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Black Crow

Heresy 229 and hitting the refresh button

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2 hours ago, alienarea said:

Let's not forget Ghost. Maybe Jon comes back mute.

Or, he's brought back in human form but can only bark.

I thought I had a healthy propensity for cynicism, but no, there's someone even worse..

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5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

the Jesus parallels continue

Oh, he is a messianic figure for sure. But if Martin subverts this trope...

also, if he wargs into Ghost, would that counteract the resurrection by Melisandre and it’s effects?

This is unrelated but I just had a thought. What happened at Hardhome 600 years ago? It’s mysterious, in the same realm of the Doom of Valyria or the Tragedy of Summerhall...refered to as something terrible happening there but otherwise quiet on details

Edited by Lady Rhodes

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9 hours ago, alienarea said:

Or, he's brought back in human form but can only bark.

I think that "human form"sums it up.

There's no such thing as a guilt-free resurrection. He may look like Jon, hold Jon's memories and perhaps to a lesser or greater extent his character, but ultimately he's going to be a cold dead thing.

This is one of my central arguments against R+L=J. While, as ever, I remain open to other possible equations I can be content with the possibility that its true. The problem for me is the supplementary assumptions that he is Azor Ahai, the rightful High King of Westeros etc etc. Rather I think that he is part of the bittersweet ending. He's going to be Coldhands, not Aragorn. 

 

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On 2/6/2020 at 4:54 PM, alienarea said:

Let's not forget Ghost. Maybe Jon comes back mute.

Or, he's brought back in human form but can only bark.

Could turn into a talking wolf too. Don’t forget about that one. :cool4:

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On 2/6/2020 at 8:38 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

This is unrelated but I just had a thought. What happened at Hardhome 600 years ago? It’s mysterious, in the same realm of the Doom of Valyria or the Tragedy of Summerhall...refered to as something terrible happening there but otherwise quiet on details

Because the maester’s mostly, and the Septons certainly, don’t want people to realize that magic exists. Personal favorite head cannon is that all of these sights are the equivalent of the magical variation of a nuke blast radius. A result with its overuse in unethical manners. ie the abominations. 

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20 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Could turn into a talking wolf too. Don’t forget about that one. :cool4:

That would be fun for a parody. Because of the bond with Ghost, after the resurrection Ghost talks with Jon's voice, and Jon can only bark.

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12 hours ago, alienarea said:

That would be fun for a parody. Because of the bond with Ghost, after the resurrection Ghost talks with Jon's voice, and Jon can only bark.

Do wolves bark?

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On 2/7/2020 at 2:31 AM, Black Crow said:

I think that "human form"sums it up.

There's no such thing as a guilt-free resurrection. He may look like Jon, hold Jon's memories and perhaps to a lesser or greater extent his character, but ultimately he's going to be a cold dead thing.

This is one of my central arguments against R+L=J. While, as ever, I remain open to other possible equations I can be content with the possibility that its true. The problem for me is the supplementary assumptions that he is Azor Ahai, the rightful High King of Westeros etc etc. Rather I think that he is part of the bittersweet ending. He's going to be Coldhands, not Aragorn. 

The Azor Ahai legend talks about a dead man coming back to life.  We assume this is someone who lived thousands of years ago - but what if it is not?  What if Jon is AA and has to be reborn as Jon among smoke and salt? 

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6 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The Azor Ahai legend talks about a dead man coming back to life.  We assume this is someone who lived thousands of years ago - but what if it is not?  What if Jon is AA and has to be reborn as Jon among smoke and salt? 

I disagree about Azor Ahai being a resurrection.

The term "come again" first appears right at the beginning, long before Azor Ahai is ever mentioned by the Red Witch, when Viserys is bigging up Khal Drogo, describing him as a great warrior like Aegon the Conqueror come again. Obviously he didn't mean that he was a reincarnation of Aegon [which he'd probably regard as blasphemy] but rather meant that he was another mighty conqueror.

Similarly I'd argue that when Our Mel talks about Azor Ahai come again she means another hero taking on his mantle, rather than an actual resurrection.

Moreover, at the end of the day this story is about the children of Winterfell and about Winterfell's mysteries not some mythical oriental hero

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We've been looking at the Reed oath on here recently.Came across a good write up on the subject on reddit .I'll have to come back to post the link (on phone)

The theory posits that the oath is essentially the Pact writ large.It makes sense, I think.

The oath is recited in a precise way.The first two lines are delivered in the singular-

I swear in by earth and water.

I swear it by bronze and iron.

So you can make rather obvious associations with the Cotf and the First Men in those two lines.Two separate speakers, two opposing sides.

The third line is delivered in unison, in itself suggestive of a pact or agreement.

We swear it by ice and fire.

Since Howland is the only known character to have visited the Isle of Faces, perhaps the Reeds are best placed to know the terms of the Pact?

Ice and fire.Perhaps that's what created the Neck.

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Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone

Well, this could go either way.  Resurrection could be "born again" but it could simply be someone taking up his mantle. 

I disagree with your assumption that Azor Ahai has nothing to do with the Starks.  If someone fought the Others with a sword, they likely did it in Westerous where the continent extends north and the Others are.  The Daynes may be better fits, but AA isn't an Oriental hero, rather an Oriental legend about a Westerosi hero. 

This fits J=R+L, if a Stark has to be Azor Ahai and the only relevant Targaryen power is prophecy - they know it will be one of their descendents, not because it has to be, but just because it happens to be. 

 

Edited by Brad Stark

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1 hour ago, redriver said:

We've been looking at the Reed oath on here recently.Came across a good write up on the subject on reddit .I'll have to come back to post the link (on phone)

The theory posits that the oath is essentially the Pact writ large.It makes sense, I think.

The oath is recited in a precise way.The first two lines are delivered in the singular-

I swear in by earth and water.

I swear it by bronze and iron.

So you can make rather obvious associations with the Cotf and the First Men in those two lines.Two separate speakers, two opposing sides.

The third line is delivered in unison, in itself suggestive of a pact or agreement.

We swear it by ice and fire.

Since Howland is the only known character to have visited the Isle of Faces, perhaps the Reeds are best placed to know the terms of the Pact?

Ice and fire.Perhaps that's what created the Neck.

This sounds right to me.

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6 hours ago, redriver said:

We've been looking at the Reed oath on here recently.Came across a good write up on the subject on reddit .I'll have to come back to post the link (on phone)

The theory posits that the oath is essentially the Pact writ large.It makes sense, I think.

The oath is recited in a precise way.The first two lines are delivered in the singular-

I swear in by earth and water.

I swear it by bronze and iron.

So you can make rather obvious associations with the Cotf and the First Men in those two lines.Two separate speakers, two opposing sides.

The third line is delivered in unison, in itself suggestive of a pact or agreement.

We swear it by ice and fire.

Since Howland is the only known character to have visited the Isle of Faces, perhaps the Reeds are best placed to know the terms of the Pact?

Ice and fire.Perhaps that's what created the Neck.

Swearing it by ice and fire sounds like the Pact was sealed with magic.

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20 hours ago, redriver said:

Do wolves bark?

I don't know, never had one. But the mummer's farce made me believe Jon would, while waving his tail.

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

Swearing it by ice and fire sounds like the Pact was sealed with magic.

I'd be astonished if magic wasn't involved. Moreover there's also that other rhyme the Reeds know that avers that the land is one. Clearly that's no longer the case, so is that a cause or a consequence of the magic oath being broken? 

And if the land is not one, then the warrior of fire desired by Our Mel is only going to make things worse

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2 hours ago, alienarea said:

Or at a Burger King.

You could be on to something here.The reason Howland stayed so long on the IOF was that he found a decent Burger King outlet and became addicted to their flame grilled Whopper with iced Coke to wash it down.

I like your thinking:lmao:.

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Everyone goes back to the Reeds' oath.  I know I've posted this before, but for me, it is more important, along the same lines and not discussed as much:

Quote

 "But here . . . this Storm's End is an old place. There are spells woven into the stones. Dark walls that no shadow can pass-ancient, forgotten, yet still in place."

"Shadow?" Davos felt his flesh prickling. "A shadow is a thing of darkness."

"You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows."

This gives us a lot of insight in the relationship between Light and Darkness, and by extension, Fire and Ice.  We have several possibilities:

1) The shadows are evil and dark and have nothing to do with R'hllor, Light or Fire - and Mel is only rationalizing.

2) The Lord of Light really has domain over shadows, which are distinctly different from the endless, shapeless darkness brought by the Others.

3) There is a Yin/Yang relationship.  Light cannot exist without Darkness, nor can Darkness exist without Light.  Magic, be it Fire, Ice, Light, Dark, etc - is just altering and manipulating the balance.

GRRM is not going to give us hard fast rules on magic.  But 3) would explain some of its inner workings, and the magic used by Mel, the Children of the Forest, the Rhoynar, the Shadowbinders, etc - is all essentially the same thing.

 

 

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On 2/9/2020 at 3:16 PM, redriver said:

Do wolves bark?

They most certainly do.  From the almighty google:

Wolves' vocalizations can be separated into four categories: barking, whimpering, growling, and howling. Sounds created by the wolf may actually be a combination of sounds such as a bark-howl or growl-bark. Barking is used as a warning. ... A wolf may growl at intruding wolves or predators, or to indicate dominance.

Google did not indicate what a wolf would say if stranded on the IOF and trying to order something through the drive through at Burger King.

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