Melifeather Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 I’ve always associated the blue flame with the blue eyes of death and being so cold it burned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dyanna Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 @St Daga, I see what you mean about the imagery of the swords themselves. You are correct about the color imagery connected to each Dawn and Ice as of the last time they were each described. And we know that what we currently assume to be (f)lightbringer is also glowing with yellow orange and red, though it gives no heat. And I also agree with you about Doran and Rickard being more similar in their scheming. But I see A similarity between Ned and Doran in their naïveté and the way their values unintentionally get in the way of the success of their plans. The hard part seems to be in knowing which exact characteristics to put our focus on. I think that’s why I have a difficult time deciding on just one answer. There’s almost too many possibilities or combinations of possibilities that are possible. That said, I really enjoy your interpretation. I think I just need to let it settle in my mind a bit. The only part that worries me a bit is that I’m not sure if it’s more likely that GRRM would go with opposing colors or temperatures. Both seem to be indicated in ice and fire. Seems there should be a train of thought to follow from there, but I’m missing it right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 I posted this on the general forum on the subject of parallels and also posting it here on the subject of Bran's coma dream: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 17 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said: I’m not sure if it’s more likely that GRRM would go with opposing colors or temperatures. Both seem to be indicated in ice and fire. Seems there should be a train of thought to follow from there, but I’m missing it right now. I think he is capable of trying most anything, but I am not sure what he could be trying to do, if the color blue indicates both a cold so intense that it burns, while at the same time we know that blue flames are usually seen has hotter than their reddish counterparts. Certainly the substances that are burned could also make a flames color very. I am never quite sure what I fully believe but I just try to keep investigating the text to see what stands out to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 Quote “I admire Tolkien greatly. His books had enormous influence on me. And the trope that he sort of established—the idea of the Dark Lord and his Evil Minions—in the hands of lesser writers over the years and decades has not served the genre well. It has been beaten to death. The battle of good and evil is a great subject for any book and certainly for a fantasy book, but I think ultimately the battle between good and evil is weighed within the individual human heart and not necessarily between an army of people dressed in white and an army of people dressed in black. When I look at the world, I see that most real living breathing human beings are grey.” - George R.R. Martin What I take from this quote is that the idea of a Dark Lord and his Minions is not served well in the hands of lesser writers. Which is an interesting statement. He may well employ something that is Vader-ish, but something far more complex than a Voldemort or a Darth Vader. Perhaps something more along the lines of a Morgoth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 1, 2020 Author Share Posted January 1, 2020 1 hour ago, LynnS said: The battle of good and evil is a great subject for any book and certainly for a fantasy book, but I think ultimately the battle between good and evil is weighed within the individual human heart Sounds suspiciously like a one-line synopsis for The Heart of Darkness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 I thought I posted this link but I guess I didn't. Complete Children of Hurin including the introduction by C. Tolkien: https://archive.org/stream/J.R.R.TolkienTheChildrenOfHurin/J.R.R.Tolkien - The Children of Hurin_djvu.txt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 Did anyone get any new books for Christmas this year? I was given The Journeyer (Marco Polo) by Gary Jennings (author of Aztec). I couldn't put it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 1, 2020 Share Posted January 1, 2020 And Happy New Year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Rhodes Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 @Melifeather - I think you are going to love this. I am going to go with your presumption and see where it takes me that Lyanna and/or the ToJ was not in Dorne! I picked up Game to reread, and I took some time to look at the maps at the beginning and the end. I found myself looking at the Three Sisters. Now, was it Davos that heard the tale the “Ned Stark’s bastard” was a fisherman’s daughter? Is this presumption that he fathered Jon when fleeing the Vale? If that is the assumption, he must have returned togather Jon, correct? Is there any textual notes of him returning? Now, I know we may disagree in the specifics here but what if a pregnant Lyanna was hidden on the Three Sisters and gave birth in the North? Or more specifically, at Gray Water Watch? What implications may this have? I have heard theories that Jon and Meera may be twins; does this become more plausible? just tossing some thoughts out there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 I am not resisting the idea of j=r+l, but it seems for almost a whole decade, whenever it comes up, it dominates the hersey thread with everyone posting old arguments and theories without anything new being posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said: @Melifeather - I think you are going to love this. I am going to go with your presumption and see where it takes me that Lyanna and/or the ToJ was not in Dorne! I picked up Game to reread, and I took some time to look at the maps at the beginning and the end. I found myself looking at the Three Sisters. Now, was it Davos that heard the tale the “Ned Stark’s bastard” was a fisherman’s daughter? Is this presumption that he fathered Jon when fleeing the Vale? If that is the assumption, he must have returned togather Jon, correct? Is there any textual notes of him returning? Now, I know we may disagree in the specifics here but what if a pregnant Lyanna was hidden on the Three Sisters and gave birth in the North? Or more specifically, at Gray Water Watch? What implications may this have? I have heard theories that Jon and Meera may be twins; does this become more plausible? just tossing some thoughts out there Another retread, but I posted my theory that Ned seems to have lost a big chunk of time doing something we don't know about in the first part of Robert's Rebellion. Taking a boat around the three sisters is hardly the fastest most direct route from the Vale to Winterfell, and Ned calls his banners after Robert and Jon have been fighting a while. All of war is breaking out, the King wants his head, and Ned took the scenic route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said: @Melifeather - I think you are going to love this. I am going to go with your presumption and see where it takes me that Lyanna and/or the ToJ was not in Dorne! I picked up Game to reread, and I took some time to look at the maps at the beginning and the end. I found myself looking at the Three Sisters. Now, was it Davos that heard the tale the “Ned Stark’s bastard” was a fisherman’s daughter? Is this presumption that he fathered Jon when fleeing the Vale? If that is the assumption, he must have returned togather Jon, correct? Is there any textual notes of him returning? Now, I know we may disagree in the specifics here but what if a pregnant Lyanna was hidden on the Three Sisters and gave birth in the North? Or more specifically, at Gray Water Watch? What implications may this have? I have heard theories that Jon and Meera may be twins; does this become more plausible? just tossing some thoughts out there Gods we need Winds!!! I don’t believe Lyanna gave birth even though I do think she was raped “hundreds” of times. I think Ashara was the fishermans daughter and in disguise as Wylla. Lord Borel saw a pregnant woman, so whoever she was she was already pregnant when Ned sailed the Bite with her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 8 minutes ago, Brad Stark said: Another retread, but I posted my theory that Ned seems to have lost a big chunk of time doing something we don't know about in the first part of Robert's Rebellion. Taking a boat around the three sisters is hardly the fastest most direct route from the Vale to Winterfell, and Ned calls his banners after Robert and Jon have been fighting a while. All of war is breaking out, the King wants his head, and Ned took the scenic route. Sailing across the Bite to White Harbor was the quickest way that avoided enemies. There were loyalists surrounding the Vale. Why else did you think Jon Arryn had his first major battle so close to home at Gulltown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Rhodes Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Melifeather said: Sailing across the Bite to White Harbor was the quickest way that avoided enemies. There were loyalists surrounding the Vale. Why else did you think Jon Arryn had his first major battle so close to home at Gulltown? Yes, I am inclined to agree with you here. i recall about a year ago you and I were a part of a heated thread regarding the timeline of the rebellion. That is part of my piqued interest in the possibility of Lyanna being on the sisters. I know you disagree about Lyanna being pregnant but here me out here. If a pregnant woman was with Ned when he flees the Vale and we operate under my assumption that the pregnant woman was Lyanna, what if she was hidden and brought to Ned in the Vale? This would make the child (Jon or whoever) much older than we thought and would affect some timelines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 3 hours ago, Brad Stark said: I am not resisting the idea of j=r+l, but it seems for almost a whole decade, whenever it comes up, it dominates the hersey thread with everyone posting old arguments and theories without anything new being posted. I'm doing my best to bring something new to heresy. There are a couple more things I can pull out of the Introduction to Children of Hurin that might be germane to the discussion. It would only be speculation. but we don't seem to have much else to go on. It would be nice if members did the legwork of reading the introduction from the link I posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Rhodes Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 4 hours ago, LynnS said: I'm doing my best to bring something new to heresy. There are a couple more things I can pull out of the Introduction to Children of Hurin that might be germane to the discussion. It would only be speculation. but we don't seem to have much else to go on. It would be nice if members did the legwork of reading the introduction from the link I posted. I do agree with @Brad Stark. Trying not to let it be the same rehashing, so I apologize if my thoughts re:the fisherman’s daughter aren’t new! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said: I do agree with @Brad Stark. Trying not to let it be the same rehashing, so I apologize if my thoughts re:the fisherman’s daughter aren’t new! That's perfectly alright. You don't have to apologize. Your comment reminds me of Pretty Pig's thoughts on the Fisherman's Daughter. She speculated that the 'fisherman' was Howland Reed based on descriptions in the text. So perhaps his 'daughter' was Lyanna. I can't recall when this event occurs in the timeline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 10 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said: Yes, I am inclined to agree with you here. i recall about a year ago you and I were a part of a heated thread regarding the timeline of the rebellion. That is part of my piqued interest in the possibility of Lyanna being on the sisters. I know you disagree about Lyanna being pregnant but here me out here. If a pregnant woman was with Ned when he flees the Vale and we operate under my assumption that the pregnant woman was Lyanna, what if she was hidden and brought to Ned in the Vale? This would make the child (Jon or whoever) much older than we thought and would affect some timelines. I do believe Jon is older than readers believe and probably even older than he thinks, otherwise the text wouldn't seem to stress his graceful build to Robb's robust build. I think the comparison between Monster and Aemon Steelsong is meant to be a parallel to Jon and Robb. 1 hour ago, LynnS said: That's perfectly alright. You don't have to apologize. Your comment reminds me of Pretty Pig's thoughts on the Fisherman's Daughter. She speculated that the 'fisherman' was Howland Reed based on descriptions in the text. So perhaps his 'daughter' was Lyanna. I can't recall when this event occurs in the timeline. If the baby swap that Jon arranged is a repeat of the past, then the fisherman was a maester just like Maester Aemon Targaryen. It may have been that Maester Walys was with Ned in the Vale and was traveling back to Winterfell when he died. Gilly is "Wylla", Sam is Ned, and Maester Aemon is Maester Walys. Aemon Steelsong is the babe brought back to Sam's home to be raised as his son, while Jon Snow is the babe brought back to Winterfell to be raised as Ned's son. Aemon is Mance's son and neither Gilly nor Sam are his true parents, but the parallel to the past is an inversion, because Jon's true parents were "Wylla" (Ashara) and Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 2, 2020 Share Posted January 2, 2020 7 hours ago, LynnS said: I'm doing my best to bring something new to heresy. There are a couple more things I can pull out of the Introduction to Children of Hurin that might be germane to the discussion. It would only be speculation. but we don't seem to have much else to go on. It would be nice if members did the legwork of reading the introduction from the link I posted. I haven't read that book, so I can't add to that conversation. Sounds like something I would like though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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