Heresy 229 and hitting the refresh button

[LynnS]

58 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

a collective - and not a solitary omnipotent being, but are they solely on the side of "Ice"? Right now I lean towards "not exactly", because I think the Children have used all forms of magic: ice, fire, earth, and water - maybe even air, to work their spells.

Yes, the question is how they use it.  I'd say that popping into Mel's fire visions is one way of using fire and Coldhands seems to be the result of using ice mgic. 

The effect of Bran and  BR's intrusion on Mel is curious.  She is physically affected, bleeds black blood, and Bran is shown her origin and making into a fire wight.

Add this to the strangeness of Beric Dondarrion sitting on a weirwood throne and passing on the fire within to Catelyn;  I wonder what really possessed him to do such a thing.  A greenseer?

[Frey family reunion]

30 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, the question is how they use it.  I'd say that popping into Mel's fire visions is one way of using fire and Coldhands seems to be the result of using ice mgic. 

The effect of Bran and  BR's intrusion on Mel is curious.  She is physically affected, bleeds black blood, and Bran is shown her origin and making into a fire wight.

Add this to the strangeness of Beric Dondarrion sitting on a weirwood throne and passing on the fire within to Catelyn;  I wonder what really possessed him to do such a thing.  A greenseer?

I do wonder if Beric has visited the Isle of Faces:

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They learned that Lord Beric had ten starvelings with him, or else a hundred mounted knights; that he had ridden west, or north, or south; that he had crossed the lake in a boat; that he was strong as an aurochs or weak from the bloody flux.

If indeed he had crossed the God’s Eye in a boat, this could very well have taken him  to the Isle.  Perhaps he’s been recruited by the Green men.

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

If indeed he had crossed the God’s Eye in a boat, this could very well have taken him  to the Isle.  Perhaps he’s been recruited by the Green men.

Interesting.  I wonder how much a greenseer can affect a fire wight when they are peering into their fires.  When Bran tells Jon that he isn't afraid anymore "he can see them, but they can see him"; I wonder if he is talking about Mel and Moqorro et al.  That would seem to be supported by the Mel's vision of the man with a wooden face and the boy with the wolf's head.  Their faces are hidden from her.  Or she can't penetrate the masks.   That seems to be supported by the GoHH telling the red priest that his fires have now power on her hill.

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Interesting.  I wonder how much a greenseer can affect a fire wight when they are peering into their fires.  When Bran tells Jon that he isn't afraid anymore "he can see them, but they can see him"; I wonder if he is talking about Mel and Moqorro et al.  That would seem to be supported by the Mel's vision of the man with a wooden face and the boy with the wolf's head.  Their faces are hidden from her.  Or she can't penetrate the masks.   That seems to be supported by the GoHH telling the red priest that his fires have now power on her hill.

I think that there might be a connection between the weirwoods and the flames.  Bran was staring into the fire right before he had his first weirwood vision of his father.

[redriver]

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think that there might be a connection between the weirwoods and the flames.  Bran was staring into the fire right before he had his first weirwood vision of his father.

I think Weirwoods and flames just don't work together.

[alienarea]

15 hours ago, redriver said:

I think Weirwoods and flames just don't work together.

Marshmallows tend to disagree.

[LynnS]

On 1/27/2020 at 12:31 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I think that there might be a connection between the weirwoods and the flames.  Bran was staring into the fire right before he had his first weirwood vision of his father.

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A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

"The godswood." Meera Reed ran after the direwolf, her shield and frog spear to hand. The rest of them trailed after, threading their way through smoke and fallen stones. The air was sweeter under the trees. A few pines along the edge of the wood had been scorched, but deeper in the damp soil and green wood had defeated the flames. "There is a power in living wood," said Jojen Reed, almost as if he knew what Bran was thinking, "a power strong as fire."

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A Storm of Swords - Bran I

Gravel flew from beneath his paws as he gained the last few feet to stand upon the crest. The sun hung above the tall pines huge and red, and below him the trees and hills went on and on as far as he could see or smell. A kite was circling far above, dark against the pink sky.

Prince. The man-sound came into his head suddenly, yet he could feel the rightness of it. Prince of the green, prince of the wolfswood. He was strong and swift and fierce, and all that lived in the good green world went in fear of him.

 

 

[LynnS]

15 hours ago, alienarea said:

Marshmallows tend to disagree.

 

[redriver]

On 1/27/2020 at 4:42 PM, LynnS said:

Yes, the question is how they use it.  I'd say that popping into Mel's fire visions is one way of using fire and Coldhands seems to be the result of using ice mgic. 

The effect of Bran and  BR's intrusion on Mel is curious.  She is physically affected, bleeds black blood, and Bran is shown her origin and making into a fire wight.

Add this to the strangeness of Beric Dondarrion sitting on a weirwood throne and passing on the fire within to Catelyn;  I wonder what really possessed him to do such a thing.  A greenseer?

Did he pass any fire within a Weirwood throne onto Catelyn?

[Frey family reunion]

On 1/27/2020 at 7:11 PM, redriver said:

I think Weirwoods and flames just don't work together.

I think you’re right and there is a bit in ASOS that proves your point when the Brotherhood without Banners travel to High Heart amongst the Weirwood stumps to meet the woods witch:

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They built a great fire atop the hill, and Thoros of Myr sat crosslegged beside it, gazing deep into the flames as if there was nothing else in all the world.

Gendry was watching the red priest as well. “Can you truly see the future there?” he asked suddenly.
Thoros turned from the fire, sighing. “Not here. Not now. But some days, yes, the Lord of Light grants me visions.”

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She cackled again. “Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you’ll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still … they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists.”

I was also incorrect.  Bran’s first Weirwood vision didn’t not occur when he stared into the fire.  Instead it was the opposite, they extinguished all the torches before he had his vision.  It was his second vision that occurred while Bran stared into the fire:

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Watching the flames, Bran decided he would stay awake till Meera came back. Jojen would be unhappy, he knew, but Meera would be glad for him, He did not remember closing his eyes.
 … but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. “… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them,” he prayed, “and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …”
“Father.” Bran’s voice was a whisper in the wind, a rustle in the leaves. “Father, it’s me. It’s Bran. Brandon.”
Eddard Stark lifted his head and looked long at the weirwood, frowning, but he did not speak.

So there is definitely an interplay between the two so far it seems like a negative one as you said.  But I do wonder if something about Bran may be different than the rules everyone else are playing under. 

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, redriver said:

Did he pass any fire within a Weirwood throne onto Catelyn?

That's not the question I'm asking.  I'll rephrase:  In the context of the crannogman's oath,  what is the relationship between the old gods and fire? How do the greenseers use fire magic?  

Do they subvert fire wights to their purposes?  Breaking into Mel's vision may be an example of living wood being stronger than fire. 

What  was it that compelled Beric to ressurrect  Catelyn when the red priest refused?  Do we really think R'hllor was the catalyst?  Was Beric compelled to do so by a greenseer.

 

 

 

 

[redriver]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That's not the question I'm asking.  I'll rephrase:  In the context of the crannogman's oath,  what is the relationship between the old gods and fire? How do the greenseers use fire magic?  

Do they subvert fire wights to their purposes?  Breaking into Mel's vision may be an example of living wood being stronger than fire. 

What  was it that compelled Beric to ressurrect  Catelyn when the red priest refused?  Do we really think R'hllor was the catalyst?  Was Beric compelled to do so by a greenseer.

 

 

 

 

 

[alienarea]

6 hours ago, redriver said:

 

Why should a greenseer want to resurrect Catelyn?

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

Why should a greenseer want to resurrect Catelyn?

Lady Stoneheart could be a tool to hunt down and kill people that the old gods think deserve justice. Recall that Bran thought “men would be wroth”. The gods hate those that break the laws of hospitality and who better than someone who lost so much when they should have been securely protected.

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Lady Stoneheart could be a tool to hunt down and kill people that the old gods think deserve justice. Recall that Bran thought “men would be wroth”. The gods hate those that break the laws of hospitality and who better than someone who lost so much when they should have been securely protected.

It's hard to see Lady Stoneheart as  an instrument of R'Hllor or even in the same camp as Mel and Moqorro.  She has her own agenda which probably still includes finding Sansa and Arya.

So if Bran can have a fire vision without being a fire wight; perhaps something to do with the third eye, and BR/Bran can break into Mel's fire vision; then they have some facility using fire magic in that sense.  So I think it follows that the old gods are working both sides of the street.

That calls into question the origin of fire visions, at least for Mel.  When she keeps asking to see R'hllor's instrument expecting to see Stanns, she sees Jon instead.  I question whether it's her god or the Great Other(wolf) who is sending the vision.  It seems more likely to me that Jon will be Bran's instrument. 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's hard to see Lady Stoneheart as  an instrument of R'Hllor or even in the same camp as Mel and Moqorro.  She has her own agenda which probably still includes finding Sansa and Arya.

So if Bran can have a fire vision without being a fire wight; perhaps something to do with the third eye, and BR/Bran can break into Mel's fire vision; then they have some facility using fire magic in that sense.  So I think it follows that the old gods are working both sides of the street.

That calls into question the origin of fire visions, at least for Mel.  When she keeps asking to see R'hllor's instrument expecting to see Stanns, she sees Jon instead.  I question whether it's her god or the Great Other(wolf) who is sending the vision.  It seems more likely to me that Jon will be Bran's instrument. 

Jon may end up leading an army of the dead, and just like Lady Stoneheart has her posse, his purpose might be as a tool of the old gods to bring justice down upon those who the gods hate. The gods may be just as wroth as Bran thought men would be.

[Lady Dyanna]

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“To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater,” they said together. “Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you.” 

“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green. 

“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said. 

“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together.

Ok. So thinking on this, something just dawned on me... I’ve always tried to relate this to magic too, but what if it’s actually Just another representation of the “Seven?” Mother, Maiden, Crone, Warrior, Smith, and Father. The seventh remains nameless as it is Death.

I keep getting stuck on Septa Lemore. I mean it’s pretty clear that she is in hiding and not an actual current Septa. Not to mention the name “Lemore.” It is reminiscent of both l’amore and l’amorte. And Septa is 7. Is she the 7th love? Of who? Or Presumed dead? Representing the Stranger?

It seems that we se several instances of parties of 6 with one person of the opposite sex noted. The six kings sent by Queen Nym, the six washerwomen and Abel. 

[LynnS]

On 1/30/2020 at 8:21 AM, Melifeather said:

Jon may end up leading an army of the dead, and just like Lady Stoneheart has her posse, his purpose might be as a tool of the old gods to bring justice down upon those who the gods hate. The gods may be just as wroth as Bran thought men would be.

This makes sense to me.

On the oath of ice and fire;  I wonder if this is about maintaining the balance between ice and fire.  R'hllor, whose name also can't be spoken, could be the other side of the same coin.  Which calls to mind the Faceless Men and their coda that death pays for life. When Mel sacrifices to the fire, does this really please R'hllor or do these deaths pay for her life?

It also calls to mind the old heresy that there really is only one god.  The faceless men swear on all the gods:

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

"Swear it," Arya said. "Swear it by the gods."

"By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it." He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. "By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it."

 

The god of many faces is also the god of many names.

  

[Melifeather]

42 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This makes sense to me.

On the oath of ice and fire;  I wonder if this is about maintaining the balance between ice and fire.  R'hllor, whose name also can't be spoken, could be the other side of the same coin.  Which calls to mind the Faceless Men and their coda that death pays for life. When Mel sacrifices to the fire, does this really please R'hllor or do these deaths pay for her life?

It also calls to mind the old heresy that there really is only one god.  The faceless men swear on all the gods:

The god of many faces is also the god of many names.

  

I really think you've discovered that He Who Shall Not Be Named is Bran, which makes me think that Rh'llor has/had a human source too. The glass candles seem to be the opposite of weirwood trees, so I'm thinking Rh'llor sits behind a glass candle.

[LynnS]

12 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I keep getting stuck on Septa Lemore. I mean it’s pretty clear that she is in hiding and not an actual current Septa. Not to mention the name “Lemore.” It is reminiscent of both l’amore and l’amorte. And Septa is 7. Is she the 7th love? Of who? Or Presumed dead? Representing the Stranger?

I think there are different orders for Septas.  The silent sisters care for the dead and are handmaidens of the Stranger.  Lemore isn't masquerading as a member of that order; but the one related to the Mother acting as a governess.

Her name is another thing altogether.   I have to go with the version relating to love/affection, a love song or to do with loving care.