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Black Crow

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I really think you've discovered that He Who Shall Not Be Named is Bran, which makes me think that Rh'llor has/had a human source too. The glass candles seem to be the opposite of weirwood trees, so I'm thinking Rh'llor sits behind a glass candle.

Mel is pretty certain the HE exists and J'aqen refers to him as 'him of fire'.  He could be someone that Moqorro is referring to here:

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

And perhaps he was not so wrong. Almost a decade had passed since the Laughing Lion headed out from Lannisport, and Gerion had never returned. The men Lord Tywin sent to seek after him had traced his course as far as Volantis, where half his crew had deserted him and he had bought slaves to replace them. No free man would willingly sign aboard a ship whose captain spoke openly of his intent to sail into the Smoking Sea. "So those are fires of the Fourteen Flames we're seeing, reflected on the clouds?"

"Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is not wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god's own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men."

"Some smaller than others." Valyria. It was written that on the day of Doom every hill for five hundred miles had split asunder to fill the air with ash and smoke and fire, blazes so hot and hungry that even the dragons in the sky were engulfed and consumed. Great rents had opened in the earth, swallowing palaces, temples, entire towns. Lakes boiled or turned to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons, and to the north the ground splintered and collapsed and fell in on itself and an angry sea came rushing in. The proudest city in all the world was gone in an instant, its fabled empire vanished in a day, the Lands of the Long Summer scorched and drowned and blighted.

 

 Edit:  What if only 13 flames perished and one was the cause of the Doom.  What if he escaped to Braavos? 

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I've suggested Lemore is Griff's mother.  Even if that's wrong, I suspect she's hiding her past.  This doesn't imply that she is not a real Septa. Many different reasons drive people to religious life, and even if she is only there to hide her previous life, it is more likely she became a real Septa than she is running around pretending to be one. 

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On 1/31/2020 at 12:03 PM, alienarea said:

I have always wanted for Lady Stoneheart to pass her life on to Jon as a final act of forgiving / accepting / making peace, but that would require about five more books.

I don’t see Lady Stoneheart ever finding it within her stoney heart to forgive Jon.  In fact, I believe it would be the opposite.  Since her return, Stoneheart seems to be only the darkest aspects of Catelyn returned.  If anything her hatred of Jon would be one of the few things that have probably been passed on from her life to her “rebirth”.

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Lady Stoneheart seems to be of a single minded motivation - revenge for Rob and the Red Wedding.  I doubt she'd have anything against Jon if they meet, she probably barely remembers him. 

The problem with her resurrecting Jon is she too far away. 

I agree that this is her immediate motivation, but assuming she gets what she wants, then what?  Does she lay down and finally die or does she secure what she believes is her children’s birth right?

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A trestle table had been set up across the cave, in a cleft in the rock. Behind it sat a woman all in grey, cloaked and hooded. In her hands was a crown, a bronze circlet ringed by iron swords. She was studying it, her fingers stroking the blades as if to test their sharpness.

And if Jon Is in fact resurrected does Jon come back as a similar revenant, who is led by his deepest desires?

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That morning he called it first. “I’m Lord of Winterfell!” he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, “You can’t be Lord of Winterfell, you’re bastard-born. My lady mother says you can’t ever be the Lord of Winterfell.”
I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he’d taken.
In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm.

Is there going to be a reckoning over Winterfell?  One that would make this thought of Jon fairly ironic?

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He would be a Sworn Brother of the Night’s Watch soon, and face worse dangers than Catelyn Tully Stark.

ETA: Obviously if Jon hasn't been resurrected, I don't see any motivation for Stoneheart to give up her existence for Jon to rise.  Even in life she's hated Jon and everything that he represents, especially since she still considers him a threat for her family's inheritance.

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47 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree that this is her immediate motivation, but assuming she gets what she wants, then what?  Does she lay down and finally die or does she secure what she believes is her children’s birth right?

And if Jon Is in fact resurrected does Jon come back as a similar revenant, who is led by his deepest desires?

Is there going to be a reckoning over Winterfell?  One that would make this thought of Jon fairly ironic?

ETA: Obviously if Jon hasn't been resurrected, I don't see any motivation for Stoneheart to give up her existence for Jon to rise.  Even in life she's hated Jon and everything that he represents, especially since she still considers him a threat for her family's inheritance.

I think a lot of readers expect Jon to die and be resurrected, but wouldn’t it be interesting for two undead creatures to encounter each other? If Jon makes it down to Winterfell, would he continue south? I wonder what could happen if un-dead Jon went up against Lady Stoneheart?

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5 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I think a lot of readers expect Jon to die and be resurrected, but wouldn’t it be interesting for two undead creatures to encounter each other? If Jon makes it down to Winterfell, would he continue south? I wonder what could happen if un-dead Jon went up against Lady Stoneheart?

It would be interesting wouldn’t it?  The fact that GRRM grumbles so much about the HBO show not creating Stoneheart makes me wonder if she plays a vital role until the end of the series, a role that had to be assumed by others, perhaps Arya and/or Sansa.  The HBO show kind of teased a conflict between Sansa and Jon over Winterfell (until that like many of their other storylines just kind of fell by the wayside).  

A more natural conflict, would be undead Jon versus undead Cat.  A conflict that started in AGOT and whose repercussions to Jon are continued in ADWD.  

The only issue is whether there is enough room left in the story to fit this in.

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18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree that this is her immediate motivation, but assuming she gets what she wants, then what?  Does she lay down and finally die or does she secure what she believes is her children’s birth right?

And if Jon Is in fact resurrected does Jon come back as a similar revenant, who is led by his deepest desires?

Is there going to be a reckoning over Winterfell?  One that would make this thought of Jon fairly ironic?

ETA: Obviously if Jon hasn't been resurrected, I don't see any motivation for Stoneheart to give up her existence for Jon to rise.  Even in life she's hated Jon and everything that he represents, especially since she still considers him a threat for her family's inheritance.

Stoneheart cannot ever be satisfied.  She wants endless suffering of anyone connected to the Red Wedding, it will never be enough.  At some point, no one will be left alive she can take revenge on, and then I would expect her to just lay down and die - if she is still around. 

Jon will come back with the same singular purpose - but in his case, he just gave his Winterfell speech.  So he might be obsessed with Winterfell, the Stark family, the Watch and/or the Boltons. 

Did we ever get an explanation why Berric choose to resurrect Catylyn at the cost of his own life?  What was his motivation? 

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10 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Stoneheart cannot ever be satisfied.  She wants endless suffering of anyone connected to the Red Wedding, it will never be enough.  At some point, no one will be left alive she can take revenge on, and then I would expect her to just lay down and die - if she is still around. 

Jon will come back with the same singular purpose - but in his case, he just gave his Winterfell speech.  So he might be obsessed with Winterfell, the Stark family, the Watch and/or the Boltons. 

Did we ever get an explanation why Berric choose to resurrect Catylyn at the cost of his own life?  What was his motivation? 

I think GRRM probably has more of a story arc for Cat then just hanging out in the Riverlands killing Freys.  And don’t forget that Roose Bolton was the one who killed Robb right in front of her.  And now Roose is parked in Winterfell allegedly marrying Arya to Ramsay and making Ramsay lord of Winterfell.  Surely that won’t sit too well with Stoneheart.  

So I definitely see that it’s possible that both undead Cat and undead Jon may turn their sights to Winterfell.

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4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think GRRM probably has more of a story arc for Cat then just hanging out in the Riverlands killing Freys.  And don’t forget that Roose Bolton was the one who killed Robb right in front of her.  And now Roose is parked in Winterfell allegedly marrying Arya to Ramsay and making Ramsay lord of Winterfell.  Surely that won’t sit too well with Stoneheart.  

So I definitely see that it’s possible that both undead Cat and undead Jon may turn their sights to Winterfell.

Possibly, but I don't see Jon getting to Winterfell while dead.  If they interact, it will be after Jon is raised. 

Given what GRRM said about Gandolf's death, and Cat having a purpose, I believe she exists as a warning about what could happen with Jon. 

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43 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Possibly, but I don't see Jon getting to Winterfell while dead.  If they interact, it will be after Jon is raised

:agree:

44 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Given what GRRM said about Gandolf's death, and Cat having a purpose, I believe she exists as a warning about what could happen with Jon.

Possible.  We are running out of time.

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23 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Possibly, but I don't see Jon getting to Winterfell while dead.  If they interact, it will be after Jon is raised. 

Given what GRRM said about Gandolf's death, and Cat having a purpose, I believe she exists as a warning about what could happen with Jon. 

True, but let’s think about Beric. He doesn’t seem, throughout his multiple incarnations, to change as drastically as Lady Stonehart did in one transformation. So, while Beric admits that he is less of himself each time, could it also be possible that he has it wrong? Could it strengthen your desires that you had at death? Ie Beric acting to save the small folk that is not related to his house is him being sacrificial, so his “self” becomes less and less a part of him, whereas Lady Stonehart has the grief and bitterness of the Red Wedding, and Jon could have deep desire to save people (Wildings, the Seven Kingdoms, Arya) 

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26 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

True, but let’s think about Beric. He doesn’t seem, throughout his multiple incarnations, to change as drastically as Lady Stonehart did in one transformation. So, while Beric admits that he is less of himself each time, could it also be possible that he has it wrong? Could it strengthen your desires that you had at death? Ie Beric acting to save the small folk that is not related to his house is him being sacrificial, so his “self” becomes less and less a part of him, whereas Lady Stonehart has the grief and bitterness of the Red Wedding, and Jon could have deep desire to save people (Wildings, the Seven Kingdoms, Arya) 

I think it focuses you on whatever was on your mind at death and you no longer care about other things. 

Beric cared about the small folk, and was following House Stark's orders.  He accepted his death as part of combat, and has no special feelings about how he died.  He forgets his family and past life to help small folk, and possibly sacrifices himself for House Stark.

Cat is probably more upset about her death than Beric, but this is overshadowed by her feelings of being betrayed by the Freys and losing her son. 

Jon is on a high to take back Winterfell and possibly take back his role as a Stark, and was betrayed by the Watch.  We don't really know his state of mind at the end.  He might take vengeance on his betrayers, the entire Watch, or may forgive them.  He may be obsessed with the Bolton, Winterfell or neither. 

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1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I think that the short answer in all of this is that unlike the Mummers travesty. them as comes back comes back wrong

Yea, Jon wasn't any different before or after his resurrection in the show was he?  This was the delineation in the show where you knew they were completely off script.  Once the source material ran out, they resurrected Jon just because they had to and then continued on like his death never happened.  

I guess he had some wildlings impressed that he came back to life.  But that's the only thing of note that I can think of.

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17 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

True, but let’s think about Beric. He doesn’t seem, throughout his multiple incarnations, to change as drastically as Lady Stonehart did in one transformation. So, while Beric admits that he is less of himself each time, could it also be possible that he has it wrong? Could it strengthen your desires that you had at death? Ie Beric acting to save the small folk that is not related to his house is him being sacrificial, so his “self” becomes less and less a part of him, whereas Lady Stonehart has the grief and bitterness of the Red Wedding, and Jon could have deep desire to save people (Wildings, the Seven Kingdoms, Arya) 

It's a good point that Beric is not the monster that Cat is.  I suppose it may be because Cat was further gone than Beric was when she got resurrected.  So assuming that Jon is dead, it will be interesting to see how long GRRM lets Jon's body sit before he gets raised.  If the Jesus parallels continue with Jon than I expect it to be three days.

The fact that at the time of Jon's death (if indeed that's what we witnessed) his last thought was:

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Pain washed over him.  Stick them with the pointy end.

 

Then my guess is that George plans on returning Jon as a revenant not too dissimilar from Cat, but perhaps not as far gone.

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's a good point that Beric is not the monster that Cat is.  I suppose it may be because Cat was further gone than Beric was when she got resurrected.  So assuming that Jon is dead, it will be interesting to see how long GRRM lets Jon's body sit before he gets raised.  If the Jesus parallels continue with Jon than I expect it to be three days.

The fact that at the time of Jon's death (if indeed that's what we witnessed) his last thought was:

Then my guess is that George plans on returning Jon as a revenant not too dissimilar from Cat, but perhaps not as far gone.

Let's not forget Ghost. Maybe Jon comes back mute.

Or, he's brought back in human form but can only bark.

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4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think that the short answer in all of this is that unlike the Mummers travesty. them as comes back comes back wrong

Sort of like Pet Semetary without the burial.

Its noteworthy that one of his last thoughts was to “stick them with the pointy end”. The circumstances upon death does seem to have an influence on the undead.

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