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Black Crow

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Can't answer for Brad Stark, but I feel myself that he could be a bit of a red herring. GRRM has responded in the past to his non-appearance by saying that he knows too much. This has traditionally been interpreted by the faithful in another place to mean that he will one day appear with his affydavey and sundry other proofs to proclaim the truth of R+L=J and Jon's claim to be the rightful lawful king of all Westeros. 

I find this scenario difficult to believe.

Even if Mr Reed is already striding the pages under some disguise, a story as complex as this one requires a solider resolution, whether that resolution lies in a connection to the Green Men [who GRRM has also promised will appear] or the Musgrave Ritual which is connects House Stark to Winterfell, its crypts and Winter itself. Howland Reed may have a part to play in this, but I feel that an expectation he may be the key to it all, is misplaced.

I second the red herring suspicion.

Howland Reed = howl and read, i.e. be patient and carry on?

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On 12/28/2019 at 7:59 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Just curious..... Do you feel the same way about Howland Reed? 

Not at all.   Howland exists because he played a role in Robert's Rebellion.   He is off camera because he knows things the reader will eventually discover, and his part going forward may be small. 

I don't think Rickon was intentionally off camera as much as he was.  GRRM is struggling with too many characters and deadlines and Rickon has been neglected since he isn't important.  GRRM has told us Howland is intentionally off camera. 

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I must say. I really do enjoy the new reactions feature on this forum. Makes it much easier to express a quick sentiment without it turning into an argument. :D

I just need to say that one thing that brings me hope is that for the most part you all are as consistent as ever. Well, at least in terms of your personalities and reactions to things. lol.

I think that both @Black Crow and @Brad Stark make valid points. I definitely believe that the possibility exists that Rickon is nothing but a “Shaggy Dog” story line. I mean yeah, even his wolf is named that way. Plus he has spent a lot of time offscreen. But.... I think that there are two very important things that we are forgetting when we look at things that way.

First off, Isn’t it a little too obvious for GRRM to actually telegraph his intentions on a character quite that directly? Usually he makes us work a little harder to come to conclusions. I think that there is definitely something behind how GRRM has named each of the wolves. That said, is it possible that these names aren’t necessarily signifying who their owners are, but maybe rather what it is that they need to sacrifice? (Just an idea off the top of my head.)

Second off B) .... We need to remember that GRRM originally intended on having a 5 year gap in the story. It seems to me that someone as young as Rickon would be one of the characters most highly impacted by its absence purely due to his age. Seriously, how much is there that we can expect a five year old to realistically do? Could that be the reason for his absence? 

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6 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Not at all.   Howland exists because he played a role in Robert's Rebellion.   He is off camera because he knows things the reader will eventually discover, and his part going forward may be small. 

I agree. What's easily overlooked is that there's a difference between knowing and telling. 

Howland Reed may indeed know too much for his own good, and for that reason may be kept in the background, but that's very different from assuming that his eventual purpose will be to reveal all

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I agree. What's easily overlooked is that there's a difference between knowing and telling. 

Howland Reed may indeed know too much for his own good, and for that reason may be kept in the background, but that's very different from assuming that his eventual purpose will be to reveal all

Howland is the last living character from the TOJ.  I've assumed he was kept alive to reveal all, or act on knowledge only he has.

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I agree. What's easily overlooked is that there's a difference between knowing and telling. 

Howland Reed may indeed know too much for his own good, and for that reason may be kept in the background, but that's very different from assuming that his eventual purpose will be to reveal all

I have speculated that we will find out the ToJ reveal from Areo Hotah and Darkstar in the Dornish subplot but that is another tale.

i suspect that Howland is doing something that we are unaware of. He sent Meera and Jones but not himself: why? I think he may be in the isle of faces

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IMO the tower of joy and the location where Lyanna was found are two different places. I think Lyanna was found in the ruins of Whitewalls after the Battle of the Bells, but before the Battle on the Trident. I believe Maegor's Holdfast is the real tower of joy and that Ned and his men fought the Kingsguard during the Sack of Kings Landing. And lastly, I suspect that Ned sailed from Storms End after he lifted the seige to Starfall, and the reason why his fever dream places him in the red mountains Dorne is due to his guilt over the deaths of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon. Ned and his men kept the three Kingsguard occupied while Gregor and Armory scaled the tower and then gained access to the royal apartments. Seeing the red mountains of Dorne is a metaphor for the bloody remains of Elia of Dorne and her children after Ned finally gained access to the tower.

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At this point, Davos is off to seek Rickon on Skagos, if Wex (rhymes with Hex) is a reliable witness.  All we have is Bran's (?) vision of Shaggy Dog attacking a 'unicorn'.  Which would at least indicate that the direwolf is alive, if not the boy.  To my mind, Rickon is either as wild as his wolf or dead.  But I can't see Shaggy Dog allowing anyone to harm Rickon in any way.  Osha may be the only one who can have any influence on Rickon, if she is still alive.  What the Skagosi would make of Rickon and his wolf is anyone's guess.

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There are actually a lot of people still alive that fought in the Rebellion: 

Jon Connington

Mace Tyrell

Stannis Baratheon

Jaime Lannister

Gregor Clegane

Howland Reed

Roose Bolton

Wayman Manderly

This is just a short list. I'm sure there are many more. I am hoping we hear what Jon Arryn's army did while Ned and Hoster saved Robert. There must be people yet alive in the Vale that could tell their story to Sansa once they know who she is.

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4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Howland is the last living character from the TOJ.  I've assumed he was kept alive to reveal all, or act on knowledge only he has.

This is where we part. As I said earlier I can't see the simple fact of a little crannogman turning up making any difference to that aspect of the story, even if he lays a whole bag of affydaveys. We've already seen how little regarded the frog-eaters are.

The knowledge he has relates to the Green Men and the old deep magics. That's revealed by his children, but by sending them rather than tooling up in person the message is conveyed without distracting questions about what may have happened at an old tower a long time ago. He may well add to our knowledge on that in due course, but that as I said is different matter from revealing it in the first place.

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26 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

This is just a short list. I'm sure there are many more. I am hoping we hear what Jon Arryn's army did while Ned and Hoster saved Robert. There must be people yet alive in the Vale that could tell their story to Sansa once they know who she is.

Including a certain bat out of hell...  :commie:

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And think on this...Ned wasn't one to talk about his exploits. I can't see him giving a detailed description of his single combat against Arthur Dayne, which suggests there were witnesses - perhaps many. Howland wouldn't have had reason to accompany Ned all the way back to Winterfell after the war, so who told the household servants about the fight? If anything, Ned and Howland probably parted ways once they neared Greywater Watch, so if it happened in a remote location in a mountain pass there wouldn't have been anybody but Ned to tell the tale. I think a lot of people saw the fight since I believe it occurred during the Sack. People would have been astounded that Ned beat Arthur, but Ned is quick to share credit with Howland. Ned's unwillingness to take all the glory combined with his silence regarding Ashara makes me suspect that it wasn't Ned that told the story to the household.

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2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

There are actually a lot of people still alive that fought in the Rebellion: 

Jon Connington

Mace Tyrell

Stannis Baratheon

Jaime Lannister

Gregor Clegane

Howland Reed

Roose Bolton

Wayman Manderly

This is just a short list. I'm sure there are many more. I am hoping we hear what Jon Arryn's army did while Ned and Hoster saved Robert. There must be people yet alive in the Vale that could tell their story to Sansa once they know who she is.

I think Jon Con is going to be our eyes in the ground when Aegon and Dany “dance” as prophecied by Arianne’s chapters in Dance. I think his PTSD of battle of the bells is foreshadowing this

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2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

And think on this...Ned wasn't one to talk about his exploits. I can't see him giving a detailed description of his single combat against Arthur Dayne, which suggests there were witnesses - perhaps many. Howland wouldn't have had reason to accompany Ned all the way back to Winterfell after the war, so who told the household servants about the fight? If anything, Ned and Howland probably parted ways once they neared Greywater Watch, so if it happened in a remote location in a mountain pass there wouldn't have been anybody but Ned to tell the tale. I think a lot of people saw the fight since I believe it occurred during the Sack. People would have been astounded that Ned beat Arthur, but Ned is quick to share credit with Howland. Ned's unwillingness to take all the glory combined with his silence regarding Ashara makes me suspect that it wasn't Ned that told the story to the household.

I respect your view though I don’t know if I share your opinion re:location. That said, I do agree with you regarding the witnesses 

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15 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I think Jon Con is going to be our eyes in the ground when Aegon and Dany “dance” as prophecied by Arianne’s chapters in Dance. I think his PTSD of battle of the bells is foreshadowing this

The second dance of the dragons has already occurred. The whole situation with Arianne and Young Griff along with Daenerys and Quentyn is a parallel and a reversal of the Dance of the Dragons. When Rhaenyra lost the Dance of the Dragons, Aegon II fed her to his dragon Sunfyre. This was reversed with the sun's son. Not only was Quentyn set on fire, but he was consumed by dragons.

GRRMs short story The Princess and the Queen actually details the Dance of the Dragons. It features an elder daughter (Rhaenyra) fighting over the line of succession against her younger half-brother Aegon II, who initially wasn't expecting to inherit and didn't even really want it until his mother convinced him he had the better claim. Arianne and Cersei are both elder sisters concerned about their inheritance.

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2 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I think Jon Con is going to be our eyes in the ground when Aegon and Dany “dance” as prophecied by Arianne’s chapters in Dance. I think his PTSD of battle of the bells is foreshadowing this

Or he could be vector zero of the plague.

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6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

This is where we part. As I said earlier I can't see the simple fact of a little crannogman turning up making any difference to that aspect of the story, even if he lays a whole bag of affydaveys. We've already seen how little regarded the frog-eaters are.

The knowledge he has relates to the Green Men and the old deep magics. That's revealed by his children, but by sending them rather than tooling up in person the message is conveyed without distracting questions about what may have happened at an old tower a long time ago. He may well add to our knowledge on that in due course, but that as I said is different matter from revealing it in the first place.

There could be a link between the TOJ and green men.  We  aren't given a reason why Howland went to either. 

We haven't seen anything to indicate Howland is keeping secrets about the Green Men and his kids talk freely about the Greensight and Greenseers.

We have evidence John is a hidden Targ and this related to the TOJ.  Ned seems haunted and was keeping secrets before he died.   If John is a hidden Targ, there is much reason to keep this secret, both with the reader and with the other characters.  Even if you don't buy R+L, something happened there.  There was a reason the Kingsguard were there, even if the TOJ was an arbitrary location, there was a reason they were in Dorne. 

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Of all the topics to retread - I really hate J=R+L.  Everyone has a passionate argument.  Nobody has a new argument.

 

Even though we've walked and talked the TOJ almost as much, I still feel there is some room to connect what we haven't yet.

1) Why did Aerys order his Kingsguard to Dorne?  I know BC likes to think of the TOJ as the OK corral - "lets fight at yonder abandoned tower at high noon",  This doesn't fully answer the question.  We did not have Ned and Arthur and everyone just sitting around Kings Landing and agree to a duel and just happen to pick somewhere half a continent away.  They plausibly could if they were in Dorne to begin with, but they needed another reason to be in Dorne.

 

2) The most common answer is the KG was there to guard the royal heir.  This has two huge holes:

A) Aerys favored Viserys and would not have wasted disproportionate resources guarding Rheagar's son instead of himself, Rhaella , Rheagar, Viserys and Daenerys.

B If the KG were only there to guard Jon, why would there be a fight?  Even if Ned felt a right to take Lyanna and/or Jon away from his bodyguards, he wouldn't fight life-or-death against them.  

 

3) Why did Ned go to Dorne?  Presumably to get Lyanna (dead or alive) back.  But when and how did he learn Lyanna was in Dorne?  Why would go on a secret mission with a small group of trusted fighters?  At that point, it was clear Robert won or was winning - there should be no need for either secrecy or military.

 

I know BC prefers to believe Jon's 'Starkness' is more important for future events, even if he actually is a hidden Targ.  Jon being hidden Targ relating to the events of Robert's Rebellion does not contradict this.  Efforts to kill, save or keep Jon's Targness shaping past events is completely different from Jon's future - and this whole line of theories is still relevant even if Jon's only future is cremation.

 

Of course, back to where we started, I believe this is what Howland knows and why he is off camera.

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