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UK Politics: And Brexit came swirling down

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On 12/24/2019 at 4:32 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

You have one of the answers to your earlier question about where all the conservative posters are. And it is that it is just too tiring and time consuming for the minority of right-leaning posters to rebuff the arguments of the ten or twenty to one ratio of left wing posters who unleash on one’s every point.

So the choice becomes - either you never say anything, or you make your point and then depart, inevitably leaving the mob with the last word and reinforcing the echo chamber’s conviction of its own collective righteousness.

I still make my points when I feel like it. But with the knowledge that the outcome will always be the same. It’s a Groundhog Day ritual that entertains for a couple of posts, but nothing more. One’s expectations should just adapt to it.

What is extremely tiring and time consuming is when conservatives try to make some sort of coherent point about why their policies are better for the country, and all you have to do to reduce them to utter ash is just point at the state of the country for the last ten years. And since there is absolutely nothing that can be said to gainsay that, the conservative posters slink off or try to score some more points by making spurious points about terrorists (but don't even think of mentioning the Tories support for terrorist regimes or employing or making alliances with former terrorists themselves, because of course that's completely different).

When conservative posters take responsibility for the titanic increases in food banks, homelessness, illiteracy and crime in the last ten years rather than ducking the question and talking about that one time Diane Abbott mixed up her figures or how weird Jeremy Corbyn's hat is, perhaps they'll find themselves being taken a bit more seriously.

Although to be fair there's a few New Labour supporters around who still seem to find it hard to talk about the death toll of Tony Blair's policies as well, so perhaps that kind of partisan blindness is to be expected. It's annoying because Britain I always felt was better than the States in that regard, with far more people willing to listen to opposing arguments and move between parties based on their individual pitch at each election, not supporting one group no matter how far down the rabbit hole they go of corruption and incompetence, but it seems that online discourse is somehow trapping people in these positions.

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On 12/16/2019 at 1:53 AM, Platypus Rex said:

Having browsed through the last thread, I was struck, as I frequently am when browsing the political threads on this forum, on how one-sided the discussion is.    I am curious as to why this would be.  This is a forum in theory open to any poster who has a taste or interest in medieval-themed fantasy.   Why would the opinions of the posters on this forum be so radically unrepresentative of people who actually vote?

I can think of a number of possible answers, but I don't want to speculate.  I'm just interested in such thoughts as the regulars here might have.

I'm pretty late to this conversation, though seeing the latest post in this thread I think it seems to still be almost alive. 

My take is that this place seems to be quite heavily skewed towards younger (well younger than 40 anyway) members, but also quite importantly I've noticed quite a few people who work in academia or doing degrees, in university or are in rather academic fields. That definitely would explain a lot of the left wing swing to the place, but IMO it also explains the reactionary nature to disagreement. 

In terms of UK politics though, I don't see many people here with any real loyalties to actual parties, which I think seems to really reflect the country as a whole, as the general election has just proven. Most seems to be as disparaging of Labour and Corbyn as they are of the Tories. Having said that I also haven't noticed any real die hard Tory voters here either, the only one I've spotted refused to vote for them. People voting for Lib Dems over single issues or due to lack of better options etc. 

I myself am not loyal to any party , have no great love for Boris or the Conservative party and would place myself as quite centrist on economic matters, maybe even leftish. Socially I'm probably a little more conservative, and this has changed as I've gotten older.

But where I tend to run into trouble in this place is that I find the whole Brexit / Boris derangement syndrome rather tiresome and the doom-mongering almost amusing. That most of the posts on this thread in particular skew heavily towards the 'Oh look what such and such has done now, who will rid me of this turbulent Government!' nature , means often this place is just a sounding board for people to moan about the government, and have others  pat them on the back. 

There is a lot of hyperbole and catastrophising, which is maybe the nature of the internet itself, only the loudest, craziest voices get heard. But also I'd say there is definitely a bit of a bubble in here. I've seen so many people here who were completely shocked by the Election results or Brexit and that showed how encased a lot of us are away from the way the majority of the country are talking about what they are experiencing. 

 

Edited by Heartofice

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On 12/23/2019 at 8:21 PM, Platypus Rex said:

Like a said, some democratic victories are pyrrhic victories.  And I cannot tell the future.

Sure. The Tories winning a majority is not even a Pyrrhic victory. It’s simply shaping up to be a defeat for Democracy. 

Also, I too cannot tell the future. But I strongly suspect, that the result of government making it harder for it’s citizens to vote is for less citizens participating in the democratic process. 

Which in my opinion is a defeat for Democracy.

On 12/23/2019 at 8:21 PM, Platypus Rex said:

But I've been hearing these sorts of arguments for 30+ years, and, though I cannot tell the future, I cannot help suspecting that your fears are exaggerated if you think a few ID cards and other so-called "anti-fraud" precautions presage the imminent rise of the next Hitler.  Even when only male 21+ landowners could vote, this "democratic" power served as a limitation on the power of kings and tyrants.

 

To the bolded sure. And when females, non-whites, and just people who were to poor to buy land, got the right to vote, that was a victory for Democracy. 

I don’t see you your point here. It seems to bizarrely to suggest anything short of literally stripping all voting rights of non-whites, poor people, women,  or even perhaps that isn’t really a thing that would be that a bad thing for Democracy. Which is utterly absurd. Sure, if ignore oppression of women, nonwhites, and poor people and only care about the oppression of rich white males, the barriers who was allowed to voting during such time really wasn’t that big of a deal.

Hell, you might as well say before voting, people pony up let’s say 100 pounds for a poll tax isn’t that bad. 

Also again  48. That is literally is the number of actual fraud caught in 2017 in regards to the UK. Voter fraud is not an issue. It never was.

Not in America. Not in the UK. 

Again I too cannot tell the future. But I’m pretty sure making it more of an ultimatum to spend money on acquiring the ID now required to get participate in the Democratic process, or you know food, housing, shit people need to survive, will lead to many going to the latter option. And it does bode for Democracy for large segments of the population to see any defeats by their side being done because of a practically nonexistent issue. Lots of big threats to Democracy. Voter fraud isn’t one them. Anymore than a blind infant is a threat to a grown man with a gun. 

This not about caution. It never was, and it  probably never will be.  It’s about one political party desiring to under cut it’s opposition through making it harder for groups that are known to have more left-wing, or liberal leanings to vote. That’s it. 

And, again their literally planning on taking people off the registration list if they don’t vote 3 years. 

This doesn’t even look to be about fraud. It’s just blatantly making the ability of the masses to participate in Democracy that much more difficult.  

Again a victory for Democracy would have been doing what Labour wanted and make Automatic voter registration. You’d at least concede that would be victory for it right? 

Anything that hinders the ability for groups within in society to actually participate in their democratic process is a defeat for Democracy. Even if it won’t definitely  lead to the worst sort of totalitarian regime imaginable lead by the worst short of dictator. Well by itself at least. 

On 12/23/2019 at 8:21 PM, Platypus Rex said:

And I understand Cameron is deeply regretful that he made it so easy for the people to vote.  Because in his view they made the wrong decision.

Shame that the Tories actual actions in government seem also in accordance with  the message voting should be made harder. 

Rather than following Labour’s goal of having automatic-voter registration because...the practically nonexistent problem of voter that wouldn’t be effected by it anyway. 

Because those couple dozen cases of fraud really changed everything these last few elections. I’m being sarcastic. 

On 12/23/2019 at 8:21 PM, Platypus Rex said:

If more people agreed with you, the Tories would not have done as well as they did.

Meh possibly man. Leaving was a big issue but it wasn’t the only issue.  You seem to going with An appeal to majority here. If you desire to cry “the majority of people disagree with you.” it doesn’t really add anything to the conversation. 

On 12/23/2019 at 8:21 PM, Platypus Rex said:

You're just arguing that democracy is bad (or at least dangerous), because people are stupid.  You may be right.  But that does not mean there is anything wrong with my semantics.  When the will of the people is applied and enforced, that is still meaningful to call it a "democratic victory".

No, I’m simply saying that it’s not always victory for Democracy if the actual consequences of voters actions don’t always reflect the idealizations of what many or a majority think would have happened as a result of said action

A politician upholding their promise to bring down crime is good. It’s not a victory for Democracy anymore than it’d be a “defeat” by virtue of failing to keep their promise.

And no, your initial post gave the impression you thought the referendum  was legally binding.

On 12/23/2019 at 8:21 PM, Platypus Rex said:

I really don't want to rehearse all the pro and anti Brexit arguments.  For whatever reason, the anti-Brexit arguments have not resonated with the public, as well as you think they should have.

I’m guessing you don’t want to give an argument to what I actually said because you know you can’t give a solid rebuttal to it. 

Yes a lot more people are still in favor of Brexit than I’d prefer. And?

Does that mean anything I’ve said is wrong?

I don’t think so. I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you don’t  think that either. 

What many people say they actually want out of Brexit-will not and for that matter cannot be delivered by Brexit, and that powerful figures and media outlets on the right framed the discussion in a patently dishonest fashion. 

Like take this example:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/brexit-party-founder-claims-people-16677187.amp

Pakistan is not apart of the EU. The migration patterns in any way would not be cut down by virtue of leaving the Union. Many leavers have been lied to. And are continuously being lied to by those pushing to leave. 

I am honestly have no idea why you’ve just decided introduce Pedophilia in this discussion.  But Um sure. There are pedophiles with different political beliefs. I never thought I’d have to make such a statement but there you go lol. Did you you know some people who jay walk have different political sensibilities than other people who’ve also jay walked? Crazy, I know. 

Seriously though There are people who think Brexit is a bad idea who are bigoted. Sure. 

 I’m betting the ones who did voted remain with the same vapid justification of needing to do so to Protect British culture from the wave of non-European immigration that would swamp the country.  I am not impressed with your invocations of “both sides have problematic people.” in regards here. 

On 12/23/2019 at 8:21 PM, Platypus Rex said:

And arguing that democracy is bad because people are racist (which I don't think is a fair characterization of the people of the UK) does not change the fact that this is a democratic victory.

The Tories plan on getting Brexit done. Fine. They’re also planning on making it harder  for much of the population to actually participate in it’s Democracy. This should not be needed for Brexit. The Tories winning is not a victory for Democracy. It’s a defeat. 

Hell have Brexit if done through the proper channels. 

But making it harder for citizens to participate in Democracy just so certain political factions could maintain their power is a tiny problem?  If you actually care about Democracy than those things should be seen as abominable. A crime that should not be accepted. Instead you seem either to brush off any concerns about them, or at the minimizing their likely harmful effects that would accompany them.  Because it seems like people who closely align more steadily with your political beliefs are the offenders in this particular instance.

I didn’t say Democracy was bad because people are racist. That’s a childish reading of my post. 

 I didn’t call all people in the UK racist. I said many people’s xenophobia/racism influenced them to the point where they voted for something that went against their interests-even their supposed interests in “preserving their culture, and traditions.” from the supposed threat of immigration-because again Brexit will usher in a ton of Asian immigration.  A ton of Asian-Muslim immigration. 

This is not what many leavers had in mind when they actually voted for the thing. 

On 12/23/2019 at 8:21 PM, Platypus Rex said:

But feel free to keep arguing smearing those who voted remain with the charge of racism.  You will make more and more enemies, and keep losing more and more elections.  Or maybe you can start wising up.  But that's up to you.

The immigration population that would be curbed by Brexit did not change the day to day lives of the average person in the UK. They would not. They are not. They could not at the actual rate they were migrating.  By the second generation they’d practically fully assimilated. I don’t think you have an argument for why such fears of their mere existence of society isn’t xenophobic. You just seem comfortable sanctimoniously saying calling such fears xenophobic or perhaps racist, is actual bigotry and leaving it there. This specific grievance is valid because...something. 

These specific reasons for leaving shouldn’t be looked at as  xenophobic because I guess a lot of people have them. Sure. 

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On the topic of Voter ID in the UK, not something I had heard much about, and the reports on here made it all sound very sinister. Did a quick look on the internet to find out more. Here is Channel 4's Fact Check on the subject:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-the-governments-voter-id-plans


- There is no evidence of wide-scale electoral fraud in the UK, and the number of cases that make it to the police are tiny compared to the total votes cast. Although we don’t know how many cases of electoral fraud slip under officials’ radar.

- The Electoral Commission and the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe have recommended that the UK introduce some form of voter ID.

- Around 7 per cent of voters don’t have photographic ID, but when the new policy is introduced, they will be able to apply for a free “local elector ID” to allow them to vote. This is essentially what already happens in Northern Ireland, where voter ID has been in place since 2003.

- We have very limited data from pilots of the new scheme in two council areas. These trials found 0.4 per cent of voters who went to polling stations were turned away and did not return due to problems with their ID.

- In one area that trialled the scheme, it seemed that Asian communities were more adversely affected by the need for photo-ID, although this data is extremely limited due to the small sample size.

- It’s not clear that voter ID will affect people’s likelihood of voting: the most common reason people cite for not voting is not having enough time. In areas that trialled photo-ID systems, less than two per cent of people said the new requirement was the reason they didn’t take part.


It was also interesting that 2/3rds of people already thought they needed photo ID to vote already anyway. 

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23 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I'm pretty late to this conversation, though seeing the latest post in this thread I think it seems to still be almost alive. 

My take is that this place seems to be quite heavily skewed towards younger (well younger than 40 anyway) members, but also quite importantly I've noticed quite a few people who work in academia or doing degrees, in university or are in rather academic fields. That definitely would explain a lot of the left wing swing to the place, but IMO it also explains the reactionary nature to disagreement. 

In terms of UK politics though, I don't see many people here with any real loyalties to actual parties, which I think seems to really reflect the country as a whole, as the general election has just proven. Most seems to be as disparaging of Labour and Corbyn as they are of the Tories. Having said that I also haven't noticed any real die hard Tory voters here either, the only one I've spotted refused to vote for them. People voting for Lib Dems over single issues or due to lack of better options etc. 

I myself am not loyal to any party , have no great love for Boris or the Conservative party and would place myself as quite centrist on economic matters, maybe even leftish. Socially I'm probably a little more conservative, and this has changed as I've gotten older.

But where I tend to run into trouble in this place is that I find the whole Brexit / Boris derangement syndrome rather tiresome and the doom-mongering almost amusing. That most of the posts on this thread in particular skew heavily towards the 'Oh look what such and such has done now, who will rid me of this turbulent Government!' nature , means often this place is just a sounding board for people to moan about the government, and have others  pat them on the back. 

There is a lot of hyperbole and catastrophising, which is maybe the nature of the internet itself, only the loudest, craziest voices get heard. But also I'd say there is definitely a bit of a bubble in here. I've seen so many people here who were completely shocked by the Election results or Brexit and that showed how encased a lot of us are away from the way the majority of the country are talking about what they are experiencing. 

 

Inner London and university constituencies now have such a different political outlook to most of the rest of the country as almost to be two separate nations.  Social class per se is now almost irrelevant as a driver of voting intentions (the Conservatives actually won 43% of the vote among households earning £20,000 p.a., or less). But within classes, you get voters with very different sets of cultural values, which in turn drive voting intentions. Broadly, people who favour the free movement of people, capital, and international institutions swing left;. People who favour tradition, sovereignty, and national institutions swing right.

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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Inner London and university constituencies now have such a different political outlook to most of the rest of the country as almost to be two separate nations.  Social class per se is now almost irrelevant as a driver of voting intentions (the Conservatives actually won 43% of the vote among households earning £20,000 p.a., or less). But within classes, you get voters with very different sets of cultural values, which in turn drive voting intentions. Broadly, people who favour the free movement of people, capital, and international institutions swing left;. People who favour tradition, sovereignty, and national institutions swing right.

I recently watched this video with Matthew Goodwin, author of 'National Populism, the revolt against Liberal Democracy', where he talks about a lot of this stuff. I recommend that book, as well as WhiteShift and The Road to SomeWhere as they talk a lot about the subject.

Anyway, this video (excuse the presenters and the channel, I don't like them and they seem a little too 'wa wah the loony left are mad' types) is very interesting in terms of talking about how Goodwin had been talking about this trend for years, about how Milliband had basically ignored him, but the Tories were well aware of it. This trend away from party political loyalties and skewing more around values. 

That Labour are still massively behind the curve on this is scary. 
 




 

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9 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I recently watched this video with Matthew Goodwin, author of 'National Populism, the revolt against Liberal Democracy', where he talks about a lot of this stuff. I recommend that book, as well as WhiteShift and The Road to SomeWhere as they talk a lot about the subject.

Anyway, this video (excuse the presenters and the channel, I don't like them and they seem a little too 'wa wah the loony left are mad' types) is very interesting in terms of talking about how Goodwin had been talking about this trend for years, about how Milliband had basically ignored him, but the Tories were well aware of it. This trend away from party political loyalties and skewing more around values. 

That Labour are still massively behind the curve on this is scary. 
 




 

I think they probably take London and core cities as the norm for the country (40% of Labour's members are in London).

They have utterly lost touch with their former supporters in small cities and medium-sized towns.  I never expected to see all four Potteries seats go Conservative, in my lifetime, or places like Redcar, Burnley, Leigh, and NW Durham (all held by Labour in 1983).

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23 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think they probably take London and core cities as the norm for the country (40% of Labour's members are in London).

They have utterly lost touch with their former supporters in small cities and medium-sized towns.  I never expected to see all four Potteries seats go Conservative, in my lifetime, or places like Redcar, Burnley, Leigh, and NW Durham (all held by Labour in 1983).

I think it’s that the loudest voices , mainly Momentum voices, are predominantly that type of person. Young, straight out of Uni, and who’s interests and concerns centre around topics that the majority of the country feel are not a priority. Labour needs to either get rid of them or find a way to shut them up. It has been amusing since the election to see people like Owen Jones and Ash Sarkar try to push the blame away from themselves too.

I really don’t think it would be too hard for Labour to pull it back however , Corbyn was clearly a sticking point, as he was seen as someone who was very much against the UK and for everyone else, which doesn’t go down too well with voters.

Refocusing on working class people and their values without Corbyn I’d expect an improvement. However looking at the candidates to replace him all I’m seeing is a doubling down of progressivism. 

Edited by Heartofice

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I have no time for honours, as people might know, but this New Year, note that there's a knighthood for IDS, nothing for John Bercow and the personal data of honorees was leaked online through a mighty cockup. Rewards for screwing over the poor, petty spite, and incompetence: I think you can take that as the hallmarks of this government. Look forward to more of all three.

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So much of the talk has been of Rebecca Long-Baily being a front runner for Labour leadership. Doesn't look good for Labour if this is true. George Osbourne suggesting she would be the Tories preferred candidate!

I guess it all depends on whether her 'Progressive Patriotism' means anything to anybody. It doesn't seem to so far.

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33 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

So, 4th April we find out the new Labour leader. And Yvette Cooper will not be running

Wow, Corbyn gets quite a while as the leader of Labour after the wonderful results for Labour in the last election.

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56 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Wow, Corbyn gets quite a while as the leader of Labour after the wonderful results for Labour in the last election.

The timetable seems fairly standard, a similar length as the last couple of leadership elections. It just seems different because Corbyn is staying on until the conclusion, rather than resigning immediately and having a deputy become acting party leader for the interim period.

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Looking forward to Corbyns excuse as to why he won’t be leaving when they elect a new leader. Maybe he’ll do a Putin and take turns.

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8 minutes ago, Maltaran said:

The timetable seems fairly standard, a similar length as the last couple of leadership elections. It just seems different because Corbyn is staying on until the conclusion, rather than resigning immediately and having a deputy become acting party leader for the interim period.

For @Ser Scot A Ellison‘s benefit, Labour’s deputy (who was...not a Corbyn supporter) has also stepped down, so this election is for both a new leader and a new deputy.

 

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11 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Looking forward to Corbyns excuse as to why he won’t be leaving when they elect a new leader. Maybe he’ll do a Putin and take turns.

Can you point to any concrete evidence or indication that he won't resign?

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14 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

Can you point to any concrete evidence or indication that he won't resign?

1. It was a joke

2. Hes still there.

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I wonder who it will be, the trouble is a lot of the candidates broadly agree with the direction of the party under Corbyn, Kier Starmer is probably the most credible imo.

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1 hour ago, Jen'ari said:

I wonder who it will be, the trouble is a lot of the candidates broadly agree with the direction of the party under Corbyn, Kier Starmer is probably the most credible imo.

I think he is the most electable, which is all I care about anymore. 

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