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Black Crow

Heresy 229 and hitting the refresh button

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its a straightforward question. Sacrificing virgins is too well established in folklore to be called into question, but where's the textual link between [pale] green copper domes and Green Men and where are they described as "tree tops" ? 

Before I address the parallel between the green copper domes and the Green Men, do you at least recognize that there does seem to be parallels described or hinted at in the Cat of the Canals chapter? Because if you don't see the parallels, then you won't see them for the Green Men.

Here is a paragraph from the third page of this chapter where Arya as Cat is taking note of some striking landmarks in Braavos. The names of the places as well as where they are located, are aligned with parallel landmarks in the Riverlands:

Quote

The Long Canal took Brusco's boat beneath the green copper domes of the Palace of Truth and the tall square towers of the Prestayns and Antaryons before passing under the immense grey arches of the sweetwater river to the district known as Silty Town, where the buildings were smaller and less grand. Later in the day the canal would be choked with serpent boats and barges, but in the predawn darkness they had the waterway almost to themselves. Brusco liked to reach the fishmarket just as the Titan roared to herald the coming of the sun. The sound would boom across the lagoon, faint with distance but still loud enough to wake the sleeping city.

Brusco’s route seems to replicate a trip from the Isle of Faces, up a fork of the Trident, continuing past and under the Frey Bridge, and toward the Neck.

Here are my interpretations for all the landmarks Arya notes:

The Long Canal = the Trident

the green copper domes of the Palace of Truth = the green men on the Isle of Faces

The two square towers, the Prestayns and Antaryons, straddling the canal = the Twin Towers of the Freys

The sweet water river aqueduct = the Frey's bridge between the two towers

Silty Town = the Neck

The Titan = the Water Tower, also Walder Frey himself

If I am correct in identifying the Palace of Truth as being a parallel to the Isle of Faces, then the green copper domes are either the weirwood trees on the island, or they are the Green Men themselves. The word "domes" can be both the tops of human heads or treetops. 

 

Edited by Melifeather

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1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I don’t always agree with you but I always appreciate your novel approach to the text. It helps me expand my own thinking.

This could be a good segue though. Without explanation, can you (or anyone for that matter!) break down your theories or predictions into bullet points that we could then reference once Winds/Dream is released? 

I’ll start:

1)R+L=J

2)Tower of Joy is in Dorne.

3)There was an inner and outer Kingsguard and group that was involved in Rhaegar’s Prince that Was Promised prophecy.

4)Tourney if Harrenhal and Lyanna’s disappearance are further apart than we are led to believe.

5)if Aegon is (f)Aegon, then I think he is Ashara Dayne’s son (not daughter) and Septa Lenore is Ashara Dayne.

You want my predictions? Or do you want text to support my reasoning? Because the latter would require a lot of text! I have written extensively on all of these subjects - entire essays, so I could just insert links to where I've already posted my reasoning?

1) I'm very firmly convinced that Jon's parents are Ned and Ashara.

2) the tower of joy where Ned fought the Kingsguard was at Maegor's Holdfast during the Sack. If Ned went to Starfall, he sailed there from Storm's End. The Prince's Pass is not a road that leads to Starfall. Furthermore, I suspect the tower long fallen where Lyanna was found were the ruins of Whitewalls.

3) Rhaegar may have been interested in prophecy, but he already believed his son Aegon was the Prince that was Promised. He was with Elia on Dragonstone when Aegon was born so he could not have abducted Lyanna. After Elia was well enough, I theorize that they sailed from Dragonstone to Dorne to swap out baby Aegon for safety. Rhaegar was planning a coup and would have wanted his heir to be safe. I don't believe the Kingsguard helped him with anything. They were Aerys's men to command. Once Rhaegar and Elia returned from the south, Aerys gave them the job of keeping her guarded in Maegor's Holdfast inside the royal apartments.

4) The tourney at Harrenhal and Lyanna's abduction are only two months or less apart. The tourney occurred in Nov/Dec 281 and Lyanna is noted as missing in Jan 282.

5) Young Griff is Aegon and Septa Lemore is Rhaella. Ashara remained at home as Wylla.

Edited by Melifeather

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11 hours ago, alienarea said:

In short, the dragon demands a virgin as a sacrifice?

Not virgin sacrifice. Child sacrifice = dragonseed.

I have contradicting ideas regarding Aerys and his "dragonseed". Rhaella's multiple miscarriages and infant deaths are highly suspect. We are told only death can pay for life, and Daenerys sacrificed her unborn son, plus Mirri, in order to hatch her dragon eggs.

We aren't given all of the details of the tragedy at Summerhal, but many readers suspect that Aegon V was trying to hatch dragon eggs. Rhaella was in attendance and pregnant with Rhaegar at the time. Ser Duncan the Tall is noted as saving some people from the fire, and I think he carried Rhaella out of the flames to safety at the cost of his own life. This would be an inverted parallel to when Jorah Mormont carried Daenerys into Mirri's tent. Jorah carried Daenerys in, while Duncan carried Rhaella out. Rhaego died and Rhaegar lived.

Rhaella lost eight children, but three survived: Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys. There are three possible ways the eight perished:

1) they really did die of natural causes

2) somebody was poisoning Rhaella in order to prevent the "child of three" from occurring

3) Aerys was sacrificing his own children in attempts to hatch dragon eggs

Edited by Melifeather

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On 1/19/2020 at 4:28 AM, Lady Rhodes said:

Ah, I don’t agree: I think the text clearly states he is speaking in reference to his or Jory’s current location in Kings Landing

And the ridge where the 8 cairns Ned built? Where's that exactly? Why did he build cairns for the dead and not proper funerals, since he was right there outside Maegor's Holdfast?
Is there even a 'ridge' near Maegor's Holdfast?

5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I know you guys are poking fun at me.

I was genuinely poking fun before (not at you) , at a "you muggles" comment. But just because people question you doesn't mean they are poking fun. You have very interesting ideas, that are worth following up. People genuinely want to know the backing for them. Even me.

The possibility that, once shown the text you use, they don't agree, doesn't mean they were poking fun when they asked.

5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I kind of feel like I'm dealing with Trump supporters over here! :lmao: 

Perhaps leave the politics out of it? 

5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

If the followers of Heresy aren't open-minded enough to seriously take a look at it, then who will?

Do you think its possible people may take a serious look and still disagree?

Is disagreement always because of close-mindedness?

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3 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

This could be a good segue though. Without explanation, can you (or anyone for that matter!) break down your theories or predictions into bullet points that we could then reference once Winds/Dream is released? 

I’ll start:

I'll start by prefacing that IMO all ideas and predictions are up for redevelopment with new data. New book means new data means revised ideas and understanding.
For example: before ADwD I thought Ashara was fair-haired, purple eyed and probably was in love with Ned at some stage (though not N+A=J). Now I know she had dark hair and am fairly confident that she never had any significant relationship with Ned. Perhaps after TWoW I will be sure she had red hair and bore Ned twins? I very much doubt that now, but GRRM is good at this game...

Quote

1)R+L=J

Ditto.

Quote

2)Tower of Joy is in Dorne.

Ditto. In the Princess Pass. Likely an old abandoned watchtower in the foothills to one side, with an overview of the Pass but not easy access from the main travel route.

Quote

3)There was an inner and outer Kingsguard and group that was involved in Rhaegar’s Prince that Was Promised prophecy.

I wouldn't characterise them as "inner" and "outer". There was the KG, and some of them Rhaegar was close to and trusted, others he was not close to.

Quote

4)Tourney if Harrenhal and Lyanna’s disappearance are further apart than we are led to believe.

Well, it seemed to be about a year, initially, then newer data suggest much less, without being clear or definitive. Definitely more than two months.

Quote

5)if Aegon is (f)Aegon, then I think he is Ashara Dayne’s son (not daughter) and Septa Lenore is Ashara Dayne.

Aegon is either the Pisswater Prince, or actually Aegon. Lemore is Ashara, and believes (maybe has been deceived, maybe not) he really is Aegon. She was recruited by Varys to take the child into hidden exile in Essos - Connington was brought in to the plot later. Her own child either died, or was taken in by her Mother as Ashara's 'sister' Allyria.

And I'll repeat, any of that is subject to change with new data. Thats just the best, IMO, we have, based on the data we have so far.

Edited by corbon
minor tidying

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2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

You want my predictions? Or do you want text to support my reasoning? Because the latter would require a lot of text! I have written extensively on all of these subjects - entire essays, so I could just insert links to where I've already posted my reasoning?

1) I'm very firmly convinced that Jon's parents are Ned and Ashara.

2) the tower of joy where Ned fought the Kingsguard was at Maegor's Holdfast during the Sack. If Ned went to Starfall, he sailed there from Storm's End. The Prince's Pass is not a road that leads to Starfall. Furthermore, I suspect the tower long fallen where Lyanna was found were the ruins of Whitewalls.

3) Rhaegar may have been interested in prophecy, but he already believed his son Aegon was the Prince that was Promised. He was with Elia on Dragonstone when Aegon was born so he could not have abducted Lyanna. After Elia was well enough, I theorize that they sailed from Dragonstone to Dorne to swap out baby Aegon for safety. Rhaegar was planning a coup and would have wanted his heir to be safe. I don't believe the Kingsguard helped him with anything. They were Aerys's men to command. Once Rhaegar and Elia returned from the south, Aerys gave them the job of keeping her guarded in Maegor's Holdfast inside the royal apartments.

4) The tourney at Harrenhal and Lyanna's abduction are only two months or less apart. The tourney occurred in Nov/Dec 281 and Lyanna is noted as missing in Jan 282.

5) Young Griff is Aegon and Septa Lemore is Rhaella. Ashara remained at home as Wylla.

Just predictions! 

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3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

You want my predictions? Or do you want text to support my reasoning? Because the latter would require a lot of text! I have written extensively on all of these subjects - entire essays, so I could just insert links to where I've already posted my reasoning?

1) I'm very firmly convinced that Jon's parents are Ned and Ashara.

2) the tower of joy where Ned fought the Kingsguard was at Maegor's Holdfast during the Sack. If Ned went to Starfall, he sailed there from Storm's End. The Prince's Pass is not a road that leads to Starfall. Furthermore, I suspect the tower long fallen where Lyanna was found were the ruins of Whitewalls.

3) Rhaegar may have been interested in prophecy, but he already believed his son Aegon was the Prince that was Promised. He was with Elia on Dragonstone when Aegon was born so he could not have abducted Lyanna. After Elia was well enough, I theorize that they sailed from Dragonstone to Dorne to swap out baby Aegon for safety. Rhaegar was planning a coup and would have wanted his heir to be safe. I don't believe the Kingsguard helped him with anything. They were Aerys's men to command. Once Rhaegar and Elia returned from the south, Aerys gave them the job of keeping her guarded in Maegor's Holdfast inside the royal apartments.

4) The tourney at Harrenhal and Lyanna's abduction are only two months or less apart. The tourney occurred in Nov/Dec 281 and Lyanna is noted as missing in Jan 282.

5) Young Griff is Aegon and Septa Lemore is Rhaella. Ashara remained at home as Wylla.

Just predictions! 
 

@corbon We align quite a bit. And in reference to the cairns/Tower of Joy, I was arguing that the Tower of Joy was in Dorne and when he refers to the tower as far to the south, he was referencing his current location, whereas @Melifeather takes it as Winterfell. Just to clarify!

And to the people answering, your predictions don’t have to relate to mine. Those are just a few that I have. Any predictions referring to anything! 

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On 1/18/2020 at 10:59 AM, Black Crow said:

Now, taking this business of the Others a stage further. What is the nature and purpose of such a transformation?

Maester Luwin tells us of how the Tree-huggers could do marvellous things, one of them being the apparent ability to transform into trees and sich. This, both he and ourselves have rationalised as a combination of camouflage and glamours, but what if it isn't? What if the Green Men are actually transformed using that same magic, to become Others made of plant fibre rather than Ice.

In such a context this would fit in with the "guardian" role which we've speculated for the Walkers ?

 

I don't know what to think of the Green Men.  Foliate Man is a bit too Ent-ish for me.  I have wondered about Martin's use of the terms  Soldier Pine and Sentinel Tree though.  We know souls can go into trees and that bodies can be part of the tree as in weirwood tree.  And I wonder about the origins of the Order of the Green Hand.  We know that Howland has talked to the green men and that he can talk to trees.  I don't know if they are one and the same.  I imagine that anyone spending any length of time of the God's Isle might find their feet transforming into tree roots. 

On another subject, I am re-reading Heart of Darkness and I get it.   The Roosian/Coldhands, an unfathomable creature that shouldn't exist and Kurtz/Bloodraven, the skeletal creature who looks like he crawled out of a hole in the ground, full of bones.  The attack on the steamboat just as it arrives at Inner Station and the wights outside the cave of skulls.   I've started Part III.   

Edited by LynnS

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