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Black Crow

Heresy 229 and hitting the refresh button

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5 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Why are you airing a personal grievance on Heresy? Wouldn’t this be more appropriate to address in a PM? I’m happy to go over anything you wish to discuss - privately. 

Honestly, I have had some bad experiences both here and elsewhere with people using private conversations, of both myself and others against to increase conflict and involve others, especially in relation to these forums. Although I believe that I again owe you an apology. You are one of the people around here who’s private conversations actually REMAIN private. I need to remember to look at the person and not the experience sometimes.

I do understand that a lot of this stuff is ancient history for some, but I’ve had some reasons to reflect on my forum related experiences lately and some of it still feels quite raw and personal to me. I mean, the guy who was for all practical purposes my best friend at the time, that I talked to for hours daily, and shared some quite personal information with turned out to be his own wife? That isn’t normal. 

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4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

You haven’t offended me. I’m happy to re-explore anything you’d like. 

Good. I’m glad. Sometimes I do forget how much I appreciate your direct approach. I need to remember that I tend to sound pretty abrasive myself at times. It’s just nice to actually be able to solve issues through communication rather than making them worse.  I still feel badly about how out of hand things did get with the arguments a few years back. I know I took out a bunch of unearned hostility on you. Luckily you have managed to take it all in good grace. 

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30 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Honestly, I have had some bad experiences both here and elsewhere with people using private conversations, of both myself and others against to increase conflict and involve others, especially in relation to these forums. Although I believe that I again owe you an apology. You are one of the people around here who’s private conversations actually REMAIN private. I need to remember to look at the person and not the experience sometimes.

I do understand that a lot of this stuff is ancient history for some, but I’ve had some reasons to reflect on my forum related experiences lately and some of it still feels quite raw and personal to me. I mean, the guy who was for all practical purposes my best friend at the time, that I talked to for hours daily, and shared some quite personal information with turned out to be his own wife? That isn’t normal. 

I am available to revisit anything you’d like, but I do feel we should take our conversation elsewhere. The people of Heresy are not interested in this. Anyone curious can ask to join our PM.

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16 hours ago, alienarea said:

I get a Dance of the She-Dragons vibe around here lately ;) 

 

Agreed. We have run this thread for the past nine years and more without this nonsense. Calm down please. Hopefully we only have a few months to go before Winds of Winter appears and moves discussion to new levels. Lets not fall apart now.

If anyone has a grievance, use the PM facility, or step back and reflect. Don't use the public forum - it exists to discuss Westeros.

:commie:

 

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22 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Agreed. We have run this thread for the past nine years and more without this nonsense. Calm down please. Hopefully we only have a few months to go before Winds of Winter appears and moves discussion to new levels. Lets not fall apart now.

If anyone has a grievance, use the PM facility, or step back and reflect. Don't use the public forum - it exists to discuss Westeros.

:commie:

 

You don't want a new career as an agony aunt? Me neither.

Returning to recent subject matters, what Bran saw up north in his coma dream, I tend to side with Corbon on this. 

I'm prepared to let the mystery be. And that's not saying I don't think the matter merits analysis, it does and I welcome and enjoy it. I just think we don't have enough data points to mount a defining theory.

My personal interpretation is that the horror Bran saw was a metaphor for the concept  of the sacrificial offering of life.

The bodies impaled on spikes of ice were just that ,their souls are now the Others.

The lives sacrificed were offered to stay the advance of the First Men.

Perhaps what Bran saw was proof that the Starks or he himself were responsible for this?

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2 hours ago, redriver said:

You don't want a new career as an agony aunt? Me neither.

Returning to recent subject matters, what Bran saw up north in his coma dream, I tend to side with Corbon on this. 

I'm prepared to let the mystery be. And that's not saying I don't think the matter merits analysis, it does and I welcome and enjoy it. I just think we don't have enough data points to mount a defining theory.

My personal interpretation is that the horror Bran saw was a metaphor for the concept  of the sacrificial offering of life.

The bodies impaled on spikes of ice were just that ,their souls are now the Others.

The lives sacrificed were offered to stay the advance of the First Men.

Perhaps what Bran saw was proof that the Starks or he himself were responsible for this?

Maybe there is a war going on between the CotF and the Others for a long time before the First Men reached Westeros? The "This is when the Others came for the first time" quote (paraphrased) could refer to human history of Westeros only.

Imagine the CotF fighting against the Others for a long time (and for bonus crackpot, the Others rising when the Red Comet returns), and keeping them confined to the Land of Always Winter as long as their greenseers are around in sufficient numbers. Then the First Men appear, weirwoods get chopped, and the Others come for the first time ...

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This is slightly off topic. I have been rereading Game and I have found a few things that have piqued my interest that I have missed.

1) Ned’s recollections of Tower of Joy- I know that I have discussed this with @Melifeather in the past but I thought the text was important here. After he awakens from the leg injury, this NOT a fever dream, he is speaking to Alyn about burying Jory and thinking about burying Martyn Cassel (Jory’s father) in the south. Oh. 356 in my version on the text:

Quote

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel has perished with the rest. Ned has pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eighth cairns upon the ridge. It was said Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crab oh man, Howland Reed. 

Ned is awake, having spoken Vayon Poole and Alyn prior to having this recollection. Thus, while the other fever dreams are suspect, this is not a fever dream. He is in King’s  Landing when he thinks “to the south”, which indicates that the location, the Tower of Joy, is not only south but “far to the south”.

so, while the specificities of what happened are certainly still in question, I think this fairly definitively states that the Tower of Joy and the stand down with the Kingsguard did not occur in King’s Landing. 

2)what is the significance of where Robert Arryn was being fostered? I have assumed that Lysa killed Jon Arryn partially because of the talk of fostering him away. But why the intrigued of “who was he supposed to be fostered?” Robert tells Ned it was Tywin but Catelyn talks to Maester Coleman in the Eyrie and great says Stannis and she is equally intri go ed when Walder Frey says Stannis. Am I forgetting something? 

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24 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

so, while the specificities of what happened are certainly still in question, I think this fairly definitively states that the Tower of Joy and the stand down with the Kingsguard did not occur in King’s Landing. 

The “far to the south” is in reference to where Jory’s father is buried in comparison to Jory’s grandfather at Winterfell - not in comparison to where Ned was sitting. There’s a lot of land south of Winterfell.

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14 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The “far to the south” is in reference to where Jory’s father is buried in comparison to Jory’s grandfather at Winterfell - not in comparison to where Ned was sitting. There’s a lot of land south of Winterfell.

Ah, I don’t agree: I think the text clearly states he is speaking in reference to his or Jory’s current location in Kings Landing

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3 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Ah, I don’t agree: I think the text clearly states he is speaking in reference to his or Jory’s current location in Kings Landing

Yeah, I'd go along with that and apart from anything else this is a novel, not real life.

While most places are "south" of Winterfell, Lord Eddard is indeed lying in King's Landing, and therefore is going to think of Martyn Cassell's grave in relation to King's Landing if he died and was buried there or at least nearby, "south" on the other hand is vague. While that statement can's pin him to the tower in the Prince's Pass, it actually rules out Lord Eddard's current location.

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56 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Maybe there is a war going on between the CotF and the Others for a long time before the First Men reached Westeros? The "This is when the Others came for the first time" quote (paraphrased) could refer to human history of Westeros only.

Imagine the CotF fighting against the Others for a long time (and for bonus crackpot, the Others rising when the Red Comet returns), and keeping them confined to the Land of Always Winter as long as their greenseers are around in sufficient numbers. Then the First Men appear, weirwoods get chopped, and the Others come for the first time ...

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with this, but it rather depends on how exactly the Others are to be defined. GRRM has of course described them as a different kind of life, and hinted as to their ethereal character.

Now if we turn this around slightly the Three-fingered Tree Huggers aint human. They are physically different in size, shape and colouring, and they have powers; they are a different species, but they aint a different form of life.

The Walkers on the other hand are, but the evidence we have strongly suggests that they are not a race, but are created [or transformed] artificially, by means of magic.

Its therefore conceivable that they did exist in the past, but that the ones we're talking about are different in being created from humans

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It’s a matter of grammar and what the subject was in the sentence. The sentence first referenced Rory’s grandfather: 

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:
  Quote

 It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory’s father was buried far to the south.

Jory’s father is buried far to the south of his grandfather. Traditionally the subject (Rory’s grandfather) controls the verb (buried). 
 

We shall have to agree to disagree! 

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Now, taking this business of the Others a stage further. What is the nature and purpose of such a transformation?

Maester Luwin tells us of how the Tree-huggers could do marvellous things, one of them being the apparent ability to transform into trees and sich. This, both he and ourselves have rationalised as a combination of camouflage and glamours, but what if it isn't? What if the Green Men are actually transformed using that same magic, to become Others made of plant fibre rather than Ice.

In such a context this would fit in with the "guardian" role which we've speculated for the Walkers ?

 

Edited by Black Crow

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In Cat of Canals, a parallel is being made between the “green copper domes” of the Palace of Truth to either the weirwood trees or the Green Men, or a hybrid of both, on the Isle of Faces. 

Tree tops and the tops of heads can both be said to be “domes”. The Green Men are described as tree tops and tarnished copper domes or rather the greenish patina that develops on copper. 

Copper embodies the nurturing aspect of women and their youthfulness. It is associated with the matters of love & lust and symbolizes characteristics like charisma, feminine beauty, artistic creativity, affection, caring, and balance. It is also considered a healing metal that teaches about living a fulfilling life. The importance placed on maidenheads seems connected to the symbolism of copper.

Edited by Melifeather

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27 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Green Men are described as tree tops and tarnished copper domes or rather the greenish patina that develops on copper. 

Where?

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14 hours ago, Melifeather said:

In Cat of Canals, a parallel is being made between the “green copper domes” of the Palace of Truth to either the weirwood trees or the Green Men, or a hybrid of both, on the Isle of Faces. 

Tree tops and the tops of heads can both be said to be “domes”. The Green Men are described as tree tops and tarnished copper domes or rather the greenish patina that develops on copper. 

Copper embodies the nurturing aspect of women and their youthfulness. It is associated with the matters of love & lust and symbolizes characteristics like charisma, feminine beauty, artistic creativity, affection, caring, and balance. It is also considered a healing metal that teaches about living a fulfilling life. The importance placed on maidenheads seems connected to the symbolism of copper.

In short, the dragon demands a virgin as a sacrifice?

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I know you guys are poking fun at me. You think I'm reading too much into the text, but I don't think I'm wrong. Over the last two years I've been trying to show you what I see. There's just too much of it to mean nothing. I have shared example after example and you remain unconvinced. I kind of feel like I'm dealing with Trump supporters over here! :lmao: If the followers of Heresy aren't open-minded enough to seriously take a look at it, then who will?

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23 hours ago, Melifeather said:

In Cat of Canals, a parallel is being made between the “green copper domes” of the Palace of Truth to either the weirwood trees or the Green Men, or a hybrid of both, on the Isle of Faces. 

Tree tops and the tops of heads can both be said to be “domes”. The Green Men are described as tree tops and tarnished copper domes or rather the greenish patina that develops on copper. 

Copper embodies the nurturing aspect of women and their youthfulness. It is associated with the matters of love & lust and symbolizes characteristics like charisma, feminine beauty, artistic creativity, affection, caring, and balance. It is also considered a healing metal that teaches about living a fulfilling life. The importance placed on maidenheads seems connected to the symbolism of copper.

Its a straightforward question. Sacrificing virgins is too well established in folklore to be called into question, but where's the textual link between [pale] green copper domes and Green Men and where are they described as "tree tops" ? 

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3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I know you guys are poking fun at me. You think I'm reading too much into the text, but I don't think I'm wrong. Over the last two years I've been trying to show you what I see. There's just too much of it to mean nothing. I have shared example after example and you remain unconvinced. I kind of feel like I'm dealing with Trump supporters over here! :lmao: If the followers of Heresy aren't open-minded enough to seriously take a look at it, then who will?

I don’t always agree with you but I always appreciate your novel approach to the text. It helps me expand my own thinking.

This could be a good segue though. Without explanation, can you (or anyone for that matter!) break down your theories or predictions into bullet points that we could then reference once Winds/Dream is released? 

I’ll start:

1)R+L=J

2)Tower of Joy is in Dorne.

3)There was an inner and outer Kingsguard and group that was involved in Rhaegar’s Prince that Was Promised prophecy.

4)Tourney if Harrenhal and Lyanna’s disappearance are further apart than we are led to believe.

5)if Aegon is (f)Aegon, then I think he is Ashara Dayne’s son (not daughter) and Septa Lenore is Ashara Dayne.

Edited by Lady Rhodes

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