Heresy 229 and hitting the refresh button

[redriver]

10 minutes ago, Mace Cooterian said:

They most certainly do.  From the almighty google:

Wolves' vocalizations can be separated into four categories: barking, whimpering, growling, and howling. Sounds created by the wolf may actually be a combination of sounds such as a bark-howl or growl-bark. Barking is used as a warning. ... A wolf may growl at intruding wolves or predators, or to indicate dominance.

Google did not indicate what a wolf would say if stranded on the IOF and trying to order something through the drive through at Burger King.

Well that's settled then.

Good to hear from you, Mace. Been a while.

[Mace Cooterian]

20 hours ago, redriver said:

Well that's settled then.

Good to hear from you, Mace. Been a while.

Getting back to the Reed's Oath, this is a topic that has been volleyed back and forth on numerous occasions, never really getting dialed in on its meaning and relevance.

As a curiosity, I researched the Heresy Database and found that it was first brought up for discussion by @Black Crow in Heresy 30, back in November of 2012.  While we've had a good 7 years to explore the Oath, I do like your recent comments about the third line being performed in unison, suggesting an agreement or pact.  I'd be interested in your thoughts on how ice and fire could have been key components on forming the Neck.  The ice part is fairly straight forward for me, given the COTF and Northern magic.  The fire aspect, not so clear to me.

[LynnS]

11 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

The fire aspect, not so clear to me.

Me either. The first part of the Reed's oath seems standard for pledging allegiance to  lord.  The last three lines seem to invoke the power of the gods to seal it.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran III

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together. "Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

It doesn't tell us what was agreed in the Pact. It just gives us the last three lines.  It's also similar in form to Jaqen H'gar's oath to Arya:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Arya IX

"Swear it," Arya said. "Swear it by the gods."

"By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it." He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. "By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it."He has sworn. "Even if I named the king . . ."

In this case, he swears by sea, air and fire in front of the Harrenhall weirwood.  Which makes me wonder if the Faceless Men made their own Pact with the old gods.

With respect to the Reed's oath, the first line I give to the cotf whose weapon is ice and the second to the first men, whose weapon was fire.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

"She will leave on the morrow, with us," Lord Beric assured the little woman. "We're taking her to Riverrun, to her mother."

"Nay," said the dwarf. "You're not. The black fish holds the rivers now. If it's the mother you want, seek her at the Twins. For there's to be a wedding." She cackled again. "Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see. Not now, though, not here, you'll see nothing here. This place belongs to the old gods still . . . they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead. Nor do they love the flames. For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both. And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists." She drank the last of the wine in four long swallows, flung the skin aside, and pointed her stick at Lord Beric. "I'll have my payment now. I'll have the song you promised me."

The last line of the oath is what?  The joining of ice and fire against what?

If the land is one, where is it broken? Is it the Neck or something else?   Dany does an odd thing in preparing Drogo for the pyre:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X

"I swear it," she said in the Common Tongue of the Seven Kingdoms that by rights were hers.

The third level of the platform was woven of branches no thicker than a finger, and covered with dry leaves and twigs. They laid them north to south, from ice to fire, and piled them high with soft cushions and sleeping silks. The sun had begun to lower toward the west by the time they were done. Dany called the Dothraki around her. Fewer than a hundred were left. How many had Aegon started with? she wondered. It did not matter.

From north to south, from ice to fire?  The land is one?

[QhorinQuarterhand]

On 1/12/2020 at 9:03 AM, Brother Seamus said:

It's nice to see someone say this. Back a few years when I posted on this forum more often, I said the same thing: fundamentally this is a story about a family that is separated and meets with a series of disasters, the survivors mostly unaware of the fates of the others, who then go on their own journeys of adversity and survival and self-discovery, and then presumably eventually reunite to some extent, re-form their family, and overcome their tragedies and in some sense or another (I predict) prevail. The Starks, especially Bran and Arya, and to a lesser extent Jon and Sansa, are the emotional heart of the story. They are who the story is really about. 

Don't get me wrong, I also love the mythologizing, the faux-medieval world building, the mixing and matching and altering of real-world history and anthropology, the mystery/detective/suspense novel elements, and the action, but what has kept me waiting on the edge of my seat since I read all five novels in single month in 2013 is the deep need to find out what happens to Arya, Bran, Jon ,and Sansa, roughly in that order.

 

Pretty much the same here. Except I've been reading since 2012. George gave us so many Stark POVs, he wants us rooting for them. It's what makes the Red Wedding so crushing. Robb was to head North afterwards to gain back and restore Winterfell. We were rooting for Robb to avenge Ned, because George has us invested so much in the Starks. 

The reason for this may or may not matter, but the side effects can. We the readers assume House Stark are the good guys. The difference between my 1st read and now is I've come to the conclusion that thinking what George wants you to is the worst thing you can do.

[QhorinQuarterhand]

On 1/13/2020 at 12:23 PM, LynnS said:

That's what you Muggles are meant to think.  We are talking about a world where the seasons are a generation long and where a red comet can appear in the sky. 

I'm surprised that nobody in Planetos has once mentioned seeing an aurora.  You'd think that the maesters with all their stargazing would know something about it.   Auroras in the the real world are a tourist attraction can be seen sometimes as far south from the pole as 35 degrees north.  I've seen them at latitude 42 degrees North.  The Starks and the Wildlings and the Northern folk surely would have seen them.  But nobody has ever said so. 

So I don't think this is your every day curtain of light any more than a red comet is your every day comet.

True enough. But we also don't see the characters encounter wild animals nearly as often as I'd imagine they would in real life. We can't expect Planetos to be a 1 to 1 copy of a real world.

[LynnS]

33 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

True enough. But we also don't see the characters encounter wild animals nearly as often as I'd imagine they would in real life. We can't expect Planetos to be a 1 to 1 copy of a real world.

Is that you Corban?  

[QhorinQuarterhand]

On 1/23/2020 at 5:27 AM, alienarea said:

At this point in time, I'm really curious to learn your opinions about where the story took a wrong turn, i.e. the gardener got lazy.

When he abandoned the 5 year gap.

[QhorinQuarterhand]

On 2/10/2020 at 10:15 AM, alienarea said:

Or at a Burger King.

I haven't had a proper direwolf Whopper in years...

[QhorinQuarterhand]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Is that you Corban?  

Kurt Cobain?

[Black Crow]

18 hours ago, Mace Cooterian said:

Getting back to the Reed's Oath, this is a topic that has been volleyed back and forth on numerous occasions, never really getting dialed in on its meaning and relevance.

As a curiosity, I researched the Heresy Database and found that it was first brought up for discussion by @Black Crow in Heresy 30, back in November of 2012.  While we've had a good 7 years to explore the Oath, I do like your recent comments about the third line being performed in unison, suggesting an agreement or pact.  I'd be interested in your thoughts on how ice and fire could have been key components on forming the Neck.  The ice part is fairly straight forward for me, given the COTF and Northern magic.  The fire aspect, not so clear to me.

That long, huh?

Anyway, I've always argued that it is indeed the oath used to seal the pact.

The first line, swearing by Earth and Water [ie: the natural world] is performed by the Children

The second line, swearing by Bronze and Iron [ie: the "made" world] is performed by Men

And then of course the third line, Ice and Fire, [magick] by being performed in unison is what seals it.

 

[great to hear from you again]

[Black Crow]

17 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Pretty much the same here. Except I've been reading since 2012. George gave us so many Stark POVs, he wants us rooting for them. It's what makes the Red Wedding so crushing. Robb was to head North afterwards to gain back and restore Winterfell. We were rooting for Robb to avenge Ned, because George has us invested so much in the Starks. 

The reason for this may or may not matter, but the side effects can. We the readers assume House Stark are the good guys. The difference between my 1st read and now is I've come to the conclusion that thinking what George wants you to is the worst thing you can do.

Ah well a central tenet of this Heresy business is that the story revolves around the Children of Winterfell, exactly as GRRM wrote in the synopsis - but that the crypts hold a dark family secret far more sinister than the silly speculation about possible [nay, certain] R+L=J clues in Lyanna's tomb

[corbon]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

Is that you Corban?  

I have only ever used one forum identity.
If I ever lose it somehow and have to form another, it will be recognisably similar.

[LynnS]

14 hours ago, corbon said:

I have only ever used one forum identity.
If I ever lose it somehow and have to form another, it will be recognisably similar.

It's all good.  I'm just tired, that's all.  My mother passed away on Monday and for some reason I thought you were having some fun with me.  Due respect to Qhorin, Quarterhand, that's funny.   

[The BlackBear]

Wrong thread 

[Lady Dyanna]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

It's all good.  I'm just tired, that's all.  My mother passed away on Monday and for some reason I thought you were having some fun with me.  Due respect to Qhorin, Quarterhand, that's funny.   

@LynnS, I’m so sorry to hear about your mom. I know that you’ve always seemed close. Positive thoughts headed your way. 

[LynnS]

38 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

@LynnS, I’m so sorry to hear about your mom. I know that you’ve always seemed close. Positive thoughts headed your way. 

Thank you, it was expected.  What wasn't expected was the merchandise she ordered online from China; which is still arriving.  THe latest was a Don Cherry style orange plaid sports jacket.  My sister told her if she wore it outside, she was taking her picture and putting it on facebook.  Also, some kind of ice scraper for your windshield shaped like a funnel.  Six of them because they were free so long as you paid for shipping.  Straight out of Futurama.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Thank you, it was expected.  What wasn't expected was the merchandise she ordered online from China; which is still arriving.  THe latest was a Don Cherry style orange plaid sports jacket.  My sister told her if she wore it outside, she was taking her picture and putting it on facebook.  Also, some kind of ice scraper for your windshield shaped like a funnel.  Six of them because they were free so long as you paid for shipping.  Straight out of Futurama.

She sounds like a fun character! Maybe the orange plaid jacket will fit you? One can only hope!

[corbon]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's all good.  I'm just tired, that's all.  My mother passed away on Monday

I'm very sorry to hear that, expected or not.

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

and for some reason I thought you were having some fun with me.   

Not my idea of fun. 

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, corbon said:

I'm very sorry to hear that, expected or not.

Thank you, that's very kind.  She had several close calls where we didn't think it was possible to recover over the past year.  But then she had two strokes and we knew she wouldn't recover.  She was 81.  That's probably a bit too much information.  I'll stop now. 

[Lady Dyanna]

21 hours ago, LynnS said:

Thank you, it was expected.  What wasn't expected was the merchandise she ordered online from China; which is still arriving.  THe latest was a Don Cherry style orange plaid sports jacket.  My sister told her if she wore it outside, she was taking her picture and putting it on facebook.  Also, some kind of ice scraper for your windshield shaped like a funnel.  Six of them because they were free so long as you paid for shipping.  Straight out of Futurama.

Lol. Sounds like she wanted to leave you with a laugh to remember her by. I had a dream years ago in which one of our Heresy members was actually wearing a green and orange plaid suit ( I think it was) so I can have a little extra chuckle. I’m glad she left you with positive memories. :))