Isn't cutting out the tongues of the little birds just unnecessary cruelty?

[Narsil4]

9 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But what does the removing of tongues actually achieve?

I suspect it has something to do with the story about the burning member. 
Perhaps tongues can be used in a similar ritual. 

Which may suggest Varys public attitude against magic is a lie. 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Wonder what he does with them after they get too old to be a little bird.

I have to wonder if they end up on Euron's ship. 

[Springwatch]

7 hours ago, Narsil4 said:

I suspect it has something to do with the story about the burning member. 
Perhaps tongues can be used in a similar ritual. 

Which may suggest Varys public attitude against magic is a lie.

I like this idea. Finding a 'realistic' solution is more difficult.

16 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But what does the removing of tongues actually achieve? The LBs can write after all. Does Varys really not keep in mind, that who ever will capture and question them, will think as far as putting a pen and a piece of paper in front of them? Is cutting out their tongue not just unnecessary cruelty?

I suppose they might not have been taught to write in Common. But they are young and clever - if they resent their treatment as much as Varys did, they are likely to teach themselves, or willingly learn from Varys' enemies.

12 hours ago, Lollygag said:

"I've told the khal he ought to make for Meereen," Ser Jorah said. "They'll pay a better price than he'd get from a slaving caravan. Illyrio writes that they had a plague last year, so the brothels are paying double for healthy young girls, and triple for boys under ten. If enough children survive the journey, the gold will buy us all the ships we need, and hire men to sail them."

Perhaps. In that case, it sounds like Illyrio is planning to buy from Meereen, not from slaving caravans. There could be reasons for that, but the distance is a problem for him.

[must needs the rushes]

Am I the only one who read "kept their tongues" as a figure of speech for secrecy?

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

"Huge stones had been set into the curving walls as steps, circling down and down, dark as the steps to hell that Old Nan used to tell them of. And something was coming up out of the darkness, out of the bowels of the earth …"

A Game of Thrones, Arya 3

First of all isn't that a straight-up devil comparison?

I always couldn't help, but really like Varys: his cleverness, his creativity, whatever he did, I always tended to believe, that he truly had first and foremost the benefit of the 7 kingdoms in mind (which sets him apart from LF, who first and foremost always has LF's benefit in mind) and I can help, but feel absolutely devastated for him, because of his horrible back-story. (It's very interesting to see how different characters react to childhood trauma/abuse in their own unique ways)

But the more I reread him, the more I am reminded of how properly evil he is. Varys speaks almost gently about his LBs. You almost get the impression, he loves those poor children like his own, provides them with a job and takes care of them (yeah, he manages to fool me with his charms and gentle ways  )... until you remember, what he really does to them and suddenly he appears more like the Pied Piper. 

But what does the removing of tongues actually achieve? The LBs can write after all. Does Varys really not keep in mind, that who ever will capture and question them, will think as far as putting a pen and a piece of paper in front of them? Is cutting out their tongue not just unnecessary cruelty?

I still can't fathom the logistics of this little operation. Varys wants another 50 birds, IIRC, so that would suggest that his current stable counts into the hundreds. Where does he keep them all? Who oversees them? Where do they eat, sleep, shit . . .? I'm assuming they are kept under lock and key at all times except when they are crawling around the secret passages, otherwise someone would notice the abundance of tongueless children running around the Red Keep.

Is this their fate? Living in the dark, damp bowels of the castle except to prowl the walls listening for secrets? And not a single one has ever gotten fed up with this and ratted out the whole scheme? I can only guess that the wine of courage is used liberally on the little birds, otherwise their would be no way to keep the lid on all of this. Even still, it seems like an extremely unwieldy setup.

 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

I still can't fathom the logistics of this little operation. Varys wants another 50 birds, IIRC, so that would suggest that his current stable counts into the hundreds. Where does he keep them all? Who oversees them? Where do they eat, sleep, shit . . .? I'm assuming they are kept under lock and key at all times except when they are crawling around the secret passages, otherwise someone would notice the abundance of tongueless children running around the Red Keep.

There seems to be some sort of 'hidden command center' in the bowels of the Red Keep. Remember the well Varys and Illyrio are exiting when Arya overhears them. That would be the place where Varys actually lives - and where the little birds live, too. It would be this place where he retreated after he had to go underground.

If you consider the size of the Red Keep and keep in mind mind that Varys might be ambitious enough to man all the listening posts 24/7 then hundreds of little birds definitely sound and feel right. The Red Keep is a very large castle, and one assumes that vast halls like the throne room have multiple listening posts.

The ladder Tyrion ascends in the Tower of the Hand indicates that there are listening posts there in every level and adjacent to every room. Maegor wanted to keep and eye and ear on everyone.

And as I said, I expect there to be a staff of older little birds to oversee and train the younger ones.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Is this their fate? Living in the dark, damp bowels of the castle except to prowl the walls listening for secrets? And not a single one has ever gotten fed up with this and ratted out the whole scheme? I can only guess that the wine of courage is used liberally on the little birds, otherwise their would be no way to keep the lid on all of this. Even still, it seems like an extremely unwieldy setup.

What we see of them in the Epilogue indicates they do live in the dark all the time.

George has a strange fascination (and unrealistic concepts) of humanity living in caves (as is evident in 'Dark, Dark Were the Tunnels' and 'In the House of the Worm') so I guess this is another variation of that.

And yes, no little bird apparently ever told anybody important anything about Varys' ultimate plans (which some of them must know). However, there existence as such is definitely no secret. Aerys II and his court must have known about them, and since Pycelle is still around Robert and many of his courtiers must have known, too.

Why on earth nobody in the Baratheon-Lannister administration started to actually investigate the very castle they are living in I don't understand. I'd never live in a place where you are spied at and potentially assassinated from behind the walls - and if I had to, I'd start to properly investigate and figure out where the secret passageways and entrances were.

I mean, Cersei doesn't even seem to know that she and Tommen are safe in Maegor's because there are no listening posts and tunnels there aside from Maegor's escape way in the king's residence which is unconnected to all the other tunnels - she might not even know that this is there, although it could also turn out her means of escape if she flees the city.

[Hugorfonics]

15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't know but I would bet @Lord Varys does

Im not taking that bet, lol, hes good

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Bloodraven seems to have been both Hand of the King and Master of Whisperers during the reign of Aerys I - and I assume, although that hasn't been confirmed yet, that Bloodraven also served as Master of Whisperers under Daeron II (we know from Egg who served as a page at court before joining Dunk that Baelor and Bloodraven held different views how to deal with rebels at council, confirming at least that Bloodraven was part of Daeron II's Small Council, although we don't know what office he had, if any - some lords/men sat and sit on the council without having formal offices).

But we have to keep in mind that Master of Whisperers seems to have been the Small Council office that was formally established the latest. Under Maegor, when Tyanna's moniker 'Mistress of Whispers' sort established the later official name, Tyanna ran Maegor's spy network as his queen, acting both in a more informal and in a much more powerful capacity.

Jaehaerys I didn't have a Master of Whisperers during his early reign, relying both on Rego Draz, his Master of Coin, and Albin Massey, his Master of Laws, for underhanded and intelligence stuff. This may have changed later, but we don't know. The first Master of Whisperers going by that name is Larys Strong during the reigns of Viserys I and Aegon II, and, informally, Mysaria during the reign of Rhaenyra. After Larys' death the office remained vacant during the Regency.

All this could mean that not all Targaryen kings after the Dance did have Master of Whisperers, Daeron II included.

Although the TWoIaF revelation that Bloodraven may have played a role in informing Daeron II that Daemon was up to something bad could indicate that Bloodraven was named Master of Whisperers after that, possibly along with getting Dark Sister - which he does have on the Redgrass Field. And for his service there he most definitely should have been rewarded by his king big time.

One might also wonder whether Maekar fired Bloodraven as Master of Whisperers while keeping him as Hand, abandoning Aerys I and Bloodraven's policy of ruling through fear and surveillance and taking a more liberal approach. But he could just as well have continued in both offices until Aegon V arrested him.

Your good. Thanks.

Its such a strange position, almost like gestapoish, just even more in the shadows. Like that report Tyrion got about multiple toasts to the multiple kings. Very absolute. 

So presumably KL didnt need to be as absolute when dragons were flying about but thats contrary to the text because Strong was around for dragons.

I mean in KL, the walls have had ears since Maegor so its possible some kings didnt have access to the tunnels or they just didnt want to flaunt their secret police in the SC. Its a shame Strong wasnt questioned about the specifics of his whereabouts, but thats Stark, shoot first ask questions later.

Brynden we can (maybe) assume he used magic to learn the tunnels, thats what smallfolk think. I have no idea how Varys found out though. What do you think, he learned the blueprints to Redkeep first or applied to Aerys first?

Also do we know before Varys? Was the Spider Aerys' first? What about papa Jahareys?

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but having them is better than not having them - especially if you are doing what Varys and Illyrio are doing.

Word. But prosecution 101, paper trail. Its a risky buisness.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, he does. But that would mean you spend a considerable time with a mute and sort of gain his/her trust. Wex wants to talk, he does not not want to talk. And it would be rather difficult to have a little bird talk about, say, Aegon or Varys' true plans, etc. if the people questioning didn't even suspect Varys had some secret agenda or had some hidden dragons up his sleeve.

Thus he can obscure and obfuscate things this way pretty well, all things considered..

Does Wex want to talk? Why? What does he care about Stark children or Ironborn honor?

If your theories are correct then these little children who specialize in acrobatics and literature are now circumnavigating Westeros and lounging in Inns like Bronn of Blackwater. 

Its rather far fetched. Spies get tortured, and Birds are supposed to be a well kept secret. Furthermore, its a dangerous world out there, specifically for mute kids

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This is why one assumes he uses his birds for that, too - when they have grown older. Considering the size of the operations of the Master of Whisperers - he runs a sort of secret service agency for a Realm spanning nearly an entire continent! - he cannot do all that work by himself. Littlefinger manages the finances of the Crown yet he, too, has a staff in the treasury, we even know some of the offices by name.

We shouldnt assume that the majority of Varys' spies are Birds (outside the Redkeep). Like Quyburn was introduced to many of the Spider's spies. The normal spies probably have some hierarchy to them, where the bosses probably gather intel and give them to Varys. However with Birds, im of the belief that Varys reads their full report

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The endgame behind that. Varys implies that Aegon is just a means to an end - to give Westeros lasting stability and prosperity by creating a really great king. But if that king were to suck ... well, then the ultimate endgame remains, and would have to achieved by other means.

Varys may have insinuated that but as PeachKing so elegantly stated, bullshit.

By all accounts he made Aerys mad, he stood silent as they murdered Jon and Robert and has created or attempted to create chaos in the politics of the 7 kingdoms, specifically KL. Varys' goal is not shangri la. And even if it was, why should the Birda care?

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There seems to be some sort of 'hidden command center' in the bowels of the Red Keep. Remember the well Varys and Illyrio are exiting when Arya overhears them. That would be the place where Varys actually lives - and where the little birds live, too. It would be this place where he retreated after he had to go underground.

If you consider the size of the Red Keep and keep in mind mind that Varys might be ambitious enough to man all the listening posts 24/7 then hundreds of little birds definitely sound and feel right. The Red Keep is a very large castle, and one assumes that vast halls like the throne room have multiple listening posts.

The ladder Tyrion ascends in the Tower of the Hand indicates that there are listening posts there in every level and adjacent to every room. Maegor wanted to keep and eye and ear on everyone.

And as I said, I expect there to be a staff of older little birds to oversee and train the younger ones.

What we see of them in the Epilogue indicates they do live in the dark all the time.

George has a strange fascination (and unrealistic concepts) of humanity living in caves (as is evident in 'Dark, Dark Were the Tunnels' and 'In the House of the Worm') so I guess this is another variation of that.

And yes, no little bird apparently ever told anybody important anything about Varys' ultimate plans (which some of them must know). However, there existence as such is definitely no secret. Aerys II and his court must have known about them, and since Pycelle is still around Robert and many of his courtiers must have known, too.

Why on earth nobody in the Baratheon-Lannister administration started to actually investigate the very castle they are living in I don't understand. I'd never live in a place where you are spied at and potentially assassinated from behind the walls - and if I had to, I'd start to properly investigate and figure out where the secret passageways and entrances were.

I mean, Cersei doesn't even seem to know that she and Tommen are safe in Maegor's because there are no listening posts and tunnels there aside from Maegor's escape way in the king's residence which is unconnected to all the other tunnels - she might not even know that this is there, although it could also turn out her means of escape if she flees the city.

It just seems very unwieldy -- not the kind of thing that could realistically be kept secret for very long, even in the Red Keep. The wine of courage would definitely have to be a big part of this.

But the one thing that might belie some of this is the idea to the children are among the many servants in and about the Red Keep. The girl in Pycelle's chambers, for one. If it's the same one that served Ned in GoT, Tyrion in CoK and then Kevan in DwD, then there could be others living openly throughout the RK, no need for any underground barracks. Of course, we would have to wonder why no one is bothered by these tongueless children serving their meals and keeping their rooms -- because it does appear that Pycelle's girl has no tongue -- but maybe the nobility in the RK are so arrogant that they don't care why their child-servants remain quiet, as long as they do their jobs? Maybe Varys has cooked up a story about rescuing them from bondage? But then everybody would know exactly who his little birds were. Like I said, it's all very unwieldy.

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

the nobility in the RK are so arrogant that they don't care why their child-servants remain quiet, as long as they do their jobs?

I can totally see that

[Alexis-something-Rose]

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I still can't fathom the logistics of this little operation. Varys wants another 50 birds, IIRC, so that would suggest that his current stable counts into the hundreds. Where does he keep them all? Who oversees them? Where do they eat, sleep, shit . . .? I'm assuming they are kept under lock and key at all times except when they are crawling around the secret passages, otherwise someone would notice the abundance of tongueless children running around the Red Keep.

I've been wondering if these children are all in King's Landing.

And we don't know why he needs 50 more little birds. Is it because some of those kids have aged out of his "program" or is it because he needs to dispatch his veterans elsewhere?

This exchange between Varys and Tyrion gives me pause;

Varys caught up with him as he was crossing the yard. "My lord," he said, a little out of breath. "You had best read this at once." He held out a parchment in a soft white hand. "A report from the north."
"Good news or bad?" Tyrion asked.
"That is not for me to judge."
Tyrion unrolled the parchment. He had to squint to read the words in the torchlit yard. "Gods be good," he said softly. "Both of them?"
"I fear so, my lord. It is so sad. So grievous sad. And them so young and innocent."
Tyrion remembered how the wolves had howled when the Stark boy had fallen. Are they howling now, I wonder? "Have you told anyone else?" he asked.
"Not as yet, though of course I must." (Tyrion XII, ACoK 54)

So the news did not come by raven. Varys calls it a report from the north, and when Tyrion has the parchment, there is no mention of a seal on it. And when Tyrion questions Varys if Cersei knows, Varys says no, but that he will have to tell her.

And this news seems to reach King's Landing at night while the raven bearing the news of Bran and Rickon's "deaths" arrives at Riverrun the following chapter, in the morning. 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its such a strange position, almost like gestapoish, just even more in the shadows. Like that report Tyrion got about multiple toasts to the multiple kings. Very absolute.

Well, that was capital/castle talk. There the surveillance is very good.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So presumably KL didnt need to be as absolute when dragons were flying about but thats contrary to the text because Strong was around for dragons.

I mean in KL, the walls have had ears since Maegor so its possible some kings didnt have access to the tunnels or they just didnt want to flaunt their secret police in the SC. Its a shame Strong wasnt questioned about the specifics of his whereabouts, but thats Stark, shoot first ask questions later.

I expect there to have been some more enlightened kings who didn't think they needed a secret police/Master of Whisperers and others who did. But since the need for the office under Jaehaerys I and Viserys I would have been very small it is a pity we don't know whether Strong was the first proper Master of Whisperers, whether Viserys I had another man filling the office, or whether it was first created back in the later years of Jaehaerys I.

If Larys was the first proper Master of Whisperers I could actually see Lord Lyonel Strong as Hand convincing the king to create the office and appoint his son to increase Strong influence at court. We can safely assume that until 120 AC Lord Lyonel Strong was as determined to ensure the Strongs dominate the court as Otto and Alicent were before and after. We just don't know much about that because Viserys I's reign isn't covered in a lot of detail.

We have to wait and see whether kings like Aegon III, Baelor the Blessed, Viserys II, and Aegon V did employ Masters of Whisperer. The Unworthy most likely did, and the Young Dragon could have needed them for his Dornish War (as could Aegon III to deal with the various challenges to his rule, and Aegon V, too).

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Brynden we can (maybe) assume he used magic to learn the tunnels, thats what smallfolk think. I have no idea how Varys found out though. What do you think, he learned the blueprints to Redkeep first or applied to Aerys first?

Oh, I imagine that all the Masters of Whisperers who had knowledge of the tunnels received that knowledge from the Targaryens. Maegor killed everyone who was involved in the planning and building process of the Red Keep, but there must have been maps. He himself couldn't have possibly memorized all the tunnels and entrances - and how could he have used them effectively/at all if he didn't share some of them with his operatives?

And from Varys we know he has actually official access to the tunnels considering he has keys which unlock the various doors in the bowels of the castle. That's not the eunuch going exploring (like Littlefinger did finding the passage way down in the city he likes to use) that's him making use of what the Targaryens knew about their own castle.

This doesn't mean that by the days of Aerys II everything is still known about all the tunnels - some may have been rarely used or forgotten in the past, but with official maps and his birds exploring Varys likely made use of nearly the entire tunnel system that had been designed to spy on people. But we know that some things in the Tower of the Hand were only recovered (like some corpses and some coin were only recovered while Cersei had the structure demolished).

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Also do we know before Varys? Was the Spider Aerys' first? What about papa Jahareys?

That's a good question. Considering Aerys II only grew paranoid and interested in rumors later during his reign he may not have had a Master of Whisperers at first. If Jaehaerys II had one one expect it would have been a guy from Aegon V's old guard - who was then dismissed/retired when Aerys II took over and brought in his young guard with Tywin.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Does Wex want to talk? Why? What does he care about Stark children or Ironborn honor?

I actually expect him to have been sent to the Manderlys by Osha to tell them where Rickon went. After all, chances are about zero that they would have captured him and indentified him as an Ironborn. After all, he is a mute boy - essentially nobody would give him a second glance. And he would have to be an utter retard to run around with the Greyjoy kraken on his clothes. Once he changed his clothes nobody should have been able to recognize him.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

If your theories are correct then these little children who specialize in acrobatics and literature are now circumnavigating Westeros and lounging in Inns like Bronn of Blackwater.

I expect those then to be (young) adult, not children. And while they would not really completely cut their ties with Varys, one imagines that they would, for the most part, just live some sort of normal life.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

We shouldnt assume that the majority of Varys' spies are Birds (outside the Redkeep). Like Quyburn was introduced to many of the Spider's spies. The normal spies probably have some hierarchy to them, where the bosses probably gather intel and give them to Varys. However with Birds, im of the belief that Varys reads their full report

Qyburn is merely contacted by the run-of-the-mill guys who want to play informer. People who sell stories and news and rumors in exchange for coin. That would be sort of the official information business, not the more specialized kind which involves that the spy master actually infiltrate a castle or court.

For instance, Qyburn gets news from Dorne, but Varys likely has some people directly in Sunspear which could shed more light on the Arianne situation Cersei has only gets very garbled reports.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Varys may have insinuated that but as PeachKing so elegantly stated, bullshit.

By all accounts he made Aerys mad, he stood silent as they murdered Jon and Robert and has created or attempted to create chaos in the politics of the 7 kingdoms, specifically KL. Varys' goal is not shangri la. And even if it was, why should the Birda care?

If Varys actually fueled the madness of the Mad King - which we don't have proper confirmation at this point - then this doesn't mean his goals didn't change after the Rebellion. He could have regretted what he did before and come up with the Aegon plan to prevent in the future that things like what he tried to pull off before with whatever plan he had when undermined Aerys II (if he did that) cannot happen again.

The little birds likely care because they are indoctrinated to care. They are told what to believe and they are at an age when they cannot really think for themselves.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

It just seems very unwieldy -- not the kind of thing that could realistically be kept secret for very long, even in the Red Keep. The wine of courage would definitely have to be a big part of this.

That could be, although we have at this point no evidence for that.

Overall, though, I agree that the system is unrealistic if you try to imagine how it works in detail. George seems to like this concept of people living in walls and caves, so he used that in ASoIaF, too.

But then, we also don't know how the court or the government of the Realm properly work without a decent administration and bureaucracy, so that's that.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

But the one thing that might belie some of this is the idea to the children are among the many servants in and about the Red Keep. The girl in Pycelle's chambers, for one. If it's the same one that served Ned in GoT, Tyrion in CoK and then Kevan in DwD, then there could be others living openly throughout the RK, no need for any underground barracks. Of course, we would have to wonder why no one is bothered by these tongueless children serving their meals and keeping their rooms -- because it does appear that Pycelle's girl has no tongue -- but maybe the nobility in the RK are so arrogant that they don't care why their child-servants remain quiet, as long as they do their jobs? Maybe Varys has cooked up a story about rescuing them from bondage? But then everybody would know exactly who his little birds were. Like I said, it's all very unwieldy.

There certainly could be some of the birds also working as servants in the castle, but the core birds definitely are not. Those are those who come out with Varys in the Epilogue and they are visibly apart from other humans, being extraordinary pale which makes it clear they live constantly underground somewhere, away from the light of day.

As I laid out somewhere above it is odd that the girl bringing Pycelle's message to Kevan could be mute considering a girl simply carrying a message is not likely to get inside Maegor's, especially if she chances on guardsmen who cannot read themselves and could thus not realize that the girl was carrying a message by the Grand Maester which was supposed to be handed over to the Lord Regent.

That would mean that there either have to be some birds who can talk - or mute serving children are indeed a common sight in the Red Keep and the one going to Kevan was a well-known serving girl in service of Grand Maester Pycelle, meaning that nobody would ever think to prevent her from entering Maegor's Holdfast in service of the Grand Maester.

5 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

So the news did not come by raven. Varys calls it a report from the north, and when Tyrion has the parchment, there is no mention of a seal on it. And when Tyrion questions Varys if Cersei knows, Varys says no, but that he will have to tell her.

And this news seems to reach King's Landing at night while the raven bearing the news of Bran and Rickon's "deaths" arrives at Riverrun the following chapter, in the morning. 

Varys must have his own raven system - which is why I brought up the idea above that some former little birds are novices and acolytes at the Citadel.

We also have Varys knowing first of everyone in KL about Tyrion's abduction, so he really must have the means to receive information from all across the Realm (and from beyond) very fast. Considering the fastest way to pass messages is by raven/bird, we can be very sure he must use the same methods without anyone realizing this.

Else Pycelle would run the spy network, not Varys.

And one can perhaps imagine that gathering information for the king could have been part of the job of the Grand Maester (and other maesters) in times where the king didn't officially employ a Master of Whisperers.

[Lollygag]

16 hours ago, Narsil4 said:

I suspect it has something to do with the story about the burning member. 
Perhaps tongues can be used in a similar ritual. 

Which may suggest Varys public attitude against magic is a lie. 

I have to wonder if they end up on Euron's ship. 

Never picked up on this before. Cutting their tongues may serve two purposes. Also, if Varys is truly cut (I have major doubts), then his turning around doing a different but no less devastating cutting to children is especially vile as he knows what it's like.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys must have his own raven system - which is why I brought up the idea above that some former little birds are novices and acolytes at the Citadel.

We also have Varys knowing first of everyone in KL about Tyrion's abduction, so he really must have the means to receive information from all across the Realm (and from beyond) very fast. Considering the fastest way to pass messages is by raven/bird, we can be very sure he must use the same methods without anyone realizing this.

I'm not disagreeing with the notion that Varys might have his own raven/bird system, but the Citadel is very far removed from the inn at the crossroads and Winterfell. He must have informants near those places. 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I'm not disagreeing with the notion that Varys might have his own raven/bird system, but the Citadel is very far removed from the inn at the crossroads and Winterfell. He must have informants near those places. 

Oh, I should have elaborated - I also think those birds eventually leave the Citadel and then take up ravencraft and stuff at various place where Varys needs a fast transportation system for messages. Else he could not stay ahead of the others to the degree that he does.

For shorter distances he could also work with doves.

[Jeeves]

It is maiming but it is not clear who is doing the deed.  Maybe Varys was placing an order for tongue-less children.  So yeah, he is somewhat complicit in this.  But he supports Aegon VI and in his mind that is justified.  This is not too far from cannibal Manderly's nefarious deeds in the last book to restore the Starks.  Varys is no angel but he is not the monster that Wayman is.  Aegon VI might not have a problem with Varys doing this but Daenerys would object to these methods. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

18 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im not taking that bet, lol, hes good

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

14 hours ago, Jeeves said:

It is maiming but it is not clear who is doing the deed.  Maybe Varys was placing an order for tongue-less children.  So yeah, he is somewhat complicit in this.  But he supports Aegon VI and in his mind that is justified.  This is not too far from cannibal Manderly's nefarious deeds in the last book to restore the Starks.  Varys is no angel but he is not the monster that Wayman is.  Aegon VI might not have a problem with Varys doing this but Daenerys would object to these methods.

My take is that Varys is placing the order for tongueless children so yeah it makes him complicit. 

How did Manderly's Frey Pie do anything to restore the Starks? LOL 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

15 hours ago, Jeeves said:

It is maiming but it is not clear who is doing the deed.  Maybe Varys was placing an order for tongue-less children.  So yeah, he is somewhat complicit in this.  But he supports Aegon VI and in his mind that is justified.  This is not too far from cannibal Manderly's nefarious deeds in the last book to restore the Starks.  Varys is no angel but he is not the monster that Wayman is.  Aegon VI might not have a problem with Varys doing this but Daenerys would object to these methods. 

How is what Manderly did worse than what Varys does? Sure, vengeance isn't great, but we're at least told that a man has a right to it. At least, he had the decency not to kill them under his roof and the odds that they died with their swords in hand are good enough.

Varys not being the one to cut out the tongues of 50 children does not absolve him of the deed. And then he turns them into little assassins when he has them kill Kevan Lannister.

And how do you know that Aegon would not object to the treatment of the little birds? We're told he lived among the smallfolk, so if anything, he too might object to what's been done especially since he was taught that he must put the people first. And what are the little birds if not that? And it's not like Varys and Illyrio are sharing the information with anyone that they mutilate these children to begin with. And sure Dany would object, but she didn't even ask how old the daughters of the wineshop owner where the Unsullied were poisoned were when she changed her mind and decided to allow the Shavepate to torture him and his daughters. Dany is as grey as every other main character in the series.

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

How is what Manderly did worse than what Varys does? Sure, vengeance isn't great, but we're at least told that a man has a right to it. At least, he had the decency not to kill them under his roof and the odds that they died with their swords in hand are good enough.

Manderly just killed people who did what they were told. They did not come up with the Red Wedding plan, nor did they share the values of the Northmen regarding guest right (it isn't as important in the south than it is in the North). He is collectively punishing a family (and presumably also their allies and retainers) for a single ugly action. That is going to perpetuate war, not end it.

What is done to the little birds is definitely ugly - but by comparison I'd say it is far less worse than what the nobility and kings do to their smallfolk and subjects on a regular basis. They draft men into war whenever they please, they destroy important resources in their petty wars, they torture and butcher civilians just to terrify the enemy, they steal their food, etc.

Varys' cruelty seems to be the means to a better end whereas the standard cruelty of the nobility is just pointless, done to satisfy their presumptions of honor and vengeance.

13 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And how do you know that Aegon would not object to the treatment of the little birds? We're told he lived among the smallfolk, so if anything, he too might object to what's been done especially since he was taught that he must put the people first. And what are the little birds if not that? And it's not like Varys and Illyrio are sharing the information with anyone that they mutilate these children to begin with. And sure Dany would object, but she didn't even ask how old the daughters of the wineshop owner where the Unsullied were poisoned were when she changed her mind and decided to allow the Shavepate to torture him and his daughters. Dany is as grey as every other main character in the series.

It is interesting what Aegon would say about the little birds system - if he ever learns about that. But neither he nor Daenerys (who in Meereen is far too lenient with the slavers and their allies - she is her ancestor King Aenys there, always too eager to please, she should have taken a few pages out of Maegor's book there) are going to make that particular injustice their top priority once they take the Iron Throne.

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I've been wondering if these children are all in King's Landing.

And we don't know why he needs 50 more little birds. Is it because some of those kids have aged out of his "program" or is it because he needs to dispatch his veterans elsewhere?

This exchange between Varys and Tyrion gives me pause;

Varys caught up with him as he was crossing the yard. "My lord," he said, a little out of breath. "You had best read this at once." He held out a parchment in a soft white hand. "A report from the north."
"Good news or bad?" Tyrion asked.
"That is not for me to judge."
Tyrion unrolled the parchment. He had to squint to read the words in the torchlit yard. "Gods be good," he said softly. "Both of them?"
"I fear so, my lord. It is so sad. So grievous sad. And them so young and innocent."
Tyrion remembered how the wolves had howled when the Stark boy had fallen. Are they howling now, I wonder? "Have you told anyone else?" he asked.
"Not as yet, though of course I must." (Tyrion XII, ACoK 54)

So the news did not come by raven. Varys calls it a report from the north, and when Tyrion has the parchment, there is no mention of a seal on it. And when Tyrion questions Varys if Cersei knows, Varys says no, but that he will have to tell her.

And this news seems to reach King's Landing at night while the raven bearing the news of Bran and Rickon's "deaths" arrives at Riverrun the following chapter, in the morning. 

True, but these deaths were not a secret in Winterfell, so it would not require a little bird to acquire it -- just a crack communications infrastructure to get it to Varys before the ravens arrive in KL. If Varys had info that the bodies were not Bran and Rickon, that would be something to consider.

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

As I laid out somewhere above it is odd that the girl bringing Pycelle's message to Kevan could be mute considering a girl simply carrying a message is not likely to get inside Maegor's, especially if she chances on guardsmen who cannot read themselves and could thus not realize that the girl was carrying a message by the Grand Maester which was supposed to be handed over to the Lord Regent.

I believe it was a boy who brought the message summoning Kevan to Pycelle, and it is unclear whether he spoke this request or handed him a note. I don't recall him speaking on the page. The girl I was referring to was the one in Pycelle's chamber, who may or may not be the same girl that greeted Ned and Tyrion. She also doesn't speak.

Here's a thought: sometimes it's hard to distinguish boys from girls at that age, particularly when they are bundled up in furs. Perhaps all the little birds are girls and many are handed over to the silent sisters when they reach a certain age?