Heresy 229 and hitting the refresh button

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Lol. Sounds like she wanted to leave you with a laugh to remember her by. I had a dream years ago in which one of our Heresy members was actually wearing a green and orange plaid suit ( I think it was) so I can have a little extra chuckle. I’m glad she left you with positive memories. :))

You'd never catch me in that get up.  It would clash with my blue hair.  I'll take the ice scraper.

[Frey family reunion]

On 2/12/2020 at 1:11 PM, Black Crow said:

Ah well a central tenet of this Heresy business is that the story revolves around the Children of Winterfell, exactly as GRRM wrote in the synopsis - but that the crypts hold a dark family secret far more sinister than the silly speculation about possible [nay, certain] R+L=J clues in Lyanna's tomb

It’s always mystified me why so many assume that the point of this series is some sort of Targaryen restoration story.  I assume it’s the Rhaegar Lyanna tease which fits so easily and predictably into a fantasy trope.

If anyone has read any of GRRM’s other works should be highly suspicious of this, his tales rarely fit so easily into any tropes.  Even if they don’t subvert them, they tend to be messier, darker, more complicated, and yes even more convoluted then they initially appear. 
 

It also irritates me that any allusions to Jon as a “King” must necessarily be read as a Targaryen king.  Especially since early on in the story we’re told about the Winter Kings who have existed long before the Targaryens ever set foot in Westeros.

The fact that so many elements of Jon’s story arc revolves around his place in Winterfell vs the oath he’s taken with the Watch, it seems highly unlikely that at this late stage in the game the author is going to switch gears and substitute the Iron Throne into Jon’s storyline.  

Or for that matter some nonsense involving dragon riding.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

It’s always mystified me why so many assume that the point of this series is some sort of Targaryen restoration story.  I assume it’s the Rhaegar Lyanna tease which fits so easily and predictably into a fantasy trope.

If anyone has read any of GRRM’s other works should be highly suspicious of this, his tales rarely fit so easily into any tropes.  Even if they don’t subvert them, they tend to be messier, darker, more complicated, and yes even more convoluted then they initially appear. 
 

It also irritates me that any allusions to Jon as a “King” must necessarily be read as a Targaryen king.  Especially since early on in the story we’re told about the Winter Kings who have existed long before the Targaryens ever set foot in Westeros.

The fact that so many elements of Jon’s story arc revolves around his place in Winterfell vs the oath he’s taken with the Watch, it seems highly unlikely that at this late stage in the game the author is going to switch gears and substitute the Iron Throne into Jon’s storyline.  

Or for that matter some nonsense involving dragon riding.

Yuup... I'm reminded of Osha's line that Winter's got no King, and suggest that's a far more significant clue to Jon's real destiny.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Yuup... I'm reminded of Osha's line that Winter's got no King, and suggest that's a far more significant clue to Jon's real destiny.

I’m reminded of an incorrect assumption I made which I only realized after trying to type in a search term in my ebook copy of the series.  I always assumed that Robb’s title was King of the North.  But it’s not.  It’s King in the North.  

Perhaps rather than refer to Kings of Winter, its more apt to consider them Kings during Winter.  Which makes me wonder if a being a King in the North during Winter is analogous to the title actually given to Jon:  Corn King.  A sacrifice to bring about the end of a Long Winter.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m reminded of an incorrect assumption I made which I only realized after trying to type in a search term in my ebook copy of the series.  I always assumed that Robb’s title was King of the North.  But it’s not.  It’s King in the North.  

Perhaps rather than refer to Kings of Winter, its more apt to consider them Kings during Winter.  Which makes me wonder if a being a King in the North during Winter is analogous to the title actually given to Jon:  Corn King.  A sacrifice to bring about the end of a Long Winter.

King in the North sounds like there's another king further south...and I agree that Kings of Winter sound like they conquered winter.

[Frey family reunion]

15 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

King in the North sounds like there's another king further south...and I agree that Kings of Winter sound like they conquered winter.

There were a number of kings further south.  Most notably, Storm Kings and Gardner Kings.  If Winterfell had a direct parallel in the South, I would argue that it would be Highgarden.  

[Black Crow]

I'm reminded here of King Frederick of Bohemia [start of the 30 Years War]. That was his title but he's better known as the Winter King because that's all he managed before being defeated and forced into exile.

The Winter King of Westeros may not be a title in the dense of having dominion over Winter, but rather one who must rule during Winter and yes, perhaps die in order to end it

[alienarea]

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm reminded here of King Frederick of Bohemia [start of the 30 Years War]. That was his title but he's better known as the Winter King because that's all he managed before being defeated and forced into exile.

The Winter King of Westeros may not be a title in the dense of having dominion over Winter, but rather one who must rule during Winter and yes, perhaps die in order to end it

I see a strong connection between 'Kings of Winter' and 'Winter is coming'.

When Winter is there, the fate of Westeros depends on House Stark. The glass gardens of Winterfell give a hint.

 

[Black Crow]

34 minutes ago, alienarea said:

I see a strong connection between 'Kings of Winter' and 'Winter is coming'.

When Winter is there, the fate of Westeros depends on House Stark. The glass gardens of Winterfell give a hint.

 

Exactly, and this is precisely the narrative which is being hidden by the red herring of the Targaryen succession

[LynnS]

19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m reminded of an incorrect assumption I made which I only realized after trying to type in a search term in my ebook copy of the series.  I always assumed that Robb’s title was King of the North.  But it’s not.  It’s King in the North.  

Perhaps rather than refer to Kings of Winter, its more apt to consider them Kings during Winter.  Which makes me wonder if a being a King in the North during Winter is analogous to the title actually given to Jon:  Corn King.  A sacrifice to bring about the end of a Long Winter.

Also, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell which is located north and north and north according to Sansa.  There must be a Stark in Winterfell (because) Winter is coming.  This sounds like a condition of the Pact between the coft and the first men.

I'm not sure what it means that Jon has likely met his death, if he is to be corn king.  It seems that the sacrifice has been made and it's the King of Winter that must be slain.  Winter does not yet have a king until Jon is transformed would be my guess.

It's Bran who speaks of the Kings of Winter in the crypts:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

He wished they were here now; the vault might not have seemed so dark and scary. Summer stalked out in the echoing gloom, then stopped, lifted his head, and sniffed the chill dead air. He bared his teeth and crept backward, eyes glowing golden in the light of the maester's torch. Even Osha, hard as old iron, seemed uncomfortable. "Grim folk, by the look of them," she said as she eyed the long row of granite Starks on their stone thrones.

"They were the Kings of Winter," Bran whispered. Somehow it felt wrong to talk too loudly in this place.

Osha smiled. "Winter's got no king. If you'd seen it, you'd know that, summer boy."

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

Meera looked to her brother for the answer. "Our road is north," Jojen announced.

At the edge of the wolfswood, Bran turned in his basket for one last glimpse of the castle that had been his life. Wisps of smoke still rose into the grey sky, but no more than might have risen from Winterfell's chimneys on a cold autumn afternoon. Soot stains marked some of the arrow loops, and here and there a crack or a missing merlon could be seen in the curtain wall, but it seemed little enough from this distance. Beyond, the tops of the keeps and towers still stood as they had for hundreds of years, and it was hard to tell that the castle had been sacked and burned at all. The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either.

 

It is only dead kings who are called the kings of winter.  Perhaps Osha is not all knowing and only referring to the fact that Bran has never known a winter.  Bran speaks of the old kings before the Starks gave up their crown.  

[alienarea]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Also, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell which is located north and north and north according to Sansa.  There must be a Stark in Winterfell (because) Winter is coming.  This sounds like a condition of the Pact between the coft and the first men.

I'm not sure what it means that Jon has likely met his death, if he is to be corn king.  It seems that the sacrifice has been made and it's the King of Winter that must be slain.  Winter does not yet have a king until Jon is transformed would be my guess.

It's Bran who speaks of the Kings of Winter in the crypts:

It is only dead kings who are called the kings of winter.  Perhaps Osha is not all knowing and only referring to the fact that Bran has never known a winter.  Bran speaks of the old kings before the Starks gave up their crown.  

The weirwood tree of Winterfell feeds on the ancient Stark kings - the Kings of Winter.

That connects to the sacrifice Bran witnesses in his dream.

This is the deal the last hero made with the children - his life for ending winter. 

The Starks continued (cheated?) by giving their dead kings to the weirwood - that created the white walkers in the frozen hell reserved for Starks.

When Rickard died in KL, and Brandon (the prince that was promised?), the deal was broken and long night aka winter and the army of the dead was triggered.

 That is why Bran must go North of the wall into the tree - he'll be king of Westeros, but also King of Winter and never leave the cave / the weirwood.

[Black Crow]

Broadly I think we're looking at this in a similar way, but I'd tend to look at a duality between Jon and Bran.

The king references to Jon are too strong to be ignored, but the associated clues point to Ice and Winter rather than Fire and Blood.

Bran has his own set of clues and they are quite different. Rather than rehearse them all over again, I'd simply suggest that what we;re looking at is Jon taking the role of Winter King while Bran is going into the trees to become the Green King and bring about the dream of Spring.

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Broadly I think we're looking at this in a similar way, but I'd tend to look at a duality between Jon and Bran.

The king references to Jon are too strong to be ignored, but the associated clues point to Ice and Winter rather than Fire and Blood.

Bran has his own set of clues and they are quite different. Rather than rehearse them all over again, I'd simply suggest that what we;re looking at is Jon taking the role of Winter King while Bran is going into the trees to become the Green King and bring about the dream of Spring.

Where does this leave Arya and Sansa.  Rickon, who knows.  Arya is being trained as an assassin, Sansa is learning how to survive the game of thrones and Rickon could be dead or alive or a second-lifer.  

[Lady Dyanna]

Got a chuckle out of this, but in a way it feels almost related...

https://www.tor.com/2019/12/24/i-cthulu-neil-gaiman/

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

Where does this leave Arya and Sansa.  Rickon, who knows.  Arya is being trained as an assassin, Sansa is learning how to survive the game of thrones and Rickon could be dead or alive or a second-lifer.  

Arya I really don't know about, but I reckon that its Sansa of the Snowflake Communion who keeps the Starks and Winterfell going. We have the story of Bael the Bard telling us how the present Starks are descended not from a Stark lord but from a Stark lady, while the as yet unseen She-wolves of Winterfell and the pregnant woman in the pool both hint at something similar. 

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Arya I really don't know about, but I reckon that its Sansa of the Snowflake Communion who keeps the Starks and Winterfell going. We have the story of Bael the Bard telling us how the present Starks are descended not from a Stark lord but from a Stark lady, while the as yet unseen She-wolves of Winterfell and the pregnant woman in the pool both hint at something similar. 

Yes, I agree.  I think this is the meaning of the wolves will survive, specifically the direwolves IIRC.  This seems to be what Leaf is saying about the old races.  If Rickon survives, I expect him to end up with Sansa at some point.  Yes, she will keep the Stark line going but with a twist.  I don't think Winterfell will survive if Bran, Jon and Dany break the spell joining ice and fire.  If Aegon survives, I imagine that Sansa will finally get her Prince of Dragonflies.    

As for Arya, this quote from GoT seems to be foreshadowing:

Quote

Game of Thrones - Arya I

Jon watched them leave, and Arya watched Jon. His face had grown as still as the pool at the heart of the godswood. Finally he climbed down off the window. "The show is done," he said. He bent to scratch Ghost behind the ears. The white wolf rose and rubbed against him. "You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

 I think the tragedy will be that Arya will be the one to give Jon and Lady Stoneheart the gift and this will destroy her.

[LynnS]

I'll also add that the Song of Ice and Fire belongs to Aegon and not Rhaegar.  I think Rhaegar says as much in the HoU.

Jojen also says something that I think might turn out to be about Aegon and Sansa.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate. Mountain or marsh, it makes no matter. The land is one."

"One," his sister agreed, "but over wrinkled."

If ice and fire can mate, then the land with be one, north to south, ice to fire. 

[Brad Stark]

On 2/17/2020 at 4:52 AM, Black Crow said:

Arya I really don't know about, but I reckon that its Sansa of the Snowflake Communion who keeps the Starks and Winterfell going. We have the story of Bael the Bard telling us how the present Starks are descended not from a Stark lord but from a Stark lady, while the as yet unseen She-wolves of Winterfell and the pregnant woman in the pool both hint at something similar. 

Don't we have a SSM about Sansa no longer being a Stark when Lady died? 

[Black Crow]

Don't recall exactly what was said, but since then we had the snowflake communion

[QhorinQuarterhand]

On 2/17/2020 at 6:02 AM, LynnS said:

I'll also add that the Song of Ice and Fire belongs to Aegon and not Rhaegar.  I think Rhaegar says as much in the HoU.

Jojen also says something that I think might turn out to be about Aegon and Sansa.

If ice and fire can mate, then the land with be one, north to south, ice to fire. 

So Littlefinger sells or otherwise allies Sansa with Aegon? 

I think an Aegon and Sansa union would be a far more interesting read than Jon and Dany.