Heresy 229 and hitting the refresh button

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I haven't read that book, so I can't add to that conversation. Sounds like something I would like though. 

You don't have to read the whole book.  Just a few pages of the introduction.  Martin has said that Tolkien was a huge influence on him and them remarks on the poor usage of trope he created by lesser writers.  LOL.  So I think Martin is fashioning a dark lord, only one that readers will not recognize as it's poor cousin aka Voldemort/Vader.  There is something that Bran sees North and North and North, beyond the dead lands, the spears of ice/bones of failed greenseers and the curtain of light.  This is not something that can be seen with the naked eye but only with the third eye.   He looks into the heart of winter, the soul of ice and sees into the mind of his opponent - the heart of darkness... again something that is not corporeal.  Something that is nailed to the ground and imprisoned with a curtain of light.  

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The torment that he devised for Hurin was 'to see with Morgoth's eyes'.  My father gave a definition of what this meant:  if one were forced to look into Morgoth's eye he would 'see' (or receive in his mind from Morgoth's mind) a compellingley credible picture of events, distorted by Morgoth's bottomless malice; and if indeed any could refuse Morgoth's command, Hurin did not. This was in part, my father said, because his love of his kin an his anguished anxiety for them made him desire to learn all that he could of them, no matter what the source; and in part from pride, believing that he had defeated Morgoth in debate, and that he could 'outstare' Morgoth, or at least retain his critical reason and distinguish between fact and malice.  

 This puts me directly in mind of Bran's coma dream when he looks into the heart of winter (and the soul of ice according to Melisandre).  The terrible knowledge received by way of his third eye.
 

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Because winter is coming.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

 

If we are trying to understand how Martin fashions his version of the dark lord, it seems to me that he is not only using Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness for a template; but also Tolkien's Morgoth.  I don't have any difficulty seeing Bran as GRRM's version of Hurin.  

If you read beyond the introduction; there are quite a few other things that parallel ASOIAF:  black swords made from iron fallen from the sky.  In the hands of Turn (Huron's son), the sword burns on the edges like fire when Turin is in beserker mode.  The notion that these swords have a will of their own and contain the soul and will of their maker.  The idea that the sword is cursed.  The character and temperament of Turin is very like Jon Snow.  He disavows his name and hides his identity taking on a series of other names not unlike Arya.

 

[Lady Rhodes]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I do believe Jon is older than readers believe and probably even older than he thinks, otherwise the text wouldn't seem to stress his graceful build to Robb's robust build. I think the comparison between Monster and Aemon Steelsong is meant to be a parallel to Jon and Robb.

If the baby swap that Jon arranged is a repeat of the past, then the fisherman was a maester just like Maester Aemon Targaryen. It may have been that Maester Walys was with Ned in the Vale and was traveling back to Winterfell when he died. Gilly is "Wylla", Sam is Ned, and Maester Aemon is Maester Walys. Aemon Steelsong is the babe brought back to Sam's home to be raised as his son, while Jon Snow is the babe brought back to Winterfell to be raised as Ned's son. Aemon is Mance's son and neither Gilly nor Sam are his true parents, but the parallel to the past is an inversion, because Jon's true parents were "Wylla" (Ashara) and Ned.

This is something to unpack then. We differ on some aspects but what if when Lyanna was taken/fled (I know you believe it was someone other than Rhaegar so you can put whomever in here) she was taken to the Vale? It would be more logical than Dornish south. 
 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I haven't read that book, so I can't add to that conversation. Sounds like something I would like though. 

 

21 hours ago, LynnS said:

https://archive.org/stream/J.R.R.TolkienTheChildrenOfHurin/J.R.R.Tolkien - The Children of Hurin_djvu.txt

 

[Melifeather]

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

You don't have to read the whole book.  Just a few pages of the introduction.  Martin has said that Tolkien was a huge influence on him and them remarks on the poor usage of trope he created by lesser writers.  LOL.  So I think Martin is fashioning a dark lord, only one that readers will not recognize as it's poor cousin aka Voldemort/Vader.  There is something that Bran sees North and North and North, beyond the dead lands, the spears of ice/bones of failed greenseers and the curtain of light.  This is not something that can be seen with the naked eye but only with the third eye.   He looks into the heart of winter, the soul of ice and sees into the mind of his opponent - the heart of darkness... again something that is not corporeal.  Something that is nailed to the ground and imprisoned with a curtain of light.      

I can see how GRRM's words could be construed in such a way as to suggest that he planned to "do it right" in an effort to improve upon the reputation of the fantasy genre and indeed he has. I think he has borrowed a number of subjects from various stories and rewrote them to demonstrate how he thinks they could have been improved. I agree that Tolkien looms large in ASOIAF as well as Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time among many others.

I also agree with you that the heart of darkness isn't a physical place, but rather one within the human heart. Where I differ with you is that the darkness discovered will be the forgotten evils of the Starks.

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I also agree with you that the heart of darkness isn't a physical place, but rather one within the human heart. Where I differ with you is that the darkness discovered will be the forgotten evils of the Starks.

I don't disagree.  I think the dark lord will be someone intimately connected with the Kings of Winter, The Last Hero, the original sword Ice and what lies beneath the crypts of Winterfell.  In other words, the curse of the Starks handed down generation to generation.  The answer to the reason why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell (because winter is coming).

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

This is something to unpack then. We differ on some aspects but what if when Lyanna was taken/fled (I know you believe it was someone other than Rhaegar so you can put whomever in here) she was taken to the Vale? It would be more logical than Dornish south. 
 

I theorize that Sansa and Arya have retraced the steps of Ashara and Lyanna, who while unrelated, appear to be presented as "sisters" in the story. I firmly believe that the current characters are repeating the past, except the events are a bit jumbled. All the elements are there, but many are inverted or different people are playing the parts.

We are reminded all the time that Arya is like her aunt Lyanna. Arya spent a great deal of time in the Riverlands prior to sailing to Braavos. Arya was never raped, but she did kill a lot of people with Needle before becoming "no one", and she pretended to be a character named Mercy who gets raped in a play. To me, becoming "no one" was a symbolic death, and in the Winds released chapter Mercy, it seems to hint that Lyanna was raped, gored, and then begged for mercy. I suspect that by the time Ned found her she was begging to die. I think one of the promises she extracted was for Ned to give her the gift of mercy and put an end to her suffering. Furthermore, I think Ned's taking of Lady's life was an echo. I think Saltpans or an area near Saltpans is our clue as to where Lyanna was found. Ned's fever dream and his waking thoughts recall a "tower long fallen", which is why I suspect Whitewalls. Whitewalls was located somewhere south of Harrenhal on the shore of the Gods Eye, and it's said to be closer to Saltpans than to Kings Landing. Bloodraven had the place destroyed after finding that Lord Butterwell had plotted a coup and was keeping Egg prisoner in his sept. Arya left Sandor somewhere west of Saltpans, and Elder Brother told Brienne that when he came upon Sandor he was begging for mercy.

Sansa escaped Kings Landing with help from a knight - Ser Dontos - and her "father" Petyr Baelish. She took a ship to the Fingers which is very close to the Vale, and became "Alayne". I propose Ashara's escape was a close parallel. Sansa made her escape while Joffrey choked to death at his wedding feast. I suspect Ashara escaped while Brandon choked trying to save his father Rickard from burning. Ashara's brother Arthur was a knight, so he may have been the parallel to Ser Dontos, while the parallel to Petyr may have simply been a fisherman and his boat. Ashara disguised herself as the fisherman's daughter, "Wylla". Ned must have encountered Ashara in the Fingers or somewhere along the shore of the Bite. The ship could have stopped for provisions or delivered cargo before sailing across the Bite to White Harbor.

[Melifeather]

21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't disagree.  I think the dark lord will be someone intimately connected with the Kings of Winter, The Last Hero, the original sword Ice and what lies beneath the crypts of Winterfell.  In other words, the curse of the Starks handed down generation to generation.  The answer to the reason why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell (because winter is coming).

I agree that these things are most definitely connected.

[LynnS]

The first few lines of C. Tolkien's introduction:

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The character of Turin was of deep significance to my father, and in dialogue of directness and immediacy he achieved a poignant portrait of his boyhood, essential to the whole:  his severity and lack of gaiety, his sense of justice and his compassion; of Hurin also, quick, gay, and sanguine, and of Morwen his mother, reserved, courageous and proud; and of a life of the household in the cold country of Dor-lomin...   

Does this not sound much like Jon, Bran and Lyanna? 

[Lady Rhodes]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I theorize that Sansa and Arya have retraced the steps of Ashara and Lyanna, who while unrelated, appear to be presented as "sisters" in the story. I firmly believe that the current characters are repeating the past, except the events are a bit jumbled. All the elements are there, but many are inverted or different people are playing the parts.

We are reminded all the time that Arya is like her aunt Lyanna. Arya spent a great deal of time in the Riverlands prior to sailing to Braavos. Arya was never raped, but she did kill a lot of people with Needle before becoming "no one", and she pretended to be a character named Mercy who gets raped in a play. To me, becoming "no one" was a symbolic death, and in the Winds released chapter Mercy, it seems to hint that Lyanna was raped, gored, and then begged for mercy. I suspect that by the time Ned found her she was begging to die. I think one of the promises she extracted was for Ned to give her the gift of mercy and put an end to her suffering. Furthermore, I think Ned's taking of Lady's life was an echo. I think Saltpans or an area near Saltpans is our clue as to where Lyanna was found. Ned's fever dream and his waking thoughts recall a "tower long fallen", which is why I suspect Whitewalls. Whitewalls was located somewhere south of Harrenhal on the shore of the Gods Eye, and it's said to be closer to Saltpans than to Kings Landing. Bloodraven had the place destroyed after finding that Lord Butterwell had plotted a coup and was keeping Egg prisoner in his sept. Arya left Sandor somewhere west of Saltpans, and Elder Brother told Brienne that when he came upon Sandor he was begging for mercy.

Sansa escaped Kings Landing with help from a knight - Ser Dontos - and her "father" Petyr Baelish. She took a ship to the Fingers which is very close to the Vale, and became "Alayne". I propose Ashara's escape was a close parallel. Sansa made her escape while Joffrey choked to death at his wedding feast. I suspect Ashara escaped while Brandon choked trying to save his father Rickard from burning. Ashara's brother Arthur was a knight, so he may have been the parallel to Ser Dontos, while the parallel to Petyr may have simply been a fisherman and his boat. Ashara disguised herself as the fisherman's daughter, "Wylla". Ned must have encountered Ashara in the Fingers or somewhere along the shore of the Bite. The ship could have stopped for provisions or delivered cargo before sailing across the Bite to White Harbor.

Interesting thought re: Arya and the saltpans. I think there are a lot of things that aren’t as they appear even though I don’t necessarily agree with all of your points. I am willing to go, though, that Lyanna may not have been in Dorne.

lately, I have been thinking that when Rhaella fled King’s landing, they did not go to Dragonstone. I think it was a feint. I think they ended up in Dorne (queue Lemongate) and that the Tower of Joy (where I am still willing to bet Lyanna was at but willing to explore other options) was where Rhaella died and Daenerys was born. She is referred to as Stormborn and the Storm was breaking apart Dragonstone. Interestingly enough, the third book refers to fighting as a Storm of swords and Ned recalls pulling the tower down stone by stone.

now I have been thinking Lyanna was there with Rhaella but I am willing to consider she was elsewhere. Ashara may have been at ToJ though. I think Daenerys must be a Targaryen due to the dragons but based on the text in Barristan’s chapters, I am wondering if Rhaella gave birth to another stillborn child and Dany is the child of Aerys and Ashara. Ashara being a lady in waiting would have been accessible to Aerys and may have contributed to Arthur Dayne leaving the capital (and the king). 
 

just a few thoughts 

[Melifeather]

41 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Interesting thought re: Arya and the saltpans. I think there are a lot of things that aren’t as they appear even though I don’t necessarily agree with all of your points. I am willing to go, though, that Lyanna may not have been in Dorne.

lately, I have been thinking that when Rhaella fled King’s landing, they did not go to Dragonstone. I think it was a feint. I think they ended up in Dorne (queue Lemongate) and that the Tower of Joy (where I am still willing to bet Lyanna was at but willing to explore other options) was where Rhaella died and Daenerys was born. She is referred to as Stormborn and the Storm was breaking apart Dragonstone. Interestingly enough, the third book refers to fighting as a Storm of swords and Ned recalls pulling the tower down stone by stone.

now I have been thinking Lyanna was there with Rhaella but I am willing to consider she was elsewhere. Ashara may have been at ToJ though. I think Daenerys must be a Targaryen due to the dragons but based on the text in Barristan’s chapters, I am wondering if Rhaella gave birth to another stillborn child and Dany is the child of Aerys and Ashara. Ashara being a lady in waiting would have been accessible to Aerys and may have contributed to Arthur Dayne leaving the capital (and the king). 
 

just a few thoughts 

I have read similar theories from others.

Don't forget there was a storm during the Rebellion that destroyed much of the Targaryen fleet at Dragonstone, so it seems reasonable that Daenerys was born during this storm. We also can connect Daenerys and Viserys as being on Dragonstone, because of the castellan and guards plot to sell them to King Robert, thus the attack on Dragonstone and Ser Willem's break-in to the nursery to escape. He had to break-in, because there were enough men on Dragonstone that were in on the plan that could have prevented him from getting away easily. Then we know Ser Willem brought the children to Braavos where he negotiated a marriage alliance with Oberyn Martell, although both Willem and Oberyn are dead, so we cannot know for sure they were in Braavos. They could have been in Lys or Pentos for instance, which would explain the lemon tree memory as well as the "red" door, although I think "red" is simply symbolic of the sale of Daenerys maidenhead.

I also tend to not read Ned's memory of tearing down the tower so literally. When Jaime searched the Hand's Tower for Tyrion, he searched so thoroughly that you could say he "tore it down".

 

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A Feast for Crows - Cersei III

"If any of them were hiding in the tower, we would have found them. I've had a small army going at it with picks and hammers. We've knocked through walls and ripped up floors and uncovered half a hundred secret passages."

 

"And for all you know there may be half a hundred more." Some of the secret crawlways had turned out to be so small that Jaime had needed pages and stableboys to explore them. A passage to the black cells had been found, and a stone well that seemed to have no bottom. They had found a chamber full of skulls and yellowed bones, and four sacks of tarnished silver coins from the reign of the first King Viserys. They had found a thousand rats as well . . . but neither Tyrion nor Varys had been amongst them, and Jaime had finally insisted on putting an end to the search. One boy had gotten stuck in a narrow passage and had to be pulled out by his feet, shrieking. Another fell down a shaft and broke his legs. And two guardsmen vanished exploring a side tunnel. Some of the other guards swore they could hear them calling faintly through the stone, but when Jaime's men tore down the wall they found only earth and rubble on the far side. "The Imp is small and cunning. He may still be in the walls. If he is, the fire will smoke him out."

 

"Even if Tyrion were still hiding in the castle, he won't be in the Tower of the Hand. We've reduced it to a shell."

 

 

If Ned's men died while fighting the three Kingsguard at Maegor's Holdfast, you could say he "built" eight cairns, meaning the fight cost him eight lives. Later on when Kings Landing was sacked, the description used was that the city "fell".

[Lady Rhodes]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I have read similar theories from others.

Don't forget there was a storm during the Rebellion that destroyed much of the Targaryen fleet at Dragonstone, so it seems reasonable that Daenerys was born during this storm. We also can connect Daenerys and Viserys as being on Dragonstone, because of the castellan and guards plot to sell them to King Robert, thus the attack on Dragonstone and Ser Willem's break-in to the nursery to escape. He had to break-in, because there were enough men on Dragonstone that were in on the plan that could have prevented him from getting away easily. Then we know Ser Willem brought the children to Braavos where he negotiated a marriage alliance with Oberyn Martell, although both Willem and Oberyn are dead, so we cannot know for sure they were in Braavos. They could have been in Lys or Pentos for instance, which would explain the lemon tree memory as well as the "red" door, although I think "red" is simply symbolic of the sale of Daenerys maidenhead.

I also tend to not read Ned's memory of tearing down the tower so literally. When Jaime searched the Hand's Tower for Tyrion, he searched so thoroughly that you could say he "tore it down".

 

 

If Ned's men died while fighting the three Kingsguard at Maegor's Holdfast, you could say he "built" eight cairns, meaning the fight cost him eight lives. Later on when Kings Landing was sacked, the description used was that the city "fell".

Oh I am not disputing that there was a storm and that the Targaryen fleet was destroyed and there was a plot to sell the children. I think a similar fient was done like ariannes in Dorne. I think a ship with someone playing the roles of Rhaella and Viserys occurrd

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Oh I am not disputing that there was a storm and that the Targaryen fleet was destroyed and there was a plot to sell the children. I think a similar fient was done like ariannes in Dorne. I think a ship with someone playing the roles of Rhaella and Viserys occurrd

I was just trying to make sense of the logistics you were proposing.

[Lady Rhodes]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I was just trying to make sense of the logistics you were proposing.

Oh ok! I am sorry I misunderstood!

[Lady Rhodes]

Does anyone else have any theories or proposed thoughts that they want to explore? A year ago I started (but unfortunately did not finish) my interesting tidbit project for Feast. In short, it was my theory that there is at least one interesting tidbit on each page of the text and by searching for th em, we are forced to read more closely and find things we may have overlooked. Pate’s prologue in Feast is a treasure trove! The dementia ridden archmaester that he has been tasked of stealing a key from has some very interesting things kept hidden with said key, Hightower hasn’t left the Hightower in ten years, you can supposedly see the wall from the top of the Hightower...and that is jusst off The too of my head

[LynnS]

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Some six and a half thousand years before the Council of Elrond was held in Rivendell, Turin was born in Dor-lomin, 'in the winter of the yea', as is recorded in the Annals of Beleriand, 'with omens of sorrow'.

But the tragedy of his life is by no means comprehended solely in the portrayal of character, for he was condemned to live trapped in a malediction of huge and mysterious power, the curse of hatred set by Morgoth upon Hurin and Morwen and their children, because Hurin defied him, and refused his will.  And Morgoth, the Black Enemy, as he came to be called, was in his origin, as he declared to Hurin brought captive before him, "Melkor, first and mightiest of the Valar, who was before the ' world."  Now become permanently incarnate, in form a gigantic and majestic, but terrible, King in the north-west of Middle-earth, he was physically present in his huge fortress of Angband, the Hells of Iron: the black reek that issued from Thangorodrim the mountains that he piled above Angband, could be seen far off staining the northern sky.  It is said in the Annals of Beleraind that 'the gates of Morgoth were but one hundred nd fifty leagues distant from the bridge of Menegroth; far and yet all too near. ' These words refer to the bridge leading to the dwellings of the Elvish king Thingol, who took Turin to be is fosterson: they were called Menegoth, the Thousand Caves, far south and east of Dor-lomin.

But being incarnate Morgoth was afraid.  My father wrote of him: 'As he grew in malice, and sent forth from himself the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness, his power passed into them and was dispersed, and he himself became ever more earth-bound unwilling to issue from his dark strongholds.'  Thus when Fingolfin, High King of the Noldorin Elves, rode alone to Angband to challenge Morgoth to combat, he cried at the gate: 'Come forth, thou coward king, to fight with thine own hand!  Den-dweller, wielder of thralls, liar and lurker, foe of Gods and Elves, come! For I would see they craven face.' Then (it is told) 'Morgoth came. For he could not refuse such a challenge before the face of his captains.' He fought with the great hammer Grond, which at each blow made a great it, and he beat Fingolfin to the ground; but as he died he pinned the great foot of Morgoth to the earth, 'and the black blood gushed forth and filled the pits of Grond.  Morgoth went ever halt thereafter.' So also, when Beren and Luthien, in the shapes of a wolf and a bat, made their way into the deepest hall in Angband, where Morgoth sat, Luthien cast a spell on him: and 'suddenly he fell, as a hill sliding in avalanche, and hurled like thunder from his throne lay prone upon the floors of hell.  The iron crown rolled echoing from his head.'

The curse of such a being, who can claim that 'the shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda (the Earth), and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will', is unlike the curses or imprecations of beings of far less power.  Morgoth is not 'invoking' evil or calamity on Hurin and his children, he is not 'calling on' a higher power to be the agent: for he, 'Master of the fates of Arda' as he named himself to Hurin, intends to bring about the ruin of his enemy by the force of his own gigantic will.  Thus he 'designs' the future of those whom he hates, and so he says to Hurin:  'Upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair.'  

The torment that he devised for Huin was 'to see with Morgoth's eyes'.  My father gave a definition of what his meant:  If one 'were forced to look into Morgoth's eye he would 'see' (or receive in his mind from Morgoth's mind) a compellingly credible picture of events, distorted by Morgoth's bottomless malice; and if indeed an could refuse Morgoth's command, Hurin did not.  This is part, my father said, because his love of his kin and his anguished anxiety for them made him desire to learn all that he could of them, no matter what the source; and in part from pride, believing that he had defeated Morgoth in debate, and that he could 'outstare' Morgoth, or at least retain his critical reason and distinguish between fact and malice.

In the tale of Turin, who named himself Turambar 'Master of Fate', the curse of Morgoth seems to be seen as power unleashed to work evil, seeking out its victims; so that the fallen Vala himself is said to fear that Turn 'would grow to such a power that the curse that he had laid upon him would become void, and he would escape the doom that had been designed for him'.  And afterwards in Nargothrond Turin concealed his true name, so that when Gwindor revealed it he was angered: 'You have done ill to me, friend, to betray my right name, and call down my doom upon me, from which I would lie hid." It was Gwindor who had told Turin of the rumour that ran through Angband, where Gwindor had been held prisoner, that Morgoth had laid a curse on Hurin and all his kin.  But no he replied to Turin's wrath: 'the doom lies in yourself not in your name.'

So essential is this complex conception in the story that my father even proposed an alternative title to it :  The Tale of the Curse of Morgoth. And his view of it is seen in these words: 'So ended the tale of Turin the hapless; the worst of the works of Morgoth among Men in the ancient world.' 

This is an excerpt from the Introduction by C. Tolkein of The Children of Hurin concerning his father's (J.R.R. Tolkein) thoughts.

I have a strong feeling that Martin is employing his own version of Tolkein's trope of the ancient enemy.  The notion that Morgoth has cursed all the descendents of Hurin and designs their doom resonates with Martin's original synopsis about the Stark children.  It seems their fates are also designed beginning with the arrival of the direwolf pups.

Nymeria nipped eagerly at her hand as Arya untied her. She had yellow eyes. When they caught the sunlight, they gleamed like two golden coins. - GoT  Arya I  Foreshadowing Arya's path to the House of Black and White and her apprenticeship with the Faceless Men.  

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A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. "Ghost?" He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. "Ghost!" he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. "Gods, wolf, where have you been?" Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. "I thought you'd died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I've had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams." The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon's face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns.

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.

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A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

His friends were still out in the practice yard, but Jon was in no fit state to face them. He left the armory by the back, descending a steep flight of stone steps to the wormways, the tunnels that linked the castle's keeps and towers below the earth. It was short walk to the bathhouse, where he took a cold plunge to wash the sweat off and soaked in a hot stone tub. The warmth took some of the ache from his muscles and made him think of Winterfell's muddy pools, steaming and bubbling in the godswood. Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins.

You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.

The things that are connected to the old gods are intimately connected to Jon.  He also belongs to the old gods. 

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A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

In the yard below, Rickon ran with the wolves.

Bran watched from his window seat. Wherever the boy went, Grey Wind was there first, loping ahead to cut him off, until Rickon saw him, screamed in delight, and went pelting off in another direction. Shaggydog ran at his heels, spinning and snapping if the other wolves came too close. His fur had darkened until he was all black, and his eyes were green fire. Bran's Summer came last. He was silver and smoke, with eyes of yellow gold that saw all there was to see. Smaller than Grey Wind, and more wary. Bran thought he was the smartest of the litter. He could hear his brother's breathless laughter as Rickon dashed across the hard-packed earth on little baby legs.

Rickon it seems will run wild with the wolves and Bran will see all there is to see.

These fates seem designed for each of the Stark kids.  Sansa has lost her wolf and her future seems as much in peril as her siblings.  I'm not certain that the ancient enemy has designed these fates, but certainly the old gods have their hands in the pie.  All of the Stark kids will journey into the heart of darkness; their own hearts.   As Gwindor tells Turin, the doom lies within himself, not in his name.  

I expect that Bran will contend with the ancient enemy.  He has already been shown the mind of the enemy in his coma dream.  The terrible knowledge contained in the third eye, filled with hatred and malice, the gigantic will of the enemy as described by Tolkein:

Now become permanently incarnate, in form a gigantic and majestic, but terrible, King in the north-west of Middle-earth, 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

 

Does any of this make sense to anyone?

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is an excerpt from the Introduction by C. Tolkein of The Children of Hurin concerning his father's (J.R.R. Tolkein) thoughts.

I have a strong feeling that Martin is employing his own version of Tolkein's trope of the ancient enemy.  The notion that Morgoth has cursed all the descendents of Hurin and designs their doom resonates with Martin's original synopsis about the Stark children.  It seems their fates are also designed beginning with the arrival of the direwolf pups.

Nymeria nipped eagerly at her hand as Arya untied her. She had yellow eyes. When they caught the sunlight, they gleamed like two golden coins. - GoT  Arya I  Foreshadowing Arya's path to the House of Black and White and her apprenticeship with the Faceless Men.  

The things that are connected to the old gods are intimately connected to Jon.  He also belongs to the old gods. 

Rickon it seems will run wild with the wolves and Bran will see all there is to see.

These fates seem designed for each of the Stark kids.  Sansa has lost her wolf and her future seems as much in peril as her siblings.  I'm not certain that the ancient enemy has designed these fates, but certainly the old gods have their hands in the pie.  All of the Stark kids will journey into the heart of darkness; their own hearts.   As Gwindor tells Turin, the doom lies within himself, not in his name.  

I expect that Bran will contend with the ancient enemy.  He has already been shown the mind of the enemy in his coma dream.  The terrible knowledge contained in the third eye, filled with hatred and malice, the gigantic will of the enemy as described by Tolkein:

Now become permanently incarnate, in form a gigantic and majestic, but terrible, King in the north-west of Middle-earth, 

Does any of this make sense to anyone?

Bran is evil.

[LynnS]

43 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Bran is evil.

How so?

[Black Crow]

15 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is an excerpt from the Introduction by C. Tolkein of The Children of Hurin concerning his father's (J.R.R. Tolkein) thoughts.

I have a strong feeling that Martin is employing his own version of Tolkein's trope of the ancient enemy.  The notion that Morgoth has cursed all the descendents of Hurin and designs their doom resonates with Martin's original synopsis about the Stark children.  It seems their fates are also designed beginning with the arrival of the direwolf pups.

Nymeria nipped eagerly at her hand as Arya untied her. She had yellow eyes. When they caught the sunlight, they gleamed like two golden coins. - GoT  Arya I  Foreshadowing Arya's path to the House of Black and White and her apprenticeship with the Faceless Men.  

The things that are connected to the old gods are intimately connected to Jon.  He also belongs to the old gods. 

Rickon it seems will run wild with the wolves and Bran will see all there is to see.

These fates seem designed for each of the Stark kids.  Sansa has lost her wolf and her future seems as much in peril as her siblings.  I'm not certain that the ancient enemy has designed these fates, but certainly the old gods have their hands in the pie.  All of the Stark kids will journey into the heart of darkness; their own hearts.   As Gwindor tells Turin, the doom lies within himself, not in his name.  

I expect that Bran will contend with the ancient enemy.  He has already been shown the mind of the enemy in his coma dream.  The terrible knowledge contained in the third eye, filled with hatred and malice, the gigantic will of the enemy as described by Tolkein:

Now become permanently incarnate, in form a gigantic and majestic, but terrible, King in the north-west of Middle-earth, 

Does any of this make sense to anyone?

Yes indeed. There's the usual caveat here that what we're reading now is GRRM's story not Tolkein's and that no matter how closely they are aligned, in the end its his take on it all.

At the same time I think its where GRRM may have gone wrong. The synopsis makes it very clear that his story is about the Starks and the Children of Winterfell and within that context your theory makes perfect sense. The trouble is that in also weaving in the War of the Targaryen Succession, possibly as an elaborate mask to hide the core Stark/Hurin story he has allowed it to drift into a bit of a swamp.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Yes indeed. There's the usual caveat here that what we're reading now is GRRM's story not Tolkein's and that no matter how closely they are aligned, in the end its his take on it all.

At the same time I think its where GRRM may have gone wrong. The synopsis makes it very clear that his story is about the Starks and the Children of Winterfell and within that context your theory makes perfect sense. The trouble is that in also weaving in the War of the Targaryen Succession, possibly as an elaborate mask to hide the core Stark/Hurin story he has allowed it to drift into a bit of a swamp.

Yes, exactly.  GRRM will employ this trope in his own fashion but intends that it will not be a lesser version but something akin to Tolkein's intentions.

17 hours ago, LynnS said:

'As he grew in malice, and sent forth from himself the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness, his power passed into them and was dispersed, and he himself became ever more earth-bound unwilling to issue from his dark strongholds.' 

 

17 hours ago, LynnS said:

The curse of such a being, who can claim that 'the shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda (the Earth), and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will'

The notion that the ancient enemy lies like a shadow on the land;  the black reek like a miasma; his bottomless malice affecting his creatures turning them into thralls; compares to the killing cold, turning the dead into thralls, using their eyes to see; infecting the wights with hatred of all living things.  That influence may extend to characters like Euron.  His personal sigil of the red eye and the iron crown that he covets.  

I've come to think of the White Walkers as the 'captains', the souls pierced with spears of ice that Bran sees in his dream.  

I think what Bran has seen in the heart of winter is total devastation; but one possible outcome and the reason that he must live to change that future.

I've discovered another trope that GRRM employs while watching Star Trek Discovery Season 2.  LOL!

Spock asks how it is possible for him to have memories of the future.  This brings to mind the Tree-Bran/Ghost-Jon encounter at the Skirling Pass.  Bran has a memory of that future event while still hiding in the crypts of Winterfell.

The Talosians tell Spock that he is experiencing time as a fluid rather than a linear construct.  Michael Burnham even refers to time as a river.  Where have we heard that before?  When Bran weds the weirwood, he is essentially inserted into the river of time.   Something that the Klingons who guard the time crystals describe as the past, present and future being equal.  They even show a tree growing from a seed before Captain Pike's eyes.

In this trope, the past can't be changed, only the course of the future.

One other curious thing:  Michael Burnham says the greatest mysteries come in threes:  the past, the present, the future.  

[LynnS]

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

rSome six and a half thousand years before the Council of Elrond was held in Rivendell, Turin was born in Dor-lomin, 'in the winter of the yea', as is recorded in the Annals of Beleriand, 'with omens of sorrow'.

This should appeal to our friend Brad Stark.  If Jon is based on the character of Turin; is it possible that Jon was born "with omens of sorrow"?  Something about a blood red sky and a storm of petals....  LOL