to be on Question Time, I'd imagine, but even those will peter out. 

Funny way to talk about "The most successful politician of our generation".. the words of Ken Clarke.

[Liffguard]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Funny way to talk about "The most successful politician of our generation".. the words of Ken Clarke.

You can both be right. He has been extremely successful (not an endorsement of him, he's loathesome, but undoubtedly successful), and his very success has rendered him irrelevant going forward.

[Heartofice]

17 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

You can both be right. He has been extremely successful (not an endorsement of him, he's loathesome, but undoubtedly successful), and his very success has rendered him irrelevant going forward.

I doubt he will be upset.

[BigFatCoward]

3 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I doubt he will be upset.

You don't think that a megalomaniac media whore will be sad when he disappears into the background and nobody gives a shit about him anymore?

[Liffguard]

10 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I doubt he will be upset.

I suspect he might be. If your whole personality is built around being a crusader, then what are you when the crusade is over?

[Heartofice]

9 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

You don't think that a megalomaniac media whore will be sad when he disappears into the background and nobody gives a shit about him anymore?

I doubt that will happen for a start as I’m sure he’ll carve himself a niche appearing on tv talking about Europe and brexit for quite some time. Seeing as Brexit isn’t going to be stopped talking about for while.

Plus I think he genuinely was first and foremost interested in leaving the EU. I know that’s hard to believe for his haters as it’s much more comforting to think of him as just some loud mouth media cretin.

[A wilding]

Sure, he is likely genuine (or as genuine as anyone ever gets) in his anti EU beliefs. After all he is middle aged, in the wealthiest 0.1%, and his children have dual nationality and so will remain EU citizens. So he is unlikely to feel any personal impact from Brexit and can happily indulge his jingoism.

That does not make him any less a megalomaniac media whore though.