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[SPOILERS] Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker

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14 minutes ago, Ran said:

The whole "dyad of the Force" thing was ... actually awesome and clever, and made me feel much better about Rey's strength. I don't know if it's a JJ invention or an EU thing or even something he got from Lucas.

That actually seems to be a concept straight out of the one of the earlier versions of the script for ROTJ - which was originally supposed to play in the Coruscant (or rather: Had Abbadon as it was called then) system, the capital world of the Empire, with two half-constructed Death Stars in orbit, and Endor being 'the Sanctuary moon' (hence that weird reference to Endor by the Emperor in the finished movie) which had been traditionally kept the way it always was.

The final confrontation was supposed to be deep down in the fiery heart of the capital planet, in the Emperor's throne room surrounded by a lava lake, with Luke being aided in his defiance against the Emperor by the Force Ghosts of Obi-Wan and Yoda. Making that all the Jedi is the logical next step when we are at a point when many Jedi actually got names and faces.

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A neat twist would be if Ren's cutting words ("Your parents were nobody") turned out to be deeply accurate, as in dark side slang for literally no parents.  Vader was a virgin birth... Rey could have upped the ante by being born totally free of any biology.   Pure Force, Jim!   The force!  (Somehow in the process removing human weakness from the Rey equation!  Explaining how she intuits force powers more directly than anyone else and justifying her marysue-ism.... by being truly superhuman in origin!)    Eh.

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Well, I enjoyed this a lot more than I was anticipating to. There were definitely some head scratching moments, but I'm easy enough to let them go. 7.5/10 and I'll probably go see it again over the holidays. Imagine what it could've been like had TLJ not skull fucked Luke Skywalker, and I actually didn't mind TLJ. Wasted opportunity but life goes on.

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Just now, The Mother of The Others said:

A neat twist would be if Ren's cutting words ("Your parents were nobody") turned out to be deeply accurate, as in dark side slang for literally no parents.  Vader was a virgin birth... Rey could have upped the ante by being born totally free of any biology.   Pure Force, Jim!   The force!  (Somehow in the process removing human weakness from the Rey equation!  Explaining how she intuits force powers more directly than anyone else and justifying her marysue-ism.... by being truly superhuman in origin!)    Eh.

That would be very weird, to say the least.

The whole force child theme was originally intended to have some sort of payback after TPM. Anakin could have been Palpatine's own child - by means of force manipulation. He could have taken over his master's projects to result in the miracle boy - whether intentionally or unintentionally.

And had they wanted to go in such a direction they should have brought in/back Darth Plagueis in the new movies. There are hints that he and/or Palpatine actually did create Anakin via midi-chlorian manipulation in the Darth Plagueis book - which is perhaps one of the most official Lucas-stamped EU works out there considering Luceno worked very closely with Howard Roffman when writing that novel. Plagueis is in close contact with Gardulla the Hutt in the novel - the previous owner of Anakin and Shmi Skywalker, which leaves open the possibility that Shmi Skywalker was once a specimen in Plagueis' laboratory. And if the guy could save others from death, as Palpatine claims in ROTS, then he could also have done that for himself ... without Palpatine's knowledge, of course.

That would have been a fine new/old villain for the new movies.

By making Rey literally a Palpatine by ways of Palpatine's son (not his daughter, by any means) it seems clear that we actually do have to imagine Emperor Palpatine as a married man with some empress at his side, even if that woman was just a puppet or trophy wife or baby machine confined to some wing of the Imperial Palace.

Strangely enough, in the EU Palpatine does have some kin - there is a mutant son with three eyes whose mother was eventually supposed to be Palpatine's aide and confidant, Sly Moore, who only appears in the very obscure and almost apocryphical Jedi Prince series of novels (whose protagonist is actually a boy named Ken, Triclops' son and thus the alleged grandson of Palpatine).

Then there is Palpatine's third cousin Volpau who shows up as a corpse in a Boba Fett comic, and the most famous Ederlathh Pallopides, a remote great-niece of the Emperor who, according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook, was a contestant for the Imperial Throne after the Battle of Endor.

This sort of clashes with the information from 'Darth Plagueis' where young Palpatine kills his entire core family, his father Cosinga, his nameless mother, his two nameless brothers and his two nameless sisters, making him having a living legitimate niece problematic, but we do learn in the same book that his father Cosinga had a mistress in addition to his wife, so Edderlathh could have been the granddaughter of a half-brother or half-sister of Palpatine that way.

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seagulls poke me in my knees. overall, fast paced and full of intentional badass.  will need to watch again to assess everything.  maybe not a satisfactory conclusion, unearned. i'd've written a lot of it differently. it doesn't much undo VIII, but fails to live up to that film's insights.

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I liked it better than I thought I would which very much surprises given that the spoilers were 100% correct that came out months ago.  But my god JJ Abrams really does think no one uses their brain.  So much stupid.

One actual big thing that really annoyed me....  why isn't it Luke's lightsaber they use and then bury at the end?  Like what the fuck.  The blue one was never his, it was Anakin's.  (And somehow got put back together)  The block at the end with both sabers would have been much better with blue and green as well.

PS... Thought Chewie getting the medal was terrible fan service although I liked JJ's mea culpa with showing him grieve unlike the scene in Force Awakens.

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Well, I had a blast. We can all pick it apart, sure, but it hit all the right notes for me. My opinion is pretty much the same as The Mandalorian. Sure it makes little sense, but it's a very entertaining popcorn flick. The original trilogy had loads of awful acting and absurd plot elements, but we all cherish it. I still have hardly ever re-watched those prequel movies, but as disjointed as Eps 7, 8, and 9 may be, I still had a great time in the theater each time.

Okay, one minor complaint. The horse charge and bow-and-arrow shot was so goddamn stupid that my girl and I were openly groaning, as was half the theater. What happened to the alien horses anyway? And how the hell were they low enough in that planet's magical atmosphere that no one cared? Eh, whatever.

Oh, and on a totally sophomoric note, said girl is madly in lust over Poe, and was upset that his random masked girlfriend had an old-school "What a great ass" shot and he didn't get one. I agreed with her. It was a terrific toosh and got me a deserved hard and audible slap on the thigh. We also both yelled "KISS!!" when Poe and Finn embraced at the end. I'll ship them forever.

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billy dee williams is in it and he was wonderful (82 years old good for him).

Beyond that there isn't really alot I can say In terms of Star Wars material that is out there now just find some way to watch the Mandelorians its much better. It wasn't good it wasn't bad it was just....a movie. I went into this with my expectations pretty low and still feel disappointed. I know I am probably being hard headed about this but this reminds me to much of when Revenge of the Sith came out.  People were willing to forgive alot simply because it wasn't as bad as Clone Wars or Phantom. 

I do have sympathy for anyone who has to do a Star Wars movie now or later its like the Marvel films even though the villians are much more interesting the "good" guys have to win personally I think a movie that ended with Rey ascending the throne and turning to the Dark Side would have been much more interesting. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Crazydog7 said:

(82 years old good for him).

Colt 45: works every time.

 

 

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Overall I liked it. Weak first part, good second half.

Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver are both great, so that helps immensely. Only problem is Kylos final death. The hole cinema laughed...

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4 hours ago, Crazydog7 said:

billy dee williams is in it and he was wonderful (82 years old good for him).

He is that old? Didn't realize that - he doesn't look his age.

4 hours ago, Crazydog7 said:

I do have sympathy for anyone who has to do a Star Wars movie now or later its like the Marvel films even though the villians are much more interesting the "good" guys have to win personally I think a movie that ended with Rey ascending the throne and turning to the Dark Side would have been much more interesting.

That would have been a completely different story, though. Something that could have been very interesting, to be sure, but then - one could just as well have had that kind of story with a child of Luke's or Han-Leia's where a compelling reason for their change was given.

In fact, part of the childishness of the new movies was this weirdo focus on artifacts rather than concepts - that started with TFA with Ren's stupid fetishism of the Vader mask - and the silly mask he wore himself. What the point of that was aside from underlying that he was weird creep was never explained. I mean, Vader's mask did have a purpose, as did the body armor of General Grievous. The Sith never wanted to be dependent on technology to survive - those things were tools to save/prolong life, not something (mentally) healthy people aspire to become. Vader's mask and suit are a testimony to him being a failure - it is a weakness, not a strength, and there is very much a reason why Darth Sidious or Darth Tyranus or even Darth Maul never wore some stupid suit.

If anyone grandchild of Anakin Skywalker's would want to emulate his grandfather he would have to be very weird if he were to focus on aspects of his personality that underlined his defeat - in fact, any Sith wannabe would, most likely, never emulate Vader at all considering the fact that he was a huge failure as a Sith, both insofar as Obi-Wan roasted him, crippling him for life, but also because he betrayed the Sith in the end and (sort of) killed Darth Sidious - which is arguably the greatest betrayal to the Sith Order you could possibly imagine.

Then there is the strange fetishism about the lightsaber in TFA - Anakin's own saber has almost magical qualities in that movie, 'awakening the Force' in Rey (whatever that's supposed to mean). That is nothing that was ever part of Star Wars before - and it actually doesn't have a place there. Lightsabers are cool weapons, but wielding one doesn't really affect you in any way. They have nothing to do with the Force aside from the fact that their crystals are somewhat attuned to it (and you have to be a Force-sensitive to properly construct a lightsaber).

In the new movie we have the weirdo Sith blade or whatever that knife was (I shortly feared it would turn out it was the only weapon to kill Palpatine, but they thankfully did not go in that direction) and the mystical 'Sith throne' - all things that do not really fit well with Star Wars at all.

As for the idea that the Palpatine thing was there from the start:

I've done some thinking, and I really don't think that makes any sense. Just think of how TFA 'introduces' stuff. The Empire as such is abolished and the Sith are never so much as mentioned in that movie. We get the stupid First Order (followed by the evil more stupid Final Order), having a pointless difference in terms by retaining essentially all the old imagery.

If they had wanted to continue the concepts from the old movie they wouldn't have made the Snoke fellow 'the Supreme Leader' of the First Order - after all, you cannot make it clearer than using such a trashy title that you want this guy to be seen as the, you know, supreme leader of that organization. And if they had wanted to remain in Sith territory - which they clearly did not back in TFA - then the Snoke fellow would have been a Darth Something (or at least somebody who presumed to claim the Sith mantle) and if the Emperor had been behind him he would have run the remnants of the Empire - which could have just called that rather than First Order - as a warlord or simply a Dark Lord of the Sith.

It seems completely nonsensical to have the true hierarchy/ruler of the Imperial forces to hide from its very elite. Sure, if there had been some sort of Imperial factionalism a civil war been portrayed in the movies (which wasn't) then this could have made sense - that was the reason why Palpatine stayed hidden in the Dark Empire comics, after all.

But there is really no reason in that story as given why Kylo Ren or anyone in the First Order leadership should not know that they are all Palpatine's goons.

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11 minutes ago, Yawron said:

Overall I liked it. Weak first part, good second half.

Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver are both great, so that helps immensely. Only problem is Kylos final death. The hole cinema laughed...

No one laughed in ours, and I have to say I'm not sure what exactly was funny. Did people forget that this can happen to Jedi?

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16 minutes ago, Ran said:

No one laughed in ours, and I have to say I'm not sure what exactly was funny. Did people forget that this can happen to Jedi?

Yeah, and with Leia's body disappearing at the time time, it was a nice way of showing their family becoming whole again.

 

Overall I liked it. It wasn't perfect by any means, but still.

I really wanted Rey to have a green lightsaber though. Disappointed with the all blue affair.

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Ok,obviously I was slightly annoyed Palpatine was defeated, even though I knew going into the film he would have to be for the plot.

I wish they had done it in a slightly better way though, I mean honestly the guy is not stupid, he’d remember from previous experience carrying on throwing force lightning at a lightsaber was never going to end up good for him, I guess I did like that it was his own power that defeated him in the end though.

 

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

No one laughed in ours, and I have to say I'm not sure what exactly was funny. Did people forget that this can happen to Jedi?

It was the actual death that got the laugh, not the disappearance.

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1 hour ago, Jen'ari said:

I wish they had done it in a slightly better way though, I mean honestly the guy is not stupid, he’d remember from previous experience carrying on throwing force lightning at a lightsaber was never going to end up good for him, I guess I did like that it was his own power that defeated him in the end though.

Well, he is a cliché villain. And who said anything about him being dead now? If you bring a character like him back once after the way he died in ROTJ there is simply no good way to establish his death - especially if there was literally no (good) explanation as to why and how he survived.

And the lack of an explanation there definitely hurts the ending of ROTJ to no small degree because Luke's and Anakin's action are now pretty much entirely meaningless. The main criticism of the whole clone Emperor stick from 'Dark Empire' was always that the sacrifice of ROTJ is meaningless/not very important if Palpatine just got away somehow - especially after the whole Chosen One/balance of the Force angle the PT movies introduced.

Didn't much care for the Force lightning lightsaber reflection scene there - that was already stupid in ROTS, especially since the reflection thing was not there in AOTC with Dooku and Anakin/Obi-Wan (and Yoda's lightsaber could also not stand against Palpatine's Force lightning in ROTS).

A much better variation there would have been if Rey had pulled a Yoda and had been able to absorb and reflect the evil energy. That would have had more symbolic meaning than the scene we got - especially since Rey essentially was/represented all the Jedi in that moment, just as Palpatine represented all the Sith for some reason.

And if they had to drag lightsabers into this - a proper duel could have also worked. Even more so if that rejuvenating ritual had actually, you know, rejuvated Palpatine, turning him into a middle-aged or even young man.

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I liked the scene with the young Leia and Luke training.  They did a good job with the CGI in that one.  It was quick, but it was a nice bit of building to know that this Leia did take time to train for a while. 

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(and who, in some tellings, directly or indirectly was responsible for Anakin's birth in the first place),

my kid was talking to me during the scene where driver explains their respective parentages to ridley. does he make a suggestion to her along these lines, i.e., that mcdiarmid is somehow christensen's progentior?

 

By making Rey literally a Palpatine by ways of Palpatine's son (not his daughter, by any means) it seems clear that we actually do have to imagine Emperor Palpatine as a married man with some empress at his side, even if that woman was just a puppet or trophy wife or baby machine confined to some wing of the Imperial Palace.

do we have a timeline for the setting on this? i assume that mcdiarmid had a family while he was a senator prior to I, though, and his kid disowned him when he went full metal hitler.

Edited by sologdin

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1 hour ago, Rhom said:

I liked the scene with the young Leia and Luke training.  They did a good job with the CGI in that one.  It was quick, but it was a nice bit of building to know that this Leia did take time to train for a while. 

I thought the young Luke worked really well, while the young Leia -- perhaps because of it being more flatly lit -- looked a little off. But it was a nice thing to see.

58 minutes ago, sologdin said:

(and who, in some tellings, directly or indirectly was responsible for Anakin's birth in the first place),my kid was talking to me during the scene where driver explains their respective parentages to ridley. does he make a suggestion to her along these lines, i.e., that mcdiarmid is somehow christensen's progentior?

I don't recall that. The prequel trilogy has Palpatine claiming to that his master before him had experimented with the Force to create life, and that he too knew how to do it. There's an implication that he or Plagueis were responsible for Anakin's birth. OTOH, the Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jin believed the Force itself influenced Anakin's immaculate conception, to fulfill the prophecy of the one who'd bring balance to the force or some such. Some fans have speculatively tried to tie the two views together by saying that as a result of Plagueis and Palpatine messing with the creation of new life, the Force influenced the creation of Anakin to try and restore the balance they upset with such experiments.

I'm not sure any definitive answer exists in the canon.

Edited by Ran

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right. i recall the recitations from I-III on these questions.  and likely we do not need any further confirmation--direct confirmations of the mystical normally weaken the impact of indirect implication.

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