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Black Crow

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21 hours ago, corbon said:

Wardens appear to be specific military titles, independent of any lands (though it has become customary for certain landholders to also be named wardens).

In addition the the Wardens of North, South, East and West (all customarily the highest nobles in that region - Stark, Tyrell, Lannister and Arryn) we also have Robb creating a Warden of the Southern Marches (ie the southern borderlands of the new Northern Kingdom) and granting that title to the Blackfish, Anders Yronwood as Warden of the Stone way, Franklyn Fowler Warden of the Princes Pass, Wyman Manderly Warden of the White Knife, Skahaz Warden of the River, and Rosby Warden of the Sands.

Since there are no lands involved and the titles are not strictly hereditary (though customarily they have become so, mostly), there is no restriction on the Kingsguard holding such a post.

I suspect Wardens hold senior military command within their warden-ship areas over all other lords. As such, these positions are customarily given to the most militarily powerful lord and/or highest ranking lord (usually one and the same) within that area  - its kinda awkward if one lord brings 1000 men to fight and another lord with only 200 men automatically has command over him - and as relative local military strength rarely changes significantly, such posts tend to be more or less hereditary even though they technically are not.

I'd suspect that GRRM is basing these offices on the Wardens of the Anglo-Scottish border. These were charged with keeping the peace in their respective Marches [East March, Middle March and West March] which could mean anything from holding assizes, and policing all the way up to summoning an army to defend his march. He wouldn't normally exercise his authority outside his march other than carrying out a short-term incursion for a particular purpose, and he was of course encouraged to co-operate with his fellow wardens.

As to the specific case, you're quite right. It is an office under the Crown and as such there's no reason why the King could not appoint a member of the Kingsguard to hold it.

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On 1/7/2020 at 6:18 PM, Lady Rhodes said:

I am retreading Game currently and have found something puzzling. There appears to be a continuity issue. In the second Ned chapter, he is irritated that Robert named Jaime as Warden of the East and, in an attempt to persuade him out of it, says Jaime will be the successor to Tywin as Warden if the West. but Jaime is in the Kingsguard; why is he even an option for either post? 

The duty of the Warden is to basically be the war general from each area, basically rallying the troops, so to speak. I was under the impression that anyone could fill that role, land owner or not. (Though that could be wrong) In that respect, I think that being a kingsguard would actually uniquely qualify him for the role as his only loyalty should theoretically be to his king.

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On 1/7/2020 at 5:45 PM, Melifeather said:

There's an unknown reason for why Howland sent his children to bring Bran to Bloodraven and the Children instead of himself, and I'm thinking it's because he's a cripple too. I suspect he's a cripple - injured somehow - because of other characters that are friends of Arya. Arya is retracing Lyanna's steps, and I suspect Arya's companions are repeating events that Lyanna's companions did in the past.

Mycah the redheaded and freckled butcher's boy - cut down by Sandor Clegane

Lommy Greenhands, whose arms are mottled green up to the elbows - wounded by a spear thrust into his calf and then finished off by a spear to the throat by Raff the Sweetling

It's not so much Mycah's hair coloring, but his freckles that connect him to Lommy who has mottled green skin. Both companions died while Arya only pretended to die. In the past Lyanna died, but I think one or two companions were injured or are pretending to be dead. When Ned took a spear to his calf it seemed like a pretty severe injury, and without treatment the fever could have killed him. It also may have left him with a permanent limp had they not taken his life by beheading him, so I suspect Howland was injured during the war and it left him a 

That's not making a whole pile of sense.

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On 1/4/2020 at 7:18 PM, alienarea said:

Bran is evil.

I said that three years ago. Well, basically. His coma dream is basically a second version of the tale of the Night’s King if you compare the two. 

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On 1/5/2020 at 9:38 AM, LynnS said:

The notion that the ancient enemy lies like a shadow on the land;  the black reek like a miasma; his bottomless malice affecting his creatures turning them into thralls; compares to the killing cold, turning the dead into thralls, using their eyes to see; infecting the wights with hatred of all living things.  That influence may extend to characters like Euron.  His personal sigil of the red eye and the iron crown that he covets.  

This is basically the start of the theory that @Voice of the First Men wrote several years ago. He is the one that first coined the term “miasma” as far as the North was concerned. I have no idea why nobody remembers this. It was an extremely well done and thought out theory. I’m just not sure that I completely agreed with the idea that the only thing that would fix the problem would be the sacrifice of Jon. 

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On 1/7/2020 at 7:41 AM, redriver said:

He is short and wiry with a shock of red hair. He says he is no tourney knight but has the sort of casual arrogance that shows he has skill at arms.

He claims to have been financially ruined at the Blackwater by ransom, yet he rides a chestnut courser, an expensive war horse. The same kind of horse ridden by Sansa at times.

His sigil bears similarities to the knight of the laughing tree, but here the white tree with the red eyes is replaced by a large white mouse with red eyes. One is laughing, one is "mad". Both suggestive of mockery/deceit. Both suggestive of old gods.

"We swear it by ice and fire."

The background is bendy brown and blue for the lands and rivers he's crossed. Meera describes her father as able to breathe mud. He could change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word.

"We swear it by earth and water."

This is a live candidate for Howland Reed. I hope it is. Rather than a grand entrance stage left waving an affey davey, I'd prefer he snuck in under the radar without most noticing.

Howland Reed is an intriguing idea, but the red hair brings to mind Marc Piper to me. Other than the Tully siblings and the “Butcher’s Boy” he’s the only character I remember hearing mentioned as having red hair. In conjunction to all of the significance we see on red/chestnut horses it may well deserve a closer look. 

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On 1/7/2020 at 12:45 PM, Melifeather said:

There's an unknown reason for why Howland sent his children to bring Bran to Bloodraven and the Children instead of himself, and I'm thinking it's because he's a cripple too. I suspect he's a cripple - injured somehow - because of other characters that are friends of Arya. Arya is retracing Lyanna's steps, and I suspect Arya's companions are repeating events that Lyanna's companions did in the past.

Mycah the redheaded and freckled butcher's boy - cut down by Sandor Clegane

Lommy Greenhands, whose arms are mottled green up to the elbows - wounded by a spear thrust into his calf and then finished off by a spear to the throat by Raff the Sweetling

It's not so much Mycah's hair coloring, but his freckles that connect him to Lommy who has mottled green skin. Both companions died while Arya only pretended to die. In the past Lyanna died, but I think one or two companions were injured or are pretending to be dead. When Ned took a spear to his calf it seemed like a pretty severe injury, and without treatment the fever could have killed him. It also may have left him with a permanent limp had they not taken his life by beheading him, so I suspect Howland was injured during the war and it left him a cripple.

Instead of going through all of these mental gymnastics in trying to connect the two boys, wouldn’t it be easier to try to connect more obvious things first. When I hear green hands I tend to connect that to the Order of The Green Hand. When I see mottling, as a nurse I think of death, as it is in general a sign of a fairly imminent death.

I do not see how green hands and freckles are remotely related other than the fact that they both appear on the skin. If anything, I see freckles more as a sign of life. Just like a plant grows in sunlight, so do freckles. 

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13 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

This is basically the start of the theory that @Voice of the First Men wrote several years ago. He is the one that first coined the term “miasma” as far as the North was concerned. I have no idea why nobody remembers this. It was an extremely well done and thought out theory. I’m just not sure that I completely agreed with the idea that the only thing that would fix the problem would be the sacrifice of Jon. 

I remember he said something about miasma but I don't remember what he actually said about it.  I remember looking up the term. 

- an oppressive or unpleasant atmosphere which surrounds or emanates from something. 

I think this also had something to do with what Bran saw in the heart of winter.  I think Voice suggested that it was an undead Dothraki hoard.  Also that Bran's coma dream took place completely in the here and now.  I might be mixing up two different essays here.  I differ with him on the here and now aspect in that Bran's vision of Jon suggests that Jon is dead or dying.  Bran uses the term 'as the memory of warmth fled his body".  That's a phrase that GRRM uses to describe the dead on several occassions.  That vision is followed by Bran going north and north and north; peering into the heart of winter.  I've stated before that looking into the heart of something or someone is akin to looking into their mind; where he sees the terrible knowledge in the third eye.  This is something other than the hoard of screamers.  It's also why we are told that you can't be false in front of a heart tree because the old gods can see into your heart.

It's not just an oppressive atmosphere that emanates from somewhere.  It's a spreading corruption that kills almost like a plague.  The quotes from the introduction to the Children of Hurin explain this idea of corruption spreading from the ancient enemy quite well.  This is what brought the term miasma to mind for me. 

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15 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Instead of going through all of these mental gymnastics in trying to connect the two boys, wouldn’t it be easier to try to connect more obvious things first. When I hear green hands I tend to connect that to the Order of The Green Hand. When I see mottling, as a nurse I think of death, as it is in general a sign of a fairly imminent death.

I do not see how green hands and freckles are remotely related other than the fact that they both appear on the skin. If anything, I see freckles more as a sign of life. Just like a plant grows in sunlight, so do freckles. 

Freckles, spots, and mottling come up frequently in association with people who are slaughtered. The speckling is meant to evoke blood spatter. I do get lazy when discussing the same topic multiple times and assume people are familiar with it.

Edited by Melifeather

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15 hours ago, redriver said:

That's not making a whole pile of sense.

Look. I get it. You don't want to recognize the symbolic language in the text - that is unless it's something you've managed to pickup on. 

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8 hours ago, LynnS said:

I remember he said something about miasma but I don't remember what he actually said about it.  I remember looking up the term. 

- an oppressive or unpleasant atmosphere which surrounds or emanates from something. 

I think this also had something to do with what Bran saw in the heart of winter.  I think Voice suggested that it was an undead Dothraki hoard.  Also that Bran's coma dream took place completely in the here and now.  I might be mixing up two different essays here.  I differ with him on the here and now aspect in that Bran's vision of Jon suggests that Jon is dead or dying.  Bran uses the term 'as the memory of warmth fled his body".  That's a phrase that GRRM uses to describe the dead on several occassions.  That vision is followed by Bran going north and north and north; peering into the heart of winter.  I've stated before that looking into the heart of something or someone is akin to looking into their mind; where he sees the terrible knowledge in the third eye.  This is something other than the hoard of screamers.  It's also why we are told that you can't be false in front of a heart tree because the old gods can see into your heart.

It's not just an oppressive atmosphere that emanates from somewhere.  It's a spreading corruption that kills almost like a plague.  The quotes from the introduction to the Children of Hurin explain this idea of corruption spreading from the ancient enemy quite well.  This is what brought the term miasma to mind for me. 

Yeah. Some of those were the older opinions that he had brought up. He’s the one that also felt that Brandon the Builder and the Nights King were both Starks and one and the same. I’d actually throw in Symeon Star Eyes with that one as well. They might not be the exact same person, but at the very least they seem to be versions of one another. As for the Khalasar being  what’s in the heart of winter, I never got the impression that he was tied to it, but rather it was a fun thought, but I’m not exactly sure. It might have changed over time. A lot of you all were here well before I was, so I can’t speak to that time.

It’s been so long since I have read the miasma theory, but IIRC his thought was that the miasma was the storm/winds that were emanating from the North beyond the curtain of light. The cause of it was the cutting of the weirwoods, destruction of the land, and all of the evils that men had brought with them into Westeros. He saw the storm and cold winds themselves as being a way of nature itself to fight back against man. His conclusion was, I believe that only a willing sacrifice, in particular, that of Jon Snow, would be able to return things to how they should be. It also brings to mind how, I think it was @Matthew, (but I’m not positive on that one) argued that the white walkers were made from frozen air, basically, which I tend to agree with as well. Not to mention @wolfmaid7 and her theories both on singing (dragon song, the speech of the CotF and ww, the horns, etc) and her theories on magic. It tied a lot of the little pieces of theories that we all had been working on together well.

It was actually laid out quite extensively. @LmL might remember more as he was sending over people from Reddit to read it. @Sly Wren was very involved in the discussion too. As was @dark sister and I can’t remember who else. It’s difficult to remember the intricacies, and I know I’m not doing it justice. Maybe if the others remember more they can chime in. 

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7 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Freckles, spots, and mottling come up frequently in association with people who are slaughtered. The speckling is meant to evoke blood spatter. I do get lazy when discussing the same topic multiple times and assume people are familiar with it.

Sorry. I just realized how that must have sounded. Please know it wasn’t intended to be disrespectful. Sometimes by the time I finish reading through what people have written, I just get frustrated, as it feels as if we keep spinning in circles over the same things and getting nowhere. Not to mention that I think all of us somehow manage to be both long winded and lazy at the same time. Not sure how that’s possible, but we seem to manage it. SMDH.

In this case, I must admit that this was a new assertion to me. Thanks for taking the time to explain it. I can see where you are going now with the freckles. Without that perspective it didn’t make sense to me. I’m still not positive that I would put them all in the exact same category, but I see how they might be linked.

I know I get pretty snarky at times. I try not to but it just comes naturally. Just know that it isn’t meant to be personally directed at you. You definitely have a much wider knowledge of symbolism than I do, and I have great respect for that. Sometimes the method that you use to draw your conclusions drives me insane as it seems so complicated, but, honestly, by the end of the day we tend to wind up on the same page more often than not.  :cheers:

 

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Oh, but seriously, those of you that have access to TLH should really take a peak at the miasma theory. I may have my differences with Voice, but I do respect him as a theorist. Honestly, I’ve always felt way out of my class and in over my head trying to discuss this stuff with any of you all here. There have been some amazingly intelligent, knowledgeable and creative people here in Heresy that I have been nothing but amazed with over the years. Even What’s his name that we all used to argue with that insisted that Jon Snow was going to fall down a sinkhole. You know who I mean... Texas oilfield guy. What was his name anyways? Wasn’t it something to do with Snow? 

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2 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Oh, but seriously, those of you that have access to TLH should really take a peak at the miasma theory. I may have my differences with Voice, but I do respect him as a theorist. Honestly, I’ve always felt way out of my class and in over my head trying to discuss this stuff with any of you all here. There have been some amazingly intelligent, knowledgeable and creative people here in Heresy that I have been nothing but amazed with over the years. Even What’s his name that we all used to argue with that insisted that Jon Snow was going to fall down a sinkhole. You know who I mean... Texas oilfield guy. What was his name anyways? Wasn’t it something to do with Snow? 

Addicted to Snow.

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28 minutes ago, redriver said:

Addicted to Snow.

Thanks. I just went back earlier and looked it up. He of the Backdoor Sinkhole. Lol. 

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14 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Look. I get it. You don't want to recognize the symbolic language in the text - that is unless it's something you've managed to pickup on. 

Nothing to do with symbolism which I do recognize where I find it.It backs up,colours , embroiders, reinforces the narrative.

I don't recognize time loop theory, using Arya's story to try to figure out Howland.So Mycah has freckles ergo Howland must be a cripple?

Really?

Edited by redriver

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13 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Yeah. Some of those were the older opinions that he had brought up. He’s the one that also felt that Brandon the Builder and the Nights King were both Starks and one and the same. I’d actually throw in Symeon Star Eyes with that one as well. They might not be the exact same person, but at the very least they seem to be versions of one another. As for the Khalasar being  what’s in the heart of winter, I never got the impression that he was tied to it, but rather it was a fun thought, but I’m not exactly sure. It might have changed over time. A lot of you all were here well before I was, so I can’t speak to that time.

It’s been so long since I have read the miasma theory, but IIRC his thought was that the miasma was the storm/winds that were emanating from the North beyond the curtain of light. The cause of it was the cutting of the weirwoods, destruction of the land, and all of the evils that men had brought with them into Westeros. He saw the storm and cold winds themselves as being a way of nature itself to fight back against man. His conclusion was, I believe that only a willing sacrifice, in particular, that of Jon Snow, would be able to return things to how they should be. It also brings to mind how, I think it was @Matthew, (but I’m not positive on that one) argued that the white walkers were made from frozen air, basically, which I tend to agree with as well. Not to mention @wolfmaid7 and her theories both on singing (dragon song, the speech of the CotF and ww, the horns, etc) and her theories on magic. It tied a lot of the little pieces of theories that we all had been working on together well.

It was actually laid out quite extensively. @LmL might remember more as he was sending over people from Reddit to read it. @Sly Wren was very involved in the discussion too. As was @dark sister and I can’t remember who else. It’s difficult to remember the intricacies, and I know I’m not doing it justice. Maybe if the others remember more they can chime in. 

I don't remember much in detail, but essentially yes, for the benefit if those who weren't around at the time it revolved around this business of "the cold winds rising" and a suspicion that the Walkers did indeed ride the winds, as sidhe/spirits and assumed a corporeal form at need from ice crystals. This fits with a lot of the text but but ultimately then raises the question of who [or what] might be be behind the miasma?

And that first crosses over to another question [which I don't recall was much discussed at the time] and then from there to another theory raised by someone not a million miles from this parish

That the cold winds are emanating from behind the curtain of light in Bran's dream seems reasonable, but is this curtain to be found in a geographical location, or is it a metaphorical one?

Remember that ostensibly Conrad's Heart of Darkness lies up a mysterious river in Africa, before we come to realise that it actually lies within. Is the curtain of light away up at the north pole as a superficial reading of Bran's dream might suggest, or does it too lie within? Is it connected with the mystery of Winterfell's version of the Musgrave Ritual and what lies in the forbidden levels of the crypts? And if so what of a certain theory that the winter storms currently afflicting the north appear to emanate from Winterfell?

Edited by Black Crow

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@Black Crow, so, like 5 years later, I finally decided to actually google “Musgrave ritual.” Wish I had done it sooner, as I think it’s a good general description of this entire series as a whole. Then again, I’ve also never been able to make myself ever finish The Heart of Darkness either. That said, I think that you and I actually may be looking at quite similar aspects in the story, just coming at them from different angles.

Anyways, it’s at this point that I think it might be pertinent to look at the three other examples that I see that may well demonstrate what is happening in the North. To me the North and the “Curtain of Light” stands in direct opposition to Ashai and its “Shadow.” I also believe that Valyeria and it’s “Doom” is a repeat of Ashai on a less grand scale, just as whatever it is that occurred at Hardhome is a lesser version of what occurred in the North.

I’m going to leave it here for now to try to reorganize my thoughts on this, as it’s been a while since I had reason to consider this. Meanwhile, I’d be curious as to whether anyone else had any thoughts about it? 

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2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I don't remember much in detail, but essentially yes, for the benefit if those who weren't around at the time it revolved around this business of "the cold winds rising" and a suspicion that the Walkers did indeed ride the winds, as sidhe/spirits and assumed a corporeal form at need from ice crystals. This fits with a lot of the text but but ultimately then raises the question of who [or what] might be be behind the miasma?

And that first crosses over to another question [which I don't recall was much discussed at the time] and then from there to another theory raised by someone not a million miles from this parish

That the cold winds are emanating from behind the curtain of light in Bran's dream seems reasonable, but is this curtain to be found in a geographical location, or is it a metaphorical one?

Remember that ostensibly Conrad's Heart of Darkness lies up a mysterious river in Africa, before we come to realise that it actually lies within. Is the curtain of light away up at the north pole as a superficial reading of Bran's dream might suggest, or does it too lie within? Is it connected with the mystery of Winterfell's version of the Musgrave Ritual and what lies in the forbidden levels of the crypts? And if so what of a certain theory that the winter storms currently afflicting the north appear to emanate from Winterfell?

It's interesting to think that the curtain of light is something that surrounds the heart, protecting Bran from the darkness and likewise that the curtain may also exist as a magical barrier to keep darkness/winter at bay at the top of the world.  A prison devised by magic.  This is something only Bran can see with the third eye, looking into the mind of the enemy.  If this emanates from Winterfell and Bran is looking into the heart of Winterfell, what do you suppose the bones of the fliers impaled with ice spears implies?    

That there is an ancient and evil presence locked down in the crypts seems all too likely.  The white walkers seem to be souls of ice that can be remade into physical form using the snow and ice and cold, according to Stannis.   What if the soul and the body have been kept apart with the bones in the crypt and the soul in the north?  Kept separated by all these magical barriers including the Wall?  

What if it is a greenseer that must maintain the curtain of light?  Is this Bloodraven's primary purpose?  Is this why the cotf fear that Bran has come too late?    BR is almost gone into the tree when Bran arrives.  Is this why Bran must live?  What if the curtain of light is the Wall that matters?

It seems possible to me that the curtain of light imprisons the ancient enemy and separates him from his captains, the white walkers, the bones impaled with spears of ice; and that it is maintained by a powerful greenseer just as the Black Gate is likely maintained by another greenseer.  The Wall that is supposed to be maintained by the Night Watch is the barrier against the undead wights.  It separates everything from Winterfell another prison maintained by the Starks.

If BR is almost gone; that might explain the recent return of the WW but without their master.  Is curtain of light faltering along with BR's demise? 

Edited by LynnS

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On 1/10/2020 at 11:59 PM, redriver said:

Nothing to do with symbolism which I do recognize where I find it.It backs up,colours , embroiders, reinforces the narrative.

I don't recognize time loop theory, using Arya's story to try to figure out Howland.So Mycah has freckles ergo Howland must be a cripple?

Really?

Perhaps.
Each time loop is a “play”, and the characters are “mummers” acting out parts. The story of the play is relatively the same every time it’s repeated, but the characters are played by different mummers each time a new performance begins.

Arya played the same character - the tomboy wolfmaid - that Lyanna did - twice. Lyanna died at the end of her play, but Arya survived each ending. Sansa played the part of “the Lady”, which I suspect was played previously by Ashara.

Act one - Arya enters as the wolfmaid. She travelled with her father and her lady sister to Kings Landing. Once they neared the Trident, Arya played swords with Mycah (the freckled boy). The playing at swords was a small echo of Lyanna and Howland at the Harrenhal Tourney - both suspects for the Knight of the laughing tree.

When Joffrey and Sansa came upon them, the performance had Nymeria bite Joffrey, then Arya threw his sword in the Trident. Their play was smaller - like a children’s theater version of Rhaegar looking for the Knight of the Laughing Tree with his later defeat in the Trident. The two performances were very similar, albeit on a much smaller scale, but the essence of the play was still the same.

Act two - Joffrey is still playing “the prince”, but the wolfmaid and the lady are replaced by understudies: Nymeria and Lady. IMO this character change Is meant to represent the exchange of fates between Ashara and Lyanna. The hunt for the wolfmaid ends with Ned killing Lady in an act of mercy. It’s the play’s finale, and I believe a repeat performance for Ned.

In Arya’s second performance she walks out on stage as a boy. Gendry is brought in to replace Robert, and Lommy the mottled boy replaces Mycah. Hot Pie’s part makes me suspect Lyanna had a third companion, but I am unsure, at this time, who he was. The play begins and the playing at swords turns into the real deal.

sorry. I’ll come back later to finish...

 

never mind. I was going to expand on this, but I think I’d be wasting my time.

Edited by Melifeather

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