Heresy 229 and hitting the refresh button

[Lady Dyanna]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's interesting to think that the curtain of light is something that surrounds the heart, protecting Bran from the darkness and likewise that the curtain may also exist as a magical barrier to keep darkness/winter at bay at the top of the world.  A prison devised by magic.

 I think that this is a very interesting train of thought. I really like the idea of the curtain of light as being a barrier. I mean, if you think about it, that’s what curtains and/or draperies are in real life, right? Barriers or blockers of light. Seems to me that the same might be true on Planetos as well, no? Not to mention that in order to be a barrier it must be surrounding something, right? The Heart of Darkness seems as good of a guess as any. And there is definitely magic in our story, so it stands to reason that it might show up here as well. Especially seeing as the other barrier that we have to the North, The Wall, is commonly referred to as being built with magic. 

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

 This is something only Bran can see with the third eye, looking into the mind of the enemy.  If this emanates from Winterfell and Bran is looking into the heart of Winterfell, what do you suppose the bones of the fliers impaled with ice spears implies?

Please don’t be offended when I say this... It is meant to be constructive criticism. I truly enjoy the imagination and ideas that you bring to our discussions. But if we actually want to make solid process in actually figuring this out together, then I think we need to slow down and take this all one step at a time. It seems to me our first step might actually be to continue to explore the idea of what exactly the curtain of light is. Then to look at each of these ideas one at a time to see how plausible they might be. We’ve all been through this material so many times, that I think by now we all have a tendency to jump ahead to our own favorite ideas instead of exploring what is directly in front of us. By doing this, I think we might be skipping over important pieces of the puzzle.

I guess that leads me right back to the question that @Black Crow posed....

Do we believe that The Curtain of Light is an actual physical barrier with a hard geographic location, similar to The Wall? Or do we believe that it is more figurative? 

[Melifeather]

25 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Do we believe that The Curtain of Light is an actual physical barrier with a hard geographic location, similar to Th

Since the third eye is featured, the “curtain of light” may be something akin to the “lifting the veil” through meditation. 
 

sorry. I’ll explain further later...

[LynnS]

16 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Do we believe that The Curtain of Light is an actual physical barrier with a hard geographic location, similar to The Wall? Or do we believe that it is more figurative? 

Alright, I will try and flesh this out a bit more.  I think Bran is being shown the actual geography from the dead zone and beyond the curtain of light.  I think he is able to see the magic in place as a curtain of light.  It's Mel who tells us that the adepts of her order can weave with light; although her skill is way below what Bran is being shown. 

The bones pierced with a spear of ice are also important because an attempt is made to spear Bran as well.  So we are in the presence of magic.  It's not something you could see without the third eye.

It's also Mel that tells us that her god is the god of light and love and life.   Which contradicts everything we have been shown about her god; who seems to be the god of fire and shadow and death.  She rationalizes it by saying that you can't have one without the other.  I'm guessing that the true god of light is something that her faith has appropriated from legend along with Azor Ahai.

So  I think it is true that light can imprison darkness but what is it's source.  I'm guessing that this is Bloodraven's primary function, to maintain the ancient enemy is a prison surrounded by a curtain of light and that this has been the primary purpose of a long succession of greenseers.  Those who have passed the test and avoided the icy spears.  We have asked the question many times... why have the White Walkers suddenly appeared but not in any great force and why have the dead started rising?  I'm guessing that this is because Bloodraven has nearly come to his useful end and cracks or weaknesses are appearing in the curtain of light allowing the enemy to have influence.  The seeping miasma, the creeping cold full of malice and hatred of life, has escaped in some measure allowing for the creation of WW and wights.  We don't see the full measure of this power until the ending of DwD and Jon is knifed.  Borroq has warned him that 'they' are coming fast on the heels of the wildling exodus.

The COTF are afeared that Bran has come to late.  Too late for what?  I'm guessing it was to take BR's place as the keeper of the curtain of light.

Winter has also come to Winterfell before it has arrived anywhere else.  Redriver's theory stands the test of time.  This leads to the Musgrave Ritual of sword and crown.  I have said before that the sword ice may be the sword won from the ancient enemy by the last hero.  It is a cursed thing containing the malice of it's maker and so long as there is a Stark in Winterfell, those items belong to  them.  When the sword has no master and the curtain of light fails; the magic of the sword is released.  This is why Jon must enter the crypts and claim it as his own.  He must become the King of Winter.

[Brother Seamus]

On 12/19/2019 at 2:45 AM, Black Crow said:

It is in short about the children of Winterfell. 

It's nice to see someone say this. Back a few years when I posted on this forum more often, I said the same thing: fundamentally this is a story about a family that is separated and meets with a series of disasters, the survivors mostly unaware of the fates of the others, who then go on their own journeys of adversity and survival and self-discovery, and then presumably eventually reunite to some extent, re-form their family, and overcome their tragedies and in some sense or another (I predict) prevail. The Starks, especially Bran and Arya, and to a lesser extent Jon and Sansa, are the emotional heart of the story. They are who the story is really about. 

Don't get me wrong, I also love the mythologizing, the faux-medieval world building, the mixing and matching and altering of real-world history and anthropology, the mystery/detective/suspense novel elements, and the action, but what has kept me waiting on the edge of my seat since I read all five novels in single month in 2013 is the deep need to find out what happens to Arya, Bran, Jon ,and Sansa, roughly in that order.

 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

 

The bones pierced with a spear of ice are also important because an attempt is made to spear Bran as well.  So we are in the presence of magic.  It's not something you could see without the third eye.

I'm not so sure about this bit. Rather I see it as tied to the Crow's repeated insistence that Bran needs to fly and while that need not be taken literally I've always taken those impaled on the ice to be "candidates" who were unable to fly.

[Lady Dyanna]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Alright, I will try and flesh this out a bit more.  I think Bran is being shown the actual geography from the dead zone and beyond the curtain of light.  I think he is able to see the magic in place as a curtain of light.  It's Mel who tells us that the adepts of her order can weave with light; although her skill is way below what Bran is being shown.

I can’t add very much to this part at all, as I think we are pretty much in agreement here. I‘be pretty much been considering the curtain a magical barrier in my own head canon for a while now. As there is so much talk about the CotF in ending the last Long Night, I would propose that they were the ones to put this barrier in place in order to stop, or at least contain, the cause behind the last occurrence. I also like your idea of the third eye being the thing that allows Bran to see this magical barrier, and similar to what @Melifeather is suggesting, lift this veil in order to get a peak at what might be locked behind it. 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

The bones pierced with a spear of ice are also important because an attempt is made to spear Bran as well.  So we are in the presence of magic.  It's not something you could see without the third eye.

 Although, I almost tend to wonder if the bodies pierced on the ice spires might be one of the parts that is more symbolic? I say this because the attempt to spear Bran itself was symbolic. It occurred during a coma dream while he was theoretically safe in his bed physically, even if his mind was flying over the far north. According to the 3EC these were a current danger to Bran, and since the body isn’t really capable of occupying more than one physical space at a time, it’s hard to see the danger as being physical. 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's also Mel that tells us that her god is the god of light and love and life.   Which contradicts everything we have been shown about her god; who seems to be the god of fire and shadow and death.  She rationalizes it by saying that you can't have one without the other.  I'm guessing that the true god of light is something that her faith has appropriated from legend along with Azor Ahai.

This makes sense too. She is able to recognize the idea that it is a god of dualities, but has difficulty embracing what she sees as the negative aspects of that god. The cold and the shadows. The problem being that you really can’t have one without the other. All heat and light is just as damaging as all darkness and cold. Both parts are important, and I tend to wonder if this balance might be something that both sides (ice and fire) are missing. 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

So  I think it is true that light can imprison darkness but what is it's source.  I'm guessing that this is Bloodraven's primary function, to maintain the ancient enemy is a prison surrounded by a curtain of light and that this has been the primary purpose of a long succession of greenseers. 

I think that it’s possible for magic to imprison numerous things. I wonder though... when we say curtain of light... is the curtain itself made of light? Or is that what it contains? It seems to me that we have the exact opposite thing possible occurring in the Shadowlands beyond Asshai. And, I must say that if anything in this series specifically reminds me of @Black Crow’s heart of darkness, then Asshai and its poisoned river leading into a land only ventured into by magical folk would be it.

I do wonder though, is BloodRaven responsible of the actual maintenance of this barrier? Or is it more likely that he is responsible for the knowledge behind it and the continuation of the tale as to what made it necessary in the first place? The way that we have been introduced to the weirwoods is basically as one large library. It BR truly is the last greenseer, wouldn’t it be pretty important for someone else to take over that role? Otherwise the knowledge of the trees, much of which I would imagine was never recorded elsewhere might be totally lost to mankind. The chance of repeating the mistakes of the past would have to increase astronomically when you can’t even recall what they were or why you wanted to avoid them. 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

We have asked the question many times... why have the White Walkers suddenly appeared but not in any great force and why have the dead started rising?  I'm guessing that this is because Bloodraven has nearly come to his useful end and cracks or weaknesses are appearing in the curtain of light allowing the enemy to have influence.  The seeping miasma, the creeping cold full of malice and hatred of life, has escaped in some measure allowing for the creation of WW and wights.  We don't see the full measure of this power until the ending of DwD and Jon is knifed.  Borroq has warned him that 'they' are coming fast on the heels of the wildling exodus.

This is certainly a possible explanation. I also have a second idea to put forth. Just like Dany was able to independently “rediscover” the ability to wake dragons magically, what if someone from the North was able to “rediscover” whatever magic was initially used that resulted in the long night? With or without realizing what the consequences were the last time this magic was used.... Just as Dany is unaware of the consequences when she herself dabbles in magic, both trying to bring back Drogo and wake her Dragons. She clearly didn’t realize that she would need to sacrifice Rhaego. What else did she not realize?

I guess what I’m asking is... Is it more likely that the curtain has sprung a small leak? Or that there is possibly a new source of these current winter events, just like Danny’s dragons are a new event? 
 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

The COTF are afeared that Bran has come to late.  Too late for what?  I'm guessing it was to take BR's place as the keeper of the curtain of light.

Winter has also come to Winterfell before it has arrived anywhere else.  Redriver's theory stands the test of time.  This leads to the Musgrave Ritual of sword and crown.  I have said before that the sword ice may be the sword won from the ancient enemy by the last hero.  It is a cursed thing containing the malice of it's maker and so long as there is a Stark in Winterfell, those items belong to  them.  When the sword has no master and the curtain of light fails; the magic of the sword is released.  This is why Jon must enter the crypts and claim it as his own.  He must become the King of Winter.

I am not exceptionally familiar with @redriver’s theory, other than in brief generalizations. IIRC it was related to the winter storm emanating from within the walls of Winterfell itself? Any chance you could provide a brief refresher if you are around? 

[Lady Dyanna]

50 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm not so sure about this bit. Rather I see it as tied to the Crow's repeated insistence that Bran needs to fly and while that need not be taken literally I've always taken those impaled on the ice to be "candidates" who were unable to fly.

That was how I took it for a long time as well. Now I’m not so sure. This is jumping ahead quite a bit, but I’m somewhat stumbling back into the idea that the main cause behind all of this “miasma” is man trying to use magic in order to escape the laws of nature. For example, the quest for immortality.  Is this representative of the sacrifices that were necessary in order to achieve something like this?  

[Lady Dyanna]

And welcome to Heresy @Brother Seamus! Please make yourself at home here. 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I'm not so sure about this bit. Rather I see it as tied to the Crow's repeated insistence that Bran needs to fly and while that need not be taken literally I've always taken those impaled on the ice to be "candidates" who were unable to fly.

Exactly.  It's the bones that intrigue me. It's when the bones remember that they are dead that the dead wights lose their animation.  Bones that are unlikely to be just lying on the surface that far north.  In fact, there re no bones,  what is speared is a soul.  I suspect these souls of ice represent White Walkers. 

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Exactly.  It's the bones that intrigue me. It's when the bones remember that they are dead that the dead wights lose their animation.  Bones that are unlikely to be just lying on the surface that far north.  In fact, there re no bones,  what is speared is a soul.  I suspect these souls of ice represent White Walkers. 

There's a frozen donkey wheel beneath Winterfell and Bran turned it ...

[Melifeather]

@Lady Dyanna I’ve only been practicing meditation for about two years, but I’ve explored methods and learned a little about this ancient practice. Most forms have you begin with breathing exercises, mantras, sitting in a restful position, and then closing your eyes while looking slightly upward towards the third eye. Everyone has a third eye. It’s the pineal gland in our brain. It is pinecone shaped and secretes melatonin. Lucid dreaming, astral projection, and an enhanced imagination are topics related to pineal gland activation.

Some meditation practitioners believe our true self is formless energy and that the body is it’s temporary home. The world we live in is but an illusion, a virtual reality created for our physical bodies to exist in. When our physical body dies our energy returns to the godhead outside the physical realm. The border between the two existences is separated by a veil. Meditation is the conduit to touch the source and lift the seven veils of illusion. If you ask me GRRM has borrowed and repurposed these concepts and used them for skinchangers, wargs, and greenseers as well as references to the godhead and the spirit self separating from the body. Even the Faith seems a combo of Catholicism and lifting the seven veils to achieve enlightenment.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

There's a frozen donkey wheel beneath Winterfell and Bran turned it ...

If Bran had met his end at the point of an ice spear; his body would be found in his bed at Winterfell.  Only his soul would have been captured. I'm not even sure that the enemy fought by the last hero had a body made of flesh.  He could very well be something akin to a WW and dispatched with an obsidian sword.  And like Ned, his soul returned to it's place of origin and confined there.

I do think that Redriver is correct that this battle took place at Winterfell, the place where Winter fell.  What remains behind is the enemy's sword made of ice.  And that it's the sword that is generating the cold and winter conditions emanating from Winterfell.

Obviously it will be found in the crypts next to the frozen donkey wheel. 

[Lady Dyanna]

6 hours ago, Melifeather said:

@Lady Dyanna I’ve only been practicing meditation for about two years, but I’ve explored methods and learned a little about this ancient practice. Most forms have you begin with breathing exercises, mantras, sitting in a restful position, and then closing you eyes while looking slightly upward towards the third eye. Everyone has a third eye. It’s the pineal gland in our brain. It is pinecone shaped and secretes melatonin. Lucid dreaming, astral projection, and an enhanced imagination are topics related to pineal gland activation.

Some meditation practitioners believe our true self is formless energy and that the body is it’s temporary home. The world we live in is but an illusion, a virtual reality created for our physical bodies to exist in. When our physical body dies our energy returns to the godhead outside the physical realm. The border between the two existences is separated by a veil. Meditation is the conduit to touch the source and lift the seven veils of illusion. If you ask me GRRM has borrowed and repurposed these concepts and used them for skinchangers, wargs, and greenseers as well as references to the godhead and the spirit self separating from the body. Even the Faith seems a combo of Catholicism and lifting the seven veils to achieve enlightenment.

I think that we might be closer in where we are looking at with this than either of us realize. If only because to my mind that’s kinda what everything is.... some form of energy. Even the physical has potential energy. It’s all just a matter of density. lol.

i keep getting caught on the idea that through some practice (in my own mind involving the abominations and the weirwoods trees) that the first men found a way to separate that soul, or energy from the body. Possibly in a quest for immortality. (I mean it doesn’t seem so strange when we look at the shadow babies that Melisandre gives birth to.) Once separated from its corporeal form, that soul became available for a second immortal life. These souls would be the ww, or at least able to take that form.  They just take recreate themselves from the air when a corporeal form becomes necessary. To be honest, I think that might be a large part of what the curtain of light is imprisoning... immortal souls that haven’t left the earth, but are not attached to another being/tree for a second life.  I believe that it is also possible that it imprisons the byproducts of the magic that was used to allow this to happen. I just can’t seem to figure out where to start to be able to prove it. 

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Once separated from its corporeal form, that soul became available for a second immortal life. These souls would be the ww, or at least able to take that form.  They just take recreate themselves from the air when a corporeal form becomes necessary. To be honest, I think that might be a large part of what the curtain of light is imprisoning... immortal souls that haven’t left the earth, but are not attached to another being/tree for a second life.  I believe that it is also possible that it imprisons the byproducts of the magic that was used to allow this to happen. I just can’t seem to figure out where to start to be able to prove it. 

Yes, this is what I think GRRM is implying when he says that the Others/White Walkers are another form of life and that the reader will be amazed at what they can do with ice.  I think he is referring to the second life.  In the case of white walkers, they are not reborn but the shells that hold their souls are fashioned of ice and snow and cold.  Further we are told that obsidian breaks the magic holding them together in this form.  We have been shown what happens to Varamyr's soul when his body dies and also that Ned appears as a ghost to Bran and Rickon.

I think the WWs are distinguished by the fact that they can have a second life as opposed to wights who are animated corpses without any real ability to think for themselves.  This is implies to me that the WWs were skinchangers, wargs, and greenseer candidates  in their original form.

I'm not sure that these souls have the ability in themselves to create the magic to house themselves in ice, snow, cold.  I think this is something that is done to them as a captured soul.  They are thralls of the ancient enemy according to Stannis/Mel and so I think he is responsible for the magic that gives them a corporeal form if ice.

[Brad Stark]

I always interpreted the curtain of light as an aurora borealis because Bran was looking at a physical place much farther North than seen by anyone else in the book. 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I always interpreted the curtain of light as an aurora borealis because Bran was looking at a physical place much farther North than seen by anyone else in the book. 

That's what you Muggles are meant to think.  We are talking about a world where the seasons are a generation long and where a red comet can appear in the sky. 

I'm surprised that nobody in Planetos has once mentioned seeing an aurora.  You'd think that the maesters with all their stargazing would know something about it.   Auroras in the the real world are a tourist attraction can be seen sometimes as far south from the pole as 35 degrees north.  I've seen them at latitude 42 degrees North.  The Starks and the Wildlings and the Northern folk surely would have seen them.  But nobody has ever said so. 

So I don't think this is your every day curtain of light any more than a red comet is your every day comet.

[LynnS]

How big is Planetos and how far North is Winterfell situated?

https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/2016/02/28/so-how-big-is-the-world-anyway/

https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/2016/02/28/the-size-and-extent-of-westeros/

https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/2017/01/18/geographic-map-4-the-wall-skagos/

https://atlasoficeandfireblog.wordpress.com/2017/01/25/geographic-map-5-the-north/

[Brad Stark]

Planetos is bigger than Earth.  If the North is cold due to sunlight like Earth and not just magic, it is likely no one has been near enough to either pole to see an aurora. Planetos might also have a much larger portion that is too cold to live, and a treeline farther South for those who read the links.  Whatever happened to Hardhome, as well as the other continents not extending North of the Wall, keeps people much farther from the pole than on Earth. 

[corbon]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Planetos is bigger than Earth.  If the North is cold due to sunlight like Earth and not just magic, it is likely no one has been near enough to either pole to see an aurora. Planetos might also have a much larger portion that is too cold to live, and a treeline farther South for those who read the links.  Whatever happened to Hardhome, as well as the other continents not extending North of the Wall, keeps people much farther from the pole than on Earth. 

Brad, you are breaking the unwritten rule.
Thou Shalt Not Have a practical explanation where a vague and little-evidenced magical one can be created. 

Naughty Brad! 

Having said that, as humour, I'd just like to note that I don't have an opinion either way on this specific issue. 
Its one I can't see compelling evidence for in any direction and I'm happy to simply wait for an explanation, if it becomes important, or ignore it if it never comes up again.

[Lady Dyanna]

9 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I always interpreted the curtain of light as an aurora borealis because Bran was looking at a physical place much farther North than seen by anyone else in the book. 

I’m not so sure that the ideas are mutually exclusive. At its very bare bones simplest possible explanation the Aurora Borealis is basically energy from the sun interacting with the gases in our atmosphere to make pretty colors. Yes, I realize that there are a lot more technicalities to it including solar flares and winds and a million other parts, but still it’s just energy impacting air.

In a sci-fi/fantasy series that has magical trees that can see and remember all in an immortal existence, would it really be so strange to consider the idea that a magical barrier might exert enough energy on the atmosphere to cause a reaction?

For reference: Wikipedia - Aurora

I also found an additional article that I found interesting as background reading on the cultural and historical impact of the Aurora Borealis as well as some general information.

Northern Lights Article from space.com