Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Black Crow

Heresy 229 and hitting the refresh button

Recommended Posts

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

How close are these two things to each other?  Is Ser Shadrich's  decpicting the first part of Jojen and Meera's oath on his shield? 

 

 

Two of three I would suggest.Bendy brown and blue for earth and water.

A white mouse with red eyes for ice and fire.

I haven't seen any bronze or iron references yet with Shadrich.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, redriver said:

Two of three I would suggest.Bendy brown and blue for earth and water.

A white mouse with red eyes for ice and fire.

I haven't seen any bronze or iron references yet with Shadrich.

My interpretation of bronze and iron, refers to the crown of the Kings of the North or House Stark.  So when Meera and Jojen make the pledge to bronze and iron, it's  to the crown.  To the protection of House Stark.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed.As said in Catelyn's pov iron and bronze are good colours to ward against the cold.

Just haven't seen it yet with Ser Shadrich.

Hell, I'm even playing with his partners in crime Ser Byron= iron.Morgarth = ?

But it just does not work.My operational stance is that Shadrich may be Howland or maybe not.Having fun wondering what he's up to if he is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, redriver said:

Agreed.As said in Catelyn's pov iron and bronze are good colours to ward against the cold.

Just haven't seen it yet with Ser Shadrich.

Hell, I'm even playing with his partners in crime Ser Byron= iron.Morgarth = ?

But it just does not work.My operational stance is that Shadrich may be Howland or maybe not.Having fun wondering what he's up to if he is.

My stance is the bronze and iron are represented by Sansa or any other Stark.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/22/2020 at 8:56 PM, LynnS said:

To me, it says that the COTF + Bloodraven/The Administration contrived at having the wights hidden before the entry of the cave and keep them there, as a means for trapping the pilgrims in the cave.  Otherwise, they would have dispatched them with fire.

  • There's the typical extreme cold before the wights erupt. It's the cold that even Coldhands feels that makes him prompt to ask whether they see anything (meaning the cave).
  • Those wights knew where to go, because Bran was unable to travel around the lake as Coldhands had instructed him in the previous chapter. Coldhands had told Bran to journey around the lake and not across it. But Bran cannot always distinguish the shoreline from the ice. So he ends up journeying across the ice. There are many pointers that the Others can locate people via frozen surfaces, such as ice lakes. And the hint that wights and Others would be after Bran is in Varamyr's opening POV. At the end of the chapter, Varamyr sees them on the elk. Coldhands has been trying to journey to keep Bran undetected from them: using the weirwood gate instead of a castle's gate directly through the ice wall. That's why Sam is sworn to secrecy. Nobody can reveal Bran's whereabouts in front of the Wall that the Others are using as a spyglass.
  • The CotF and BR don't need wights to keep Meera, Jojen and Bran inside the cave. Bran cannot walk by himself. He has to be carried, which takes energy from his companions, who are already near starvation and exhaustion. They journeyed from the Wall this far north through a landscape that is bereft of prey animals (those have become wights as well) on the back of an elk that died towards the end of its journey and a guy who's dead anyway, who managed to feed the starving children halfway with the meat of mutineers.
  • George provides wights for the wolves to have food.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, LynnS said:

My interpretation of bronze and iron, refers to the crown of the Kings of the North or House Stark.  So when Meera and Jojen make the pledge to bronze and iron, it's  to the crown.  To the protection of House Stark.

I'd suggest that its the other way around. Bronze and Iron are used for the crown precisely because of their significance in representing men in the triangle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, LynnS said:

My stance is the bronze and iron are represented by Sansa or any other Stark.  

There is a potential link in the KOTLT story.Bran envisions Howland as looking like Jojen but dressing like Meera.As in bronze scales and a rusted iron great helm.

There are no references to Ser Shadrich wrt bronze and iron that I can find, as yet.We don't know how he dresses or about his sword.

We do have some info about his shield and sigil which lead us to make comparisons with the KOTL shield. White and red. Laughing and mad.No real associations with any known family or any particular place.

Both connected to ice and fire and thus to the old gods.

So we have two thirds of the Reed oath portrayed in Ser Shadrich's shield.If we had them all it really would be a closed case and the author has this annoying habit of withholding crucial information.

The associations are 5 from 6 really.We just lack iron/bronze references from Ser Shadrich so far.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'd suggest that its the other way around. Bronze and Iron are used for the crown precisely because of their significance in representing men in the triangle

I'm not sure what you mean by men in a triangle.  Sansa surely represents the crown at this point.  It seems to me that Ser Shadrich is showing the first part of the crannogman oath on his shield.  If he is Howland, he has an obligation to protect the crown in the person of Sansa.  I don't see him depicting the crown on his shield in any way that would tip his hand.   That he is in the company of two other hedge knights may be significant for other reasons having nothing to do with the oath.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, redriver said:

There is a potential link in the KOTLT story.Bran envisions Howland as looking like Jojen but dressing like Meera.As in bronze scales and a rusted iron great helm.

There are no references to Ser Shadrich wrt bronze and iron that I can find, as yet.We don't know how he dresses or about his sword.

We do have some info about his shield and sigil which lead us to make comparisons with the KOTL shield. White and red. Laughing and mad.No real associations with any known family or any particular place.

Both connected to ice and fire and thus to the old gods.

So we have two thirds of the Reed oath portrayed in Ser Shadrich's shield.If we had them all it really would be a closed case and the author has this annoying habit of withholding crucial information.

The associations are 5 from 6 really.We just lack iron/bronze references from Ser Shadrich so far.

I agree if we could get a solid bronze and iron reference, it would be case closed.  For me it lies in the meaning of the oath; bronze and iron as represented in the person as respresented by bronze and iron.   Howland makes his allegiance which defines his obligations in that regard.  If bronze and iron represent the crown in the person of Sansa;  then I am not sure that can be depicted on a shield or in the company he keeps.   Littlefinger is the obstacle and he can't know that Shadrich/Howland  defends the crown. . 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure what you mean by men in a triangle.  Sansa surely represents the crown at this point.  It seems to me that Ser Shadrich is showing the first part of the crannogman oath on his shield.  If he is Howland, he has an obligation to protect the crown in the person of Sansa.  I don't see him depicting the crown on his shield in any way that would tip his hand.   That he is in the company of two other hedge knights may be significant for other reasons having nothing to do with the oath.  

I should perhaps have said Man

The Oath is made up of three linked elements: Ice and Fire; Earth and Water; and Bronze and Iron, withe last pairing representing Man

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

There's the typical extreme cold before the wights erupt. It's the cold that even Coldhands feels that makes him prompt to ask whether they see anything (meaning the cave).

Ok, I suppose he could have meant the cave entrance.  I took it to mean that he knew they were upon the cave entrance and could they see anything that presented a danger given that he is fearful of the one's who don't leave any tracks.

18 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Those wights knew where to go, because Bran was unable to travel around the lake as Coldhands had instructed him in the previous chapter. Coldhands had told Bran to journey around the lake and not across it. But Bran cannot always distinguish the shoreline from the ice. So he ends up journeying across the ice. There are many pointers that the Others can locate people via frozen surfaces, such as ice lakes. And the hint that wights and Others would be after Bran is in Varamyr's opening POV. At the end of the chapter, Varamyr sees them on the elk. Coldhands has been trying to journey to keep Bran undetected from them: using the weirwood gate instead of a castle's gate directly through the ice wall. That's why Sam is sworn to secrecy. Nobody can reveal Bran's whereabouts in front of the Wall that the Others are using as a spyglass.

It's an interesting theory.  I don't credit the wights for having any kind of thought beyond following the scent of hot blood or the stink of life.  Although I have imagined that the wights act in the same capacity to the Others in the way that the crows and ravens scout for Coldhands.  Except in the case of the wights; the Others or something is able to see through their eyes, whether or not they have any eyes.

I'm not sure how Small Paul manages to track Sam and Gilly.   

18 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The CotF and BR don't need wights to keep Meera, Jojen and Bran inside the cave. Bran cannot walk by himself. He has to be carried, which takes energy from his companions, who are already near starvation and exhaustion. They journeyed from the Wall this far north through a landscape that is bereft of prey animals (those have become wights as well) on the back of an elk that died towards the end of its journey and a guy who's dead anyway, who managed to feed the starving children halfway with the meat of mutineers.

Yes,they are in dire straights alright.  They don't have the resources to leave the cave or the ability to survive if they do leave.  I'm not even sure how they are managing for food right now.  The wights may as well be a larder.  The cotf don't seem to providing anything but shelter and heat at this point. 

Edited by LynnS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It's an interesting theory.  I don't credit the wights for having any kind of thought beyond following the scent of hot blood or the stink of life.  Although I have imagined that the wights act in the same capacity to the Others in the way that the crows and ravens scout for Coldhands.  Except in the case of the wights; the Others or something is able to see through their eyes, whether or not they have any eyes.

I'm not sure how Small Paul manages to track Sam and Gilly.   

I'd say the Others control the wights in some manner and send them after those the Others target.

 

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Ok, I suppose he could have meant the cave entrance.  I took it to mean that he knew they were upon the cave entrance and could they see anything that presented a danger given that he is fearful of the one's who don't leave any tracks.

He means the cave. He knows they're close to the cave when the cold comes and he remarks on it. He wants to make sure they're close enough to get to safety.

 

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not even sure how they are managing for food right now.  The wights may as well be a larder.  The cotf don't seem to providing anything but shelter and heat at this point. 

The CoTF keep goats, which they put into a stew and share with Bran, Meera, Jojen and Hodor. But yeah, wights at least are larder for the wolves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The CoTF keep goats, which they put into a stew and share with Bran, Meera, Jojen and Hodor. But yeah, wights at least are larder for the wolves.

Oh! I missed that entirely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I should perhaps have said Man

The Oath is made up of three linked elements: Ice and Fire; Earth and Water; and Bronze and Iron, withe last pairing representing Man

OK,  Still, more specifically the Starks, since this is an oath of allegiance.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The CoTF keep goats, which they put into a stew and share with Bran, Meera, Jojen and Hodor. But yeah, wights at least are larder for the wolves.

Minor point, but they seem to just use the goats for cheese and milk.  The blood stew was either squirrel or rat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

Minor point, but they seem to just use the goats for cheese and milk.  The blood stew was either squirrel or rat.

Yeah, true.

Anyway, we can agree the CotF feed Bran, Meera, Jojen and Hodor stew - euhum Singer's stew ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yeah, true.

Anyway, we can agree the CotF feed Bran, Meera, Jojen and Hodor stew - euhum Singer's stew ;)

Maybe I should have said, squirrel or rat or Jojen?

ETA: Oh wait that was only the paste.  Perhaps squirrel or rat or deserter?

Edited by Frey family reunion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Maybe I should have said, squirrel or rat or Jojen?

ETA: Oh wait that was only the paste.  Perhaps squirrel or rat or deserter?

I don't think Jojen was the paste.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I should perhaps have said Man

The Oath is made up of three linked elements: Ice and Fire; Earth and Water; and Bronze and Iron, withe last pairing representing Man

The first instinct is to link these elements to magic.Doesn't work of course when it comes to iron and bronze.

The truly oddball couplet in there is the ice and fire one.How can that relate to the Reeds or the Neck?

A Hammer might work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It had never dawned on me until LynnS brought it up that Bran might be "He Who Shall Not Be Named" - he isn't named, because he made Sam promise not to tell anyone that he was still alive. He's Bloodraven's replacement and will become the next greenseer of the Children with god-like powers. If the Children of the Forest are responsible for the hammer of waters and other "natural" mother-nature related events carried out by their greenseer(s), then they are a godhead - a collective - and not a solitary omnipotent being, but are they solely on the side of "Ice"? Right now I lean towards "not exactly", because I think the Children have used all forms of magic: ice, fire, earth, and water - maybe even air, to work their spells. Is the collective godhead a god of darkness? I guess you could make that distinction since their greenseers typically sit underground in the dark and the Children currently live underground in caves.

This is my roundabout way of offering my opinion on the Reed's creed which had three parts:

Quote

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

Surely earth and water is nature and the natural world, bronze and iron are humans, and ice and fire is magic? Maybe earth and water - the natural world - is not "moved" by magic? It may seem like magic to move mountains and raise seas, but maybe its it's own thing and different than magic?

 

Edited by Melifeather

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...