Heresy 229 and hitting the refresh button

[Melifeather]

Summer is able to leave the cave to hunt:

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The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. Snowflakes drifted down soundlessly to cloak the soldier pines and sentinels in white. The drifts grew so deep that they covered the entrance to the caves, leaving a white wall that Summer had to dig through whenever he went outside to join his pack and hunt. Bran did not oft range with them in those days, but some nights he watched them from above.

Wights should have just as much difficulty moving in snow as humans, and if they are buried under snow deep enough to cover the entrance to the cave, the Scooby Gang might be able to leave if they can manage to walk on top of the snow. They would need to fashion some type of snowshoe and leave during the day. I think the main reason the gang doesn't try to leave is because of the heavy snow. It would be suicide to try and travel in that snowstorm. They are stuck there until Spring.

[alienarea]

54 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

And certainly the vision of worms is intended to imply something is rotten, deadly, or at the very least, unappealing. 

The plot?

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Heart of Darkness isn't the only work of fiction that he's drawn inspiration from and even though some readers recognize many of the works, they are not entirely plagiarism. I don't think we can be certain that he will copy Heart of Darkness so closely. He'll put his own spin on it.

Ordinarily, yes, but what's so interesting is just how closely GRRM is following it. There really isn't a lot of room for a different spin.

[Melifeather]

19 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Ordinarily, yes, but what's so interesting is just how closely GRRM is following it. There really isn't a lot of room for a different spin.

Well, Kurtz wasn’t plugged into a tree nor had the ability to see the past, present, or future. Bloodraven didn’t try to discourage Bran from finding him. On the contrary he watched for him and actively recruited him. Marlow didn’t become Kurtz’s apprentice nor lose the use of his legs, and he never received flying instructions from a 3EC in his dreams. He doesn’t have the ability to see his family in multiple places at the same time. I doubt Bran will remove Bloodraven from the cave and return him to civilization, but Bloodraven probably will cease communication and become one with the weirwoods. 

[Melifeather]

IMO it sounds like a similar plot, but with twists. Bloodraven and Bran are mummers playing parts in the production of the Heart of Darkness.

Kurtz had the steamboat attacked with the hope of turning Marlowe away, while Bloodraven wanted Bran to come. Kurtz plans to exterminate the “savages” so he can continue collecting ivory,  while Leaf makes it sound like they hope to minimize a mass extinction.

[LynnS]

29 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Kurtz had the steamboat attacked with the hope of turning Marlowe away, while Bloodraven wanted Bran to come. Kurtz plans to exterminate the “savages” so he can continue collecting ivory,  while Leaf makes it sound like they hope to minimize a mass extinction.

An inversion, wouldn't you say?  LOL.  Although, Kurtz isn't successful in driving Marlow away.  I haven't read part III yet, but I'm interested in Marlow's interaction with Kurtz.

[Melifeather]

24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

An inversion, wouldn't you say?  LOL.  Although, Kurtz isn't successful in driving Marlow away.  I haven't read part III yet, but I'm interested in Marlow's interaction with Kurtz.

Yes, I would say it’s the same story, but inverted. 
 

I hate to spoil things for you, but at the end of the story Marlowe seeks out Kurtz’s old finance, who still grieved even though he had been gone for over a year, to tell her in person that Kurtz had died. Interestingly, rather than tell her the truth of the circumstances around Kurtz’s death, he romanticizes it and lies that Kurtz died saying her name. Isn’t that special?!

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

he romanticizes it and lies that Kurtz died saying her name.

Where have we seen that before?  But that isn't what really interests me about the story.

[Melifeather]

28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Where have we seen that before?  But that isn't what really interests me about the story.

The parallels between the ivory Kurtz was collecting and the bones that litter the cave of skulls is interesting, as is his desire to kill all the savages compared to the looming threat of the white walkers and wights. Marlow was successful in getting Kurtz to leave, but he sickens and dies on the way back to civilization. We all understand that Bloodraven isn't going anywhere, but I have read speculations that Bran won't stay. 

[alienarea]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

The parallels between the ivory Kurtz was collecting and the bones that litter the cave of skulls is interesting, as is his desire to kill all the savages compared to the looming threat of the white walkers and wights. Marlow was successful in getting Kurtz to leave, but he sickens and dies on the way back to civilization. We all understand that Bloodraven isn't going anywhere, but I have read speculations that Bran won't stay. 

A weirwood ent would have solved Bloodraven's issues.

[Lady Rhodes]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm also starting to think that Mel's vision of a man, a wolf and a man is actually Bran wandering about.  She would recognize Jon Snow but not Hodor

This is a very good point I hadn’t considered. I had always assumed jon but you are right - she would recognize Jon, but not Hodor.

also regarding the cave, doesn’t Bran find a bunch of skulls at one point?

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, Melifeather said:

IMO it sounds like a similar plot, but with twists. Bloodraven and Bran are mummers playing parts in the production of the Heart of Darkness.

Kurtz had the steamboat attacked with the hope of turning Marlowe away, while Bloodraven wanted Bran to come. Kurtz plans to exterminate the “savages” so he can continue collecting ivory,  while Leaf makes it sound like they hope to minimize a mass extinction.

Fundamentally its the same - and consistent too with with the ambiguities of GRRM's own writing. The three-fingered tree-huggers want the Bran boy. Bloodraven is their agent, but may have tried at the last moment to save him, just as  Kurz ordered the ambush and the Russian was his agent and at the same time remained enigmatic to the end.

[LynnS]

12 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

This is a very good point I hadn’t considered. I had always assumed jon but you are right - she would recognize Jon, but not Hodor.

also regarding the cave, doesn’t Bran find a bunch of skulls at one point?

Me too.  Mel also looks into the fires searching for the enemy and sees someone whom she dismisses because he isn't terrifying.  Once again, I think she is seeing Hodor/Bran.

 

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Devan fed fresh logs to the fire until the flames leapt up again, fierce and furious, driving the shadows back into the corners of the room, devouring all her unwanted dreams. The dark recedes again … for a little while. But beyond the Wall, the enemy grows stronger, and should he win the dawn will never come again. She wondered if it had been his face that she had seen, staring out at her from the flames. No. Surely not. His visage would be more frightening than that, cold and black and too terrible for any man to gaze upon and live. The wooden man she had glimpsed, though, and the boy with the wolf's face … they were his servants, surely … his champions, as Stannis was hers.

 

 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

The wooden man she had glimpsed, though, and the boy with the wolf's face … they were his servants, surely … his champions, as Stannis was hers.

Surely the wooden man is Bloodraven? He is slowly being absorbed into the weirwoods.

[Frey family reunion]

18 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Yes, I would say it’s the same story, but inverted. 
 

I hate to spoil things for you, but at the end of the story Marlowe seeks out Kurtz’s old finance, who still grieved even though he had been gone for over a year, to tell her in person that Kurtz had died. Interestingly, rather than tell her the truth of the circumstances around Kurtz’s death, he romanticizes it and lies that Kurtz died saying her name. Isn’t that special?!

Heh, kind of reminds me of Dany's clearly romanticized vision of Rhaegar's death

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Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water with his last breath murmured a woman's name.

 

[Melifeather]

6 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Heh, kind of reminds me of Dany's clearly romanticized vision of Rhaegar's death

 

Exact-a-mundo! Which made me wonder who started that rumor?

[Frey family reunion]

8 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Exact-a-mundo! Which made me wonder who started that rumor?

I don't necessarily know that it was a rumor.  We may very well just be looking at Dany's own romanticized belief at how the events unfolded being thrown in with the other visions.

After all she already knows the story about Rhaegar dying on the Trident battling for the honor of the woman he loved.  She actually observed Viserys's death, and finally her vision of her son (as if he lived) might very well be how she envisioned the future of her unborn son, having all the best physical attributes of her and Khal Drogo, while fulfilling his legacy of being the Stallion that mounts the world.

[LynnS]

44 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Surely the wooden man is Bloodraven? He is slowly being absorbed into the weirwoods.

Yes.  Mel isn't very clued in about greenseeers, is she?  Yet she can't see the face beneath the mask for either BR or Bran.  She keeps talking about the enemy.  If you are burning down weirwoods, enemy is a relative term.  When BR and Bran broke into her fire vision; she's looking for the 'enemy', the one whose name cannot be spoken.  Where on the other side of the fire; Bran is being shown the enemy as well.  

Certainly Bran's name cannot be spoken, considering that Sam was  interrogated by Mel and Stannis when he returned to Castle Black.  Mel most certainly can't be told Bran's name, never mind Jon.

Her notion that the man she saw and dismissed in her vision as not cold or terrible enough, certainly puts me in mind of placid Hodor.  Perhaps being warged by Bran and this is why she sees this man in her visions.  So Mel is expecting a man with a sword to contest with Stannis, not a greenseer.  That seems more likely to be Jon in his potential aspect of King of Winter.

Which brings me to Lyanna and her crown of winter roses.  Perhaps the significance is not that she is the queen of love and beauty; but the queen of winter and this is why she asks to be buried in the crypts beside her father and brother.  Her successor or offspring then becomes the King of Winter.

As for Hodor, Mel might not be taking it as a threat to her person as she had been taught to do.   

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Certainly Bran's name cannot be spoken, considering that Sam was  interrogated by Mel and Stannis when he returned to Castle Black.  Mel most certainly can't be told Bran's name, never mind Jon.

 

Kind of ironic isn't it? Melisandre calls the cold god, "he who shall not be named", while Sam promised Bran he would not tell anyone he saw him alive:

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"I am not the one you were told to bring," Jojen Reed told fat Sam in his stained and baggy blacks. "He is."

"Oh." Sam looked down at him uncertainly. It might have been just then that he realized Bran was crippled. "I don't . . . I'm not strong enough to carry you, I . . ."

"Hodor can carry me." Bran pointed at his basket. "I ride in that, up on his back."

Sam was staring at him. "You're Jon Snow's brother. The one who fell . . ."

"No," said Jojen. "That boy is dead."

"Don't tell," Bran warned. "Please."

Sam looked confused for a moment, but finally he said, "I . . . I can keep a secret. Gilly too." When he looked at her, the girl nodded. "Jon . . . Jon was my brother too. He was the best friend I ever had, but he went off with Qhorin Halfhand to scout the Frostfangs and never came back. We were waiting for him on the Fist when . . . when . . ."

 

 

It's always fun to search for a certain passage and stumble upon something else. I came across this and thought it'd be fun to share:

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Sam shook his head. "You won't. I have to take you."

"Why?" Meera demanded. "If there's a gate . . ."

"You won't find it. If you did it wouldn't open. Not for you. It's the Black Gate." Sam plucked at the faded black wool of his sleeve. "Only a man of the Night's Watch can open it, he said. A Sworn Brother who has said his words."

Only sworn brothers of the Watch can find and open the Black Gate.

There's also this humorous passage about Coldhands, his elk, and his ravens:

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"That wasn't his true name," said Gilly, rocking. "We only called him that, Sam and me. His hands were cold as ice, but he saved us from the dead men, him and his ravens, and he brought us here on his elk."

"His elk?" said Bran, wonderstruck.

"His elk?" said Meera, startled.

"His ravens?" said Jojen.

"Hodor?" said Hodor.

 

 

[LynnS]

How close are these two things to each other?  Is Ser Shadrich's  decpicting the first part of Jojen and Meera's oath on his shield? 

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A Clash of Kings - Bran III

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together. "Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

 

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A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

"The merchant called you Shadrich."

"Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen. Some call me the Mad Mouse." He turned his shield to show her his sigil, a large white mouse with fierce red eyes, on bendy brown and blue. "The brown is for the lands I've roamed, the blue for the rivers that I've crossed. The mouse is me."