The North Remembers; The West Forgets: A Theory

[aeverett]

I've been considering the Stark warging and Bran's greenseer abilities for some time, as well as Jaime's fever dream and little Cersei Lannister's ability to pet caged lions, and I am beginning to think the Lannisters have many of the Stark abilities, they just don't realize it and shoot themselves in the foot because of it.   

As we know from the World of Ice and Fire, the Lannisters are descended from the First Men and the Andals.  Unlike the Arryn's, who conquered the Royce's and other first men houses, taking their lands and killing off their sons, the Lannisters brokered peace through marriages and hostages.  Eventually the last First Men Lannister King, Gerald III, voluntarily married his daughter to the Andal, Joffrey Lydden.  As Gerald III had no sons, Joffrey Lydden took the Lannister name and became the first Andal King of the Rock, with all future Lannisters, including Tywin and his kids, being his descendants.   This means that House Lannister has a significant amount of First Men blood, even though they long ago abandoned the First Men ways, faith, and traditions in favor of those practiced by the Andals.   This could explain Jaime's fever dream, or Cersei being able to pet caged lions to impress Elia and Oberyn when they were all kids, not to mention how a drop of her blood could permit Maggie the Frog to peer into her future in such detail.   Even Tyrion's obsession with dragons, which some take as a sign he's Aerys II's bastard rather than Tywin's son, might be due to the fact that dragons will play a large role in his future, not that he has any dragon blood himself.  In short (no pun intended), it might be like Jaime's fever dream or the prophesies in Cersei's blood, a diluted first men ability rather than a Targaryen genetic artifact.  The Starks, as do the Mormonts and Umbers, appear to remember these abilities and use them to a certain exent, even if the Free Folk have the most knowledge and control.  The Lannisters chalk them up to fairy tales told by their nursemaids, and think them the stuff of fiction.   

This all makes me wonder how deep the Lannister abilities might go and had they learned how to harness them safely, they might be able to hold their own against the Starks and Targaryens, with something other than gold and human armies.   What do you guys think?

[Lollygag]

Like what seems like most of the forum, I used to see the Lannisters as a filler family so to speak in that they had nothing to do with the more magical elements of the books beyond getting dragged into the middle of things like everyone else. The title of the series led me to this - A Song of Ice and Fire - and it had me focused on the Starks and Targs as the magical center of the story. After deeper reads, I suspect that the series title, while accurate, may also function as a red herring for the reader. There's lots of multiple meanings in this series and I see a lot of these "Hey! Look over there!" distractions to hide a more important slight of hand in the works. Like you, I now think the Lannisters have their own magical background which will play some role in the story.

To what you mention here, I'll add that the old gods have their origin as far as we can tell in the Reach (they have 3 weirwoods called the 3 Singers). Garth is purported to have a ton of children, but record has all of their descendants as being of current or former Reach houses - all except Stark and Lannister. There's also House Crane in the Reach descended from Garth who supposedly skinchange Cranes. 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Garth_Greenhand

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Crane

The Lannisters have a history of being a middleman or a balancer. Lann stole Casterly gold for his hair which seems a hint that he may have married a Casterly daughter. They married into the Andals rather than war with them. Robert's Rebellion swung on Tywin's decision. The fate of the Targaryens swung with Jaime's blade. Cersei is a Lannister, but we have Tyrion and Jaime with their own ties to both ice and fire. Tyrion has relationships with all of the Starks except Arya (think that's coming later) but seems like to align with dragons. Jaime is tied to the Starks but is linked to fiery swords. The Lannisters often have twins in their family and Tyrion himself may be a twin in himself. They usually have two faces. Cersei and Jaime are first introduced as never smiling (Cersei) and never taking anything seriously (Jaime). Tyrion is literally two-faced but dreams himself as having two faces, one which laughs and another which cries. Tywin never smiled except with Joanna Lannister, his other half. The Lannisters are also strongly linked to the stonemen and greyscale (link below) and these were the watery balance to the fiery Valyrians. I think the Lannisters' FM ancestry may be quite important, but my pickup from the text is that the Lannisters will be mixed and act as a balance, equalizer or stabilizer in some way and the current placement of Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion seems to point that way.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/148905-is-craster-a-casterly-now-with-plot-relevance/

[Tyrion1991]

On 12/16/2019 at 2:42 AM, aeverett said:

I've been considering the Stark warging and Bran's greenseer abilities for some time, as well as Jaime's fever dream and little Cersei Lannister's ability to pet caged lions, and I am beginning to think the Lannisters have many of the Stark abilities, they just don't realize it and shoot themselves in the foot because of it.   

As we know from the World of Ice and Fire, the Lannisters are descended from the First Men and the Andals.  Unlike the Arryn's, who conquered the Royce's and other first men houses, taking their lands and killing off their sons, the Lannisters brokered peace through marriages and hostages.  Eventually the last First Men Lannister King, Gerald III, voluntarily married his daughter to the Andal, Joffrey Lydden.  As Gerald III had no sons, Joffrey Lydden took the Lannister name and became the first Andal King of the Rock, with all future Lannisters, including Tywin and his kids, being his descendants.   This means that House Lannister has a significant amount of First Men blood, even though they long ago abandoned the First Men ways, faith, and traditions in favor of those practiced by the Andals.   This could explain Jaime's fever dream, or Cersei being able to pet caged lions to impress Elia and Oberyn when they were all kids, not to mention how a drop of her blood could permit Maggie the Frog to peer into her future in such detail.   Even Tyrion's obsession with dragons, which some take as a sign he's Aerys II's bastard rather than Tywin's son, might be due to the fact that dragons will play a large role in his future, not that he has any dragon blood himself.  In short (no pun intended), it might be like Jaime's fever dream or the prophesies in Cersei's blood, a diluted first men ability rather than a Targaryen genetic artifact.  The Starks, as do the Mormonts and Umbers, appear to remember these abilities and use them to a certain exent, even if the Free Folk have the most knowledge and control.  The Lannisters chalk them up to fairy tales told by their nursemaids, and think them the stuff of fiction.   

This all makes me wonder how deep the Lannister abilities might go and had they learned how to harness them safely, they might be able to hold their own against the Starks and Targaryens, with something other than gold and human armies.   What do you guys think?

 

The North Remembers is a bit ironic because the North has actually forgotten. They don’t know about warging, magic or the Others at the start of the series. They’re entirely ignorant of these things until these things just manifest anyway. It’s being nearly spelt out to them for their convenience.

I think it’s mentioned in a Bran chapter by the children that there was a race of great mountain lions so perhaps they were the Direwolf equivalent? That wouldn’t surprise me if there is some link to the older House Lannister.

I think it would be a little disingenuous to say the North Remembered. Jon didn’t even know giants existed and Neds first act is to cut a mans head off for telling the truth. I think the North knows nothing and the plot/Destiny has had to intervene to teach them anything.

If Cersei was getting magical visions or being drawn to caged lions who would tell her answers or offer protection; but she ignored this. Then yes I d agree that this would be a point George might be driving for. But I just don’t see that dynamic playing out.

[the Other Wolf]

23 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Neds first act is to cut a mans head off for telling the truth.

I think it is pretty clear he was executed for desertion.  In regards to remembrance, if the north truly remembered Ned would have maybe interrogated him to find out more, but in the end he still abandoned his post by deserting and would still have lost his head for it.

[redriver]

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

The North Remembers is a bit ironic because the North has actually forgotten. They don’t know about warging, magic or the Others at the start of the series. They’re entirely ignorant of these things until these things just manifest anyway. It’s being nearly spelt out to them for their convenience.

I think it’s mentioned in a Bran chapter by the children that there was a race of great mountain lions so perhaps they were the Direwolf equivalent? That wouldn’t surprise me if there is some link to the older House Lannister.

I think it would be a little disingenuous to say the North Remembered. Jon didn’t even know giants existed and Neds first act is to cut a mans head off for telling the truth. I think the North knows nothing and the plot/Destiny has had to intervene to teach them anything.

If Cersei was getting magical visions or being drawn to caged lions who would tell her answers or offer protection; but she ignored this. Then yes I d agree that this would be a point George might be driving for. But I just don’t see that dynamic playing out.

True in many ways.False in others.

The groups who do show signs of remembering are the Wildlings,the Crannogmen and the mountain clans.

Secrets long forgotten in Winterfell.

A race of mountain lions?Does that sound right to you?

[Tyrion1991]

“The giants are almost gone as well, they who were our bane and our brothers.  The great lions of the western hills have been slain, the unicorns are all but gone, the mammoths down to a few hundred. The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us.” - Leaf ADWD Bran chapter

Its one of those offhand references. But yeah Big Lions.

TBH we’re five out of seven books in and the whole magical conflict hasn’t been explained. Coming from an author who by his own frank admission doesn’t plan things in advance. I am very skeptical that George has planned out an entire magic system off screen and has all the mythology ironed out. I could easily see the series concluding without George providing any explanation to leave it to people’s imagination. Nothing he writes would satisfy people’s theories. However I don’t think there’s any truth to be inferred or master plan to be divined because he’s writing the story as he goes. Plus, he doesn’t have a hard magic system which inherently means there aren’t any answers. At this point George could say that the Others are aliens coming out of their spaceship and it wouldn’t contradict anything else he’s written.

 

 

[Tyrion1991]

3 hours ago, the Other Wolf said:

I think it is pretty clear he was executed for desertion.  In regards to remembrance, if the north truly remembered Ned would have maybe interrogated him to find out more, but in the end he still abandoned his post by deserting and would still have lost his head for it.

 

Without trial and by the local landlord rather than his own military institution? That’s taking the law into his own hands and is evil. These are the actions of a thuggish and barbarian society not some romanticised Germanic warrior culture worthy of praise. Wolves are vermin that eat children. The Stark fetish for them is just a bunch of thick skulled landlords who are trying to set themselves above other people.

With the punishment being summary execution? Ned looked that man in the eyes and thought he was lying. His house should have been far more severely punished for that kind of stupidity.

Why are we continuously encouraged to belittle the Lannisters for not taking the threat of the Others seriously but Ned and Rob/the North get a free pass? So stupidity is fine as long as you put on a long face and don’t put on airs and graces? But if geography means you have money you’re a bad person automatically and hubris must Doom you. 

So Ned finds out the man told the truth and ran. So let’s cut the mans head off in the face of the apocalypse. Let’s cull the weak and maintain order through the threat of violence. Well, Ned has no right complaining about Joffrey cutting his head off if we’re going to do loosely define treason.

The Stark’s are the problem.

 

[redriver]

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Stark’s are the problem.

At least the Starks didn't misplace their commas.

[Hugorfonics]

19 minutes ago, redriver said:

At least the Starks didn't misplace their commas.

Apostrophes

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Without trial and by the local landlord rather than his own military institution? That’s taking the law into his own hands and is evil.

Erhm... At that point Ned is the Warden of the North, not just a random northern lord. In other words, it was exactly within his purview to do what he did. 

4 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

With the punishment being summary execution? Ned looked that man in the eyes and thought he was lying. His house should have been far more severely punished for that kind of stupidity.

 

Unfortunately, we don’t know how that conversation went. Yes, Ned thought the man was mad, and maybe at that point he was. Or not. Point being, we don’t know anything about their exchange, apart from what Ned tells Cat. Interestingly enough, Martin gives us this little bit in Cat’s PoV, not Ned’s; as if hearing it from Ned’s PoV we’d inevitably be in his head and might learn more. At any rate, here’s what he says:

AGoT, Catelyn I

”He was the fourth this year”, Ned said grimly. “The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him.” He sighed. “Ben writes that the strength of the Night’s Watch is down below a thousand. It’s not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well.” 

As to “The North Remembers”, what @redriver said up thread, and that is shown not only by what Jojen tells Bran, “Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell... but not in the wet wild”, but also what Osha says:

”I was born there, child, like my mother and her mother before her and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember.”

[TheSunspearKid]

10 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

The North Remembers is a bit ironic because the North has actually forgotten. They don’t know about warging, magic or the Others at the start of the series. They’re entirely ignorant of these things until these things just manifest anyway. It’s being nearly spelt out to them for their convenience.

To this, I agree the Starks have forgotton, but not necessarily all of the north. We learn later on how much shrewder Roose Bolton and Wyman Manderly are (in my opinion) than Ned. I don't know for sure, but definitely believe it possible they could know about these things. Just because they don't help spell it out for the Starks doesn't mean they don't know. They are just biding their time in my opinion.

[Tyrion1991]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Erhm... At that point Ned is the Warden of the North, not just a random northern lord. In other words, it was exactly within his purview to do what he did. 

Unfortunately, we don’t know how that conversation went. Yes, Ned thought the man was mad, and maybe at that point he was. Or not. Point being, we don’t know anything about their exchange, apart from what Ned tells Cat. Interestingly enough, Martin gives us this little bit in Cat’s PoV, not Ned’s; as if hearing it from Ned’s PoV we’d inevitably be in his head and might learn more. At any rate, here’s what he says:

AGoT, Catelyn I

”He was the fourth this year”, Ned said grimly. “The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him.” He sighed. “Ben writes that the strength of the Night’s Watch is down below a thousand. It’s not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well.” 

As to “The North Remembers”, what @redriver said up thread, and that is shown not only by what Jojen tells Bran, “Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell... but not in the wet wild”, but also what Osha says:

”I was born there, child, like my mother and her mother before her and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember.”

 

It’s a serious conflict of interest to have law and order be handled by the biggest landholder in a given region. That is massively prone to abuse and corruption. Law enforcement should be handled by crown appointed officials and judges with some training in the law. Who actually might know what they are doing and be slightly more impartial. The Starks are gangsters running a protection racket. People buy completely into this chivalric romanticism of House Stark with all the wolf symbolism and house words. Whilst in the same story Southern houses are continuously satirised for being corrupt. 

Not to mention that Cat utterly abuses this legal power when she kidnaps Tyrion and starts a war. Holding a show trial and trying to have him executed on unsubstantiated charges. 

They aren’t punished for this forgetfulness. By Dance Bran is in training, Jon aware of the threat and taking measures; so that ignorance didn’t amount to much. Whilst the Lannister’s are being endlessly critiqued for not paying attention to this supernatural threat. George depicts it as reasonable that the Starks did not know but satirises the Southerners not knowing.

[Tyrion1991]

54 minutes ago, the Other Wolf said:

Why are you here then? Why do you care or even read the books? 

Do what you want but everyone knows you hate the Starks and it is clear the STARKS play the central role. How many other families have as many POVs?Started with them and it will end with them.  

@Ran finally locked your other Stark bashing thread where you spent so much time whinging about whether you should even continue reading. 

"I think OP has established that he should not continue reading, and the rest is just going around in circles. Feels like it's run its course, no?"

So again, why are you here?

P.s. I have never accused you or other Lannister fans of anything you try to rebut with. 

 

I like other characters in the series: Dany, Tyrion and Jamie. Those are nuanced and fairly morally grey characters when George isn’t stacking the dice against them. If it were not for those characters I would not have gotten interested in the series. At all. To me the Starks/North are not the books and their presence lessens the entire experience.

I like those characters because there’s a lot of very good conflicts and it makes for good storytelling. House Stark is not that. House Stark/the North is a vehicle for George to push a one sided thematic point to advocate emotional stoicism, political conservatism and “duty”. My time studying history at uni really runs counter to a lot of what he asserts, especially concerning the root cause of war and the role of the individual to shape events. As well as the sheer absurdity of House Stark which is given a free pass at every opportunity.

I really doubt that everybody on the internet knows I dislike them. 

Other posters restarted that thread after like three months of inactivity. 

Because in a forum you talk about the book series. Because with Winds coming out soon and the show ending fairly recently it’s going to be on the mind. So it’s therapeutic to talk about it.

 

[kissdbyfire]

On 12/26/2019 at 8:17 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

WI like other characters in the series: Dany, Tyrion and Jamie. Those are nuanced and fairly morally grey characters when George isn’t stacking the dice against them. If it were not for those characters I would not have gotten interested in the series. At all. To me the Starks/North are not the books and their presence lessens the entire experience.

The Starks are most definitely not the books, it’s only your extreme bias against them that makes you feel that way. Maybe a comprehensive reread could help you here. What I don’t get is why their presence lessesns the experience.if we go W/ the old saying that variety is the spice of life... well, there you go. 

 

Quote

WI like those characters because there’s a lot of very good conflicts and it makes for good storytelling. House Stark is not that. House Stark/the North is a vehicle for George to push a one sided thematic point to advocate emotional stoicism, political conservatism and “duty”. My time studying history at uni really runs counter to a lot of what he asserts, especially concerning the root cause of war and the role of the individual to shape events. As well as the sheer absurdity of House Stark which is given a free pass at every opportunity.

 

The bold is so off I can’t  even... you are probably the only Jon hater to make these claims. The posse of haters go-to line is that Jon betrayed the NW and acted out of love. WORDS ARE WIND! It’s actions that matter, not words. sorry, keep my big [drunk and unable to spell] mouth shut. 

 

 

[Lady Dacey]

5 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

It’s a serious conflict of interest to have law and order be handled by the biggest landholder in a given region. That is massively prone to abuse and corruption. Law enforcement should be handled by crown appointed officials and judges with some training in the law. Who actually might know what they are doing and be slightly more impartial. The Starks are gangsters running a protection racket. People buy completely into this chivalric romanticism of House Stark with all the wolf symbolism and house words. Whilst in the same story Southern houses are continuously satirised for being corrupt. 

Hey there. I'm really quite confused by your posts... I mean I absolutely agree with the first underlined part and I believe most people in western countries in the 21st century do too. I hope so at least. It's the very common ground of the modern state, that three powers and etcetera. So I agree. But then there is this bolded part I truly don't understand. I mean, in your opinion, how are the Stars any different than their contemporary great houses in Westeros? I'm intrigued. Then there is the second underlined part which makes me wonder: who are you talking about? Seems to me anyone who "completely buys into chivalric romanticism" should not be taken seriously, doesn't matter what it is about. 

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

House Stark/the North is a vehicle for George to push a one sided thematic point to advocate emotional stoicism, political conservatism and “duty”.

 You really think that is the authour's intention? I see how this could be some reader's interpretation, but those are (very) disputable. Even if I were interested in a few characters, I wouldn't read books that I feel 'advocate' stuff like that, for real. 

[Tyrion1991]

@Lady-Dacey

Because it is noted for the other Houses. It isn’t for House Stark. This is hypocritical. The inference is that George presents them as being morally superior Ubermen.

Stark fans. I think they completely buy into what’s being sold. Whilst at the same time George endlessly satirises other romantic embellishments for all other houses. Why is it silly for the Lannister’s to compare themselves to Lions yet we accept this of the Starks without question? It’s that sort of thing. There’s an obvious bias baked into the text. 

Why else would you have respectable characters constantly go on about it like Aemon and Jeor? I don’t see any characters complaining about “machine men with machine minds”. Why have that be the moral of the first chapter and when Ned executes the deserter. “Let the boy die” is entirely equating this world view with Jons coming of age story. 

I like the other characters too much. That interest is more important than my dislike of the Starks and the lost cause.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Why is it silly for the Lannister’s to compare themselves to Lions yet we accept this of the Starks without question? It’s that sort of thing. There’s an obvious bias baked into the text.

The thing is you make things up. Who said it was silly for the Lannisters to compare themselves to Lions but ok for the Starks to do that? Many of the supposed "biases" against other characters you talk about I've never seen argued. 

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Why else would you have respectable characters constantly go on about it like Aemon and Jeor?

Go on about what?

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I don’t see any characters complaining about “machine men with machine minds”.

Why would they? There aren't any characters that are machine men with machine minds. 

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Why have that be the moral of the first chapter and when Ned executes the deserter

What??? Machine men with machine minds is the moral of the first chapter? I think you are misunderstanding the text completely if that's what you gathered from it. 

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Let the boy die” is entirely equating this world view with Jons coming of age story. 

Except it isn't. At all. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Because it is noted for the other Houses. It isn’t for House Stark. This is hypocritical. The inference is that George presents them as being morally superior Ubermen.

You didn't really answer any of the questions LD presented. You said it's a serious conflict of interest to have the biggest landholder up hold the law. LD agrees but says this isn't something particular to the Starks, it's the way of the Westeros world, & that the Starks aren't the only ones. You reply that the Starks are different because "it" is noted for the other houses but not the Starks. 

What is "noted" for the other houses & do you have quotes to back that up? 

[Tyrion1991]

51 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The thing is you make things up. Who said it was silly for the Lannisters to compare themselves to Lions but ok for the Starks to do that? Many of the supposed "biases" against other characters you talk about I've never seen argued. 

Go on about what?

Why would they? There aren't any characters that are machine men with machine minds. 

What??? Machine men with machine minds is the moral of the first chapter? I think you are misunderstanding the text completely if that's what you gathered from it. 

Except it isn't. At all. 

 

 

Cersei getting captured and banging on the prison walls shouting “Iam a lion! I am a lion! Hear me roar!” This is satirical.

The whole story about (I think it’s the hound who tells it) about the Lion that almost killed Tyrek Lannister and how it doesn’t matter that he puts the beast on his sigil.

Theres this continuous of satire and mockery of this idea that the Lannister’s are lions. Whilst nobody mocks Rob for calling himself the Grey Wolf or the Tullys for equating themselves to fish (which should be an absolute goldmine). It is taken at face value that the Starks are wolves. It’s become even worse once the warg becomes common knowledge since some of the Starks are actually cannibals and have probably done quite a bit of beastiality as well. 

Aemon - Love is the death of duty.

Aemon - Kill the boy Jon Snow and let the man be born.

Jeor - The things we love always destroy us in the end.

Which means George isn’t making a balanced argument. George is saying that following your duty is always good because that’s selfless whereas love is corrupting because it’s inherently selfish. I cite Charlie Chaplins speech because the Nazis were machine men who were entirely convinced they were doing their duty for the betterment of all Germans. To avoid that issue entirely and only depict duty as a positive thing whilst love is the cause of every war is absurd.

The moral of those two chapters is to blame emotion and young hot headed idealists for the worlds problems. As long as you have sober and cool heads at the helm who take responsibility for their decisions then all will be well with the world. Ned, with a straight face, tells his son that’s its okay to chop an innocent mans head off as long as you do it with dignity and without malice. 

It very much is. 

Okay, when Robert Baratheon puts on the tourney of the Hand, Ned complains about such extravagance and pomp being a vulgar waste of money. He later goes on to complain about knights being puffed up peacocks who strut around and aren’t like proper northern soldiers. This is George making the point about the corruption of the Andals and the South whilst contrasting it to the puritanical North. So his focus is on this rather than the fact that Ned is a parasite living off the backs of his own peasants. George is shifting the focus, again, away from the system and towards personalities. It’s like a US Southern plantation owner complaining about the opulence and corruption of new money in the Northern states. We would argue that this is a trite point to be making when the real immorality is being sidestepped. This is true of House Stark.

 

[the Other Wolf]

5 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Why is it silly for the Lannister’s to compare themselves to Lions yet we accept this of the Starks without question?

What's silly is you hijacking another thread to Stark bash.

Can you find one post (out of the millions) on this forum where you can refer to anyone calling any other house, but not the Starks, silly for referring to themselves as there house mascot? 

You are very good at ignoring points others make and then just creating new tin men to argue against. 

EVERYONE knows you hate the Starks and GRRM for making them a major part of the story.

So again I ask, why even read the books?