spoilers [SPOILERS] Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Werthead said:

The fact that the Death Star exploded into a trillion pieces in RotJ but it appears pretty large sections of it landed intact on Endor without obliterating the moon shows that perhaps Abrams wasn't paying attention to any of this.

I actually sort of give him the benefit of the doubt for there being some parts of the structure surviving the explosion, considering it would have been an outward explosion, and bigger and smaller pieces may have simply been pushed into space to eventually drop on Endor. But then - the fact that we actually have intact stormtrooper helmets in those ruins really makes this a joke.

But the idea of the Emperor's throne room surving could have worked if it had been only that - or most that - considering that it was actually a sort of Jedi Temple-like spire atop the Death Star proper, meaning that it could indeed have been a piece that was split off rather than destroyed.

But Palpatine would no longer have been in that structure by the time it was split off by the explosion.

1 minute ago, Werthead said:

There's also the bit where Rey is inside the Death Star wreckage and the curvature of the station is visible, which would not be the case if it was really the canonical size of 160km (the canon reset dropping the ludicrous old 900km figure down a reactor shaft is a relief) in diameter. Abrams really is just that shit at working out distances or the laws of physics.

Whether we have to imagine that the shaft in the Emperor's throne room went down to the core reactor I don't know - if so, I have to say that's an even weirder design that the original Death Star flaw thing with the ventillation shaft. I mean, why on earth would the Galactic Emperor want his personal residence to be connected to the reactor of the space station?

@Kalbear and @Toth

Plot convenience is there in both movies up to a point - but the point where the OT is actually light years better is establishing connections between characters and giving them motivations to act. Luke sees Leia and wants to help her. R2 has a job to do and find Obi-Wan. Luke has to get him back. The murder of Owen and Beru cuts Luke's ties with his home. Han Solo has issues with Jabba and desperately needs money. Tarkin's attempt to blackmail Leia by threatening to destroy Alderaan makes sense. Luke and Leia immediately connect during the Death Star escape, something that's deepened by later talks.

All that continues and is worked with in the two sequels.

The new movies have no coherent characterization of the main cast, and coherent arc/opportunity to bond. Poe Dameron doesn't even interact with Rey prior to TROS unless I'm mistaken. Why should they be friends? And Finn is basically an utter mess, as are the secondary character introduced by in the first and second movie. Johnson ignores the ones created by Abrams in his movie, and Abrams does the same to Johnson in TROS. This is not just done with Rose, but also with the immortal bartender (who original was some sort of Obi-Wan/Yoda-like figure).

In the OT we do have Leia and Luke getting close in ANH, and Han and Luke getting buddies, too - and they are best friends in TESB when Han risks his own life to save Luke in the snow. That's the way to depict a deep friendship that developed between movies. Then there is the fledging romance between Han and Leia in TESB, too. All that works very well.

In the new movies personal motivations (I want to save/help my friend(s)) are replaced by weirdo MacGuffins (map to Luke Skywalker, code-cracker plan, another MapGuffin to the magical Sith planet) instead of an actual story.

[Kalbear]

21 minutes ago, Ran said:

Pixar's Rule #19: 

So all the coincidences in TFA are fine then, by that logic, as getting the Falcon definitely put Rey and Finn in far more trouble than just grabbing some shitty ship. 

[Ran]

5 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

So all the coincidences in TFA are fine then, by that logic, as getting the Falcon definitely put Rey and Finn in far more trouble than just grabbing some shitty ship. 

I don't know about anyone else, but I definitely had no problem with the Falcon being on Jakku and then that leading to Han and Chewie. That was fun. I did have issue with Rey's characterization in the first film (also a little bit of Finn's characterization, too, but less so), which is not the same thing as plot developments, but as I've noted elsewhere they backed away from the things that bugged me a tad in the movies that followed.

[Kalbear]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

@Kalbear and @Toth

Plot convenience is there in both movies up to a point - but the point where the OT is actually light years better is establishing connections between characters and giving them motivations to act. Luke sees Leia and wants to help her. R2 has a job to do and find Obi-Wan. Luke has to get him back. The murder of Owen and Beru cuts Luke's ties with his home. Han Solo has issues with Jabba and desperately needs money. Tarkin's attempt to blackmail Leia by threatening to destroy Alderaan makes sense. Luke and Leia immediately connect during the Death Star escape, something that's deepened by later talks.

 All that continues and is worked with in the two sequels.

 The new movies have no coherent characterization of the main cast, and coherent arc/opportunity to bond. Poe Dameron doesn't even interact with Rey prior to TROS unless I'm mistaken. Why should they be friends? And Finn is basically an utter mess, as are the secondary character introduced by in the first and second movie. Johnson ignores the ones created by Abrams in his movie, and Abrams does the same to Johnson in TROS. This is not just done with Rose, but also with the immortal bartender (who original was some sort of Obi-Wan/Yoda-like figure).

In the OT we do have Leia and Luke getting close in ANH, and Han and Luke getting buddies, too - and they are best friends in TESB when Han risks his own life to save Luke in the snow. That's the way to depict a deep friendship that developed between movies. Then there is the fledging romance between Han and Leia in TESB, too. All that works very well.

In the new movies personal motivations (I want to save/help my friend(s)) are replaced by weirdo MacGuffins (map to Luke Skywalker, code-cracker plan, another MapGuffin to the magical Sith planet) instead of an actual story.

I mostly agree with this. (Poe was introduced fondly to Rey at the end of TLJ). Part of the biggest problem is that TLJ happens immediately after TFA, because it sort of has to; we have to find out what the deal is with Luke and can't wait multiple years, we have to have some payoff to that cliffhanger, and unless you're willing to have Rey sit around there for multiple years and can come up with some reason why Luke has been there for all that time without kicking ass, you pretty much have to start it out right away. This gives no 'they stayed best of friends' thing.

But on ANH - yes, I agree, that was my point entirely. It works better because the reasons are emotional and grounded in relationships, not grounded in MacGuffins. Both have a MacGuffin at their core (the death star plans, the map) but that almost immediately gets put by the wayside for relationships and interests. Luke is genuinely excited at Ben knowing his father and having this history and having this bitchin' sword, and then he wants away from Tattooine because it has too much sand his foster parents died. Plus he totally wants to bone Leia. Rey doesn't have anything about this by comparison; she wants to help BB-8, and then later Finn, but why? Because...she hates the first order, for reasons? Because she wants to help the resistance, for reasons? As far as I can tell her primary motivation is 'Jakku fucking sucks', which, fair, but nothing as compelling as Luke's journey. Finn has a slightly more compelling thing - avenge the death of the hottie Poe, and also help the resistance - but it's still not nearly that good. 

In both cases what matters isn't the coincidences at all. That's not the problem. The problem is the emotional heft of the reasoning, and that's just not there. It IS there in TLJ, by comparison - Rey wants to know more about her newfound power and Luke seems to know a ton about it, plus she's heavily invested in revenge for Han and helping the resistance. Finn is for whatever reason super interested in saving Rey and is willing to do whatever it takes, which is apparently some bad moves here and there. And Ren is wanting to deal with his defeat and show that he can be this power that he's set himself up to be. The emotional connections aren't as strong, but they're certainly there - but not in TFA or TROS. 

1 minute ago, Ran said:

I don't know about anyone else, but I definitely had no problem with the Falcon being on Jakku and then that leading to Han and Chewie. That was fun. I did have issue with Rey's characterization in the first film (also a little bit of Finn's characterization, too, but less so), which is not the same thing as plot developments, but as I've noted elsewhere they backed away from the things that bugged me a tad in the movies that followed.

That's cool, but I get the impression @Toth is not as forgiving as you are. 

[Werthead]

The plot contrivances in ANH are actually more of an issue because of George Lucas's retcons. If Luke and Leia are not siblings (as he didn't fully settle on until RotJ) and Luke is not Vader's son (as Lucas didn't decide until ESB), and Obi-Wan is just keeping an eye on his slain friend's son rather than trying to protect the son of Vader (in which case you wouldn't hide him on frigging Tatooine in the first place), and of course Obi-Wan has never seen Artoo before (as was originally the case), then the coincidences are less problematic.

[Kalbear]

50 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The plot contrivances in ANH are actually more of an issue because of George Lucas's retcons. If Luke and Leia are not siblings (as he didn't fully settle on until RotJ) and Luke is not Vader's son (as Lucas didn't decide until ESB), and Obi-Wan is just keeping an eye on his slain friend's son rather than trying to protect the son of Vader (in which case you wouldn't hide him on frigging Tatooine in the first place), and of course Obi-Wan has never seen Artoo before (as was originally the case), then the coincidences are less problematic.

Sure, that's fair. Oddly, Rey's power in the force is less problematic if she's the granddaughter of Palpatine (I guess) and has psychometry (better). And her connection with Finn is less problematic if he's force-sensitive. And the dyad thing makes TLJ make a bit less sense (Snoke apparently didn't know about it, but Palpatine easily finds out?) but makes TFA make more sense. 

I went back and watched RotJ and RotS shortly after TRoS (apparently because I had to watch anything with an R in it) and it was striking how the friendships mattered as plot drivers so much more. Obi-Wan's entire arc is largely to do with his relationship with Anakin, and Anakin's hatred of Obi-Wan stems entirely from that feeling of betrayal. It is horribly wooden and whatnot, but the notion of the personal is really there. RotJ is of course hugely based on the group friendship and personal views, including Luke's confidence that things will work out due to his faith in his friends and basically nothing else. TRoS (and really much of the sequel trilogy, but especially TRoS) has none of that as drivers. Things are largely internal emotions - Rey's feelings of her background is much of the driver, and Ren doesn't choose to become good, exactly, he is healed externally (including his scar, nice!) and then externally by Leia's sacrifice and his personal choice with Han. But it isn't because of Rey, and Rey doesn't fight the emperor because of her friends either. The closest you get to any of that would be them choosing to go save Chewie, but even then it was 'and also get that dagger'. 

[Ran]

10 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Snoke apparently didn't know about it, but Palpatine easily finds out?

If I recall right, he didn't realize until he started zapping them with force lightning, and that began to revitalize him. 

[Kalbear]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

If I recall right, he didn't realize until he started zapping them with force lightning, and that began to revitalize him. 

Something like that? But still, you'd think given what Snoke does to Rey that he'd figure out something there. Or that their connection would make it clearer too. For that matter, how the fuck does Ren know about it? 

[Caligula_K3]

That was... Pretty average. This is coming from someone who really enjoyed The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi. There were some great moments and scenes; mostly everything with Ren and Rey was great. But so many interesting story choices were undercut five minutes later, because nobody stays dead; Rey being responsible for Chewie's death, for one. Similarly, I'm unclear why we needed so many new characters added to the storyline; none of them had any time to breath, and it meant that many of the old characters didn't either.  

The first two-thirds was insanely frantic in its pacing, and the Mcguffin hunt got very tiring, very fast. The last third was a ridiculous amount of fan service thrown at me at once, with scenes alternating between the deepest despair and "look, that person/thing you liked is back, so it's all ok!," giving me whiplash. The Kylo Ren/Rey ending should have landed, but it didn't, because at that point 50 characters had miraculously come back from the dead, and all dramatic tension had been lost.

I'm pretty disappointed in Abrams for this one. I know Johnson messed up some of his plans, but I think he could have benefitted from letting his ego go and rolling with some of the interesting things that Johnson did in the Last Jedi, instead of ignoring it all (Rose, having Kylo Ren be the main villain) or using snide dialogue to criticize it (the Luke scene). That Luke scene especially makes me glad that Johnson had his turn with the character, because what he did is infinitely more interesting than "wise Jedi mentor #235" that we got here. I'm also kind of in disbelief that he couldn't let go of the planet destroying weapon idea after all the criticism Starkiller Base got in VII, even from those who liked the movie; 1,000 star destroyer death stars? Really? Is that where we needed to go?   

All this said, it was fun enough, in a forgettable, cheesy, popcorn way. As someone who didn't mind most of Abrams' retreads in episode VII because it was a reintroduction to Star Wars and the movie/characters were well done enough for it to work, and as someone who really enjoyed Johnson trying new things in VIII, even though not all of it worked, I just wish there had been some creativity and a lot more soul here.  

[Ran]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Something like that? But still, you'd think given what Snoke does to Rey that he'd figure out something there.

I don't recall what he does exactly. I don't remember him using force lightning, though -- doesn't he mostly just toss her around?

Quote

Or that their connection would make it clearer too. For that matter, how the fuck does Ren know about it? 

Did Kylo/Ben know about why they were connected as they were? I don't recall him saying anything after the dyad business was revealed (I think people have had fun with the fact that his last words are "Ow!", uttered after his jump across that pit to the chain.)

[Kalbear]

So on this whole 'Ren can't be the final villain' thing - I think that it could have worked out. If instead of going for yet another planet destroying weapon, Ren instead decided to become incredibly powerful in the force. He sees how he failed to beat Luke again, and this motivates him to study even more - and went and found out the secrets of returning someone back from the dead. 

And he tries to bring back Vader, but fails to realize that Vader is one with the force now and can't be brought back, so instead when he does his mystical ritual at the site of the Death star's crash where Vader died, he brings back...the Emperor. At that point you can go a lot of different ways - make Ren have his redemption arc at that point, have Ren get possessed by the emperor and have Rey fight them both, etc - but Ren would then be both a different kind of villain and a different kind of threat than before AND would have less repetition. Going into the mysteries of the force and some new stuff is cool and interesting (the dyad bit comes out of nowhere but is fine, and the healing thing is cool) but it would mostly be interesting to see a different kind of dark force user. (I personally was hoping he wouldn't be redeemed, but others love that, so fanfic to your tastes). 

You'd need to figure out something for Finn and Poe to do that isn't come in and save the day, but maybe you build on TLJ and have their action not be the desperate win, but instead be the equivalent of Normandy - the big assault with allied troops that shows that the tide is irrevocably turning. 

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

Did Kylo/Ben know about why they were connected as they were? I don't recall him saying anything after the dyad business was revealed (I think people have had fun with the fact that his last words are "Ow!", uttered after his jump across that pit to the chain.)

I don't know if anyone knows why they were connected. Just that they were. 

[Toth]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

The only reason that Obi-Wan is looking for R2 is because of Luke, right - without Luke being there, R2 just wanders around and gets smashed by some raiders or something. 

Again, HUGE contrivances to get R2 to Obi-Wan on its own. Even if R2 knows the coordinates (and there's no sign of that in the movies), the idea that R2 could just roll across a desert to get to him? Come on. 

I don't think any of that is a reasonable supposition. Sorry, don't buy it. But even if it is accurate - let's go with the notion that Lars says no, Luke says no, and they just sit on the planet. Empire wins, game over. So even in your best scenario the whole story is busted.

Maybe it's too late, but I... I really don't know what you are even arguing for in the first place. All I did was lay out the characters and their motivations as they were presented in ANH and how the audience would perceive it with knowledge of at most ESB, because as Werthead points out correctly, later retcons giving R2 and 3PO a personal connection to Anakin do make the set-up look far more contrived than it should be. When ANH was first released nobody knew that these characters are all interconnected, so them finding together through both the combination of stated goals and circumstances doesn't seem quite as jarring as people getting together in TFA because they inexplicably know that they are main characters and have to get together to make the plot work.

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Exactly - my point is that you conveniently ignore them when they're about movies you like, and focus on them when they're movies you don't like. The Jakku thing is a good example - you can use all of those fanwanks about Obi-Wan in the same way as Max Von Sydow if you like. Boom, all the issues go away, right? It's not like we have textual examples of what you're talking about; what makes that explanation not as strong?

I didn't even adress anything about Max von Sydow. What are you talking about? Have you seen me saying anywhere that some dude living on Jakku is somehow a contrivance? Given that the story gives us nothing whatsoever about who he is and how he got the map to Luke, the only thing about him I can do is shrug. He is barely a character. Where do you see a similarity with Obi-Wan? Are you from the future and have seen a new sequel prequel trilogy where Max von Sydow is Rey's mother's former roommate?

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

I would argue because you're simply unwilling to give the charity to one, and willing to give the charity to the other. 

Okay, I give you the benefit of the doubt that you have just seen me using an example of contrivances in TFA that should illustrate the pattern in which the movie shows its overall carelessness and thought all I'm doing is nitpicking. In that case: Sorry if I phrased things in a way that didn't get my point across. English is not my first language and frankly I'm mostly sick of explaining myself to people who are just waiting for a "Gotcha!" moment where they can make me say that the OT is just as bad or inferior as the ST. I'm not blind to the OT's flaws, you know. And I am aware that I might give the ST a pass on some of its bullshit if it wasn't drowning in it.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

I mostly agree with this. (Poe was introduced fondly to Rey at the end of TLJ). Part of the biggest problem is that TLJ happens immediately after TFA, because it sort of has to; we have to find out what the deal is with Luke and can't wait multiple years, we have to have some payoff to that cliffhanger, and unless you're willing to have Rey sit around there for multiple years and can come up with some reason why Luke has been there for all that time without kicking ass, you pretty much have to start it out right away. This gives no 'they stayed best of friends' thing.

Yes, that's basically one of the main reasons why TFA completely fails. It doesn't really tell a story with the 'Luke map plot' - and the other plot is the remake of ANH. There is essentially nothing of substance there. In a sense it is oddly like TPM in that sense - which is also more a prologue than an actual story. I was sixteen when I watched TPM, having been a Star Wars geek collecting EU stuff for five years, and my first thought about the plot after reading this thing was - 'We are going to have about four more hours to cover Anakin becoming a Jedi and a Sith while there will also be a romance and the transformation of the Republic into an Empire?! How is that going to work???'

[Sort of as relevant a question as the other George's claim he can bring the other series to a successful conclusion in just two more novels...]

TFA wasted two hours looking for the man we would have liked to see in a Star Wars sequel in the very first or second scene.

And it did indeed call for the sequel to start immediately after the end of TFA, which also was a very stupid setup to make.

I mean, honestly, either they really had no idea what story to tell, or they deliberately wanted to make TFA a clickbait movie thinking that everybody wanted a remake rather than a sequel/continuation, anyway.

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

But on ANH - yes, I agree, that was my point entirely. It works better because the reasons are emotional and grounded in relationships, not grounded in MacGuffins. Both have a MacGuffin at their core (the death star plans, the map) but that almost immediately gets put by the wayside for relationships and interests. Luke is genuinely excited at Ben knowing his father and having this history and having this bitchin' sword, and then he wants away from Tattooine because it has too much sand his foster parents died. Plus he totally wants to bone Leia. Rey doesn't have anything about this by comparison; she wants to help BB-8, and then later Finn, but why? Because...she hates the first order, for reasons? Because she wants to help the resistance, for reasons? As far as I can tell her primary motivation is 'Jakku fucking sucks', which, fair, but nothing as compelling as Luke's journey. Finn has a slightly more compelling thing - avenge the death of the hottie Poe, and also help the resistance - but it's still not nearly that good. 

Finn is actually worse in my opinion. He basically has no back story, and instead of properly starting his first start towards a (supporting) hero role, he is actually a coward for most of the movie (hence he is actually sort of like a a movie with Threepio as main character would be) - and in the end it is Rey he wants to save, not fight his old comrades. There was the germ of a romance there - but then this whole thing completely evaporated.

TFA is pretty much a completely empty movie. Rey is a complete unknown with essentially no hint about her parentage/identity, Han's sons issues are completely unclear (and never get actually clearer insofar as his motivation to be evil is concerned), nor is a reason given for Luke's absence (making it relevant mystery why the main Star Wars hero isn't there is essentially a confession that you don't have a real story to tell) or shed any light on any of the other characters: Why is there a Resistance and a Republic (consisting of one system)? What exactly is the First Order? Who is this Snoke fellow (we still don't know who or what he was)? Who/what is the immortal bartender? How can Han Solo work as a smuggler again (he must be a celebrity of some sort)? Why do lightsabers 'awaken the Force'? How did the bartender get Anakin/Luke's old saber? What's 'a knight of Ren' (I still don't know that, nor do I know whether such people can talk)?

ANH established that the Empire was evil (and showed that), indicated that it was the successor of the good government of the Old Republic, established that there is a Rebellion of good guys (including crucial Imperial politicians like Leia and her father) against the Empire, explained what the Jedi were and what the Force is, gave us a good picture about lightsabers and what they can do, established some basics about droids and their uses, and quite a little bit about various vehicles.

Most importantly, it established clear relationships between various main characters - Ben-Luke-Owen, Leia-Ben, Han-Jabba, Han-Chewie, Han-Luke-Leia, Ben-Vader, Vader-Luke (the story that the Vader allegedly killed Luke's dad), Tarkin-Vader, Vader-Tarkin, Leia-Tarkin, etc.

TFA completely fails to give us any sort of preliminary tapestry of relationships. We don't know how Leia, Luke, Han are connected to Snoke/the First Order, and what we get about their son and Snoke is just that the guy seduced him to the dark side - which is the same stuff we got from Ben about Vader in ANH, meaning that's just a rehash. We have more implied history of Leia-Vader and Leia-Tarkin in ANH, more information about the history of the galaxy in that movie than we ever get in TFA (e.g. the Death Star confererence about the Emperor and the Imperial Senate, the bickering between the Imperial officers, Vader's references indicating that he had had conflicts with the Rebels before, Leia and Tarkin acknowledging they know each other (just as Leia knew Vader), even the droids establish that they have been in some trouble before.

By comparison TFA is just empty, devoid of meaning. It just copies ANH on a superficial level, not adding anything of substance. And with its new weirdo terminology (First Order and Final Order is just such nonsense) it also creates a need for explanation (i.e. why don't the Imperials just call themselves 'the Empire). In fact, if they had stuck to Empire, or 'remaining forces of the Empire', or had gone with the EU term of 'Imperial Remnant', very few people - myself included - wouldn't have demanded an explanation. It would hav established that there was something of the Empire left, after all, whereas we really don't know how those new guys are connected to the old guard.

But even that wouldn't have answered the Republican situation, or who the hell Snoke was.

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

In both cases what matters isn't the coincidences at all. That's not the problem. The problem is the emotional heft of the reasoning, and that's just not there. It IS there in TLJ, by comparison - Rey wants to know more about her newfound power and Luke seems to know a ton about it, plus she's heavily invested in revenge for Han and helping the resistance. Finn is for whatever reason super interested in saving Rey and is willing to do whatever it takes, which is apparently some bad moves here and there. And Ren is wanting to deal with his defeat and show that he can be this power that he's set himself up to be. The emotional connections aren't as strong, but they're certainly there - but not in TFA or TROS.

Yeah, something is there, although the point for such things should have been in the first movie. After all, giving the fact that we have a previous generation of heroes to work with, there was every opportunity to make our heroes their children, the friends of the children, or the Jedi from Luke's Jedi Academy. They could have introduced the characters and their relationship literally in 5-10 minutes at the start of TFA and then continued with the plot. There was no need to make this a movie about people who first have to meet each other.

2 hours ago, Toth said:

I didn't even adress anything about Max von Sydow. What are you talking about? Have you seen me saying anywhere that some dude living on Jakku is somehow a contrivance? Given that the story gives us nothing whatsoever about who he is and how he got the map to Luke, the only thing about him I can do is shrug. He is barely a character. Where do you see a similarity with Obi-Wan? Are you from the future and have seen a new sequel prequel trilogy where Max von Sydow is Rey's mother's former roommate?

That guy is also just nonsense. Why use completely unknown characters like the Dameron fellow and the old guy nobody ever saw as characters if there is literally a very long list of characters from the OT one could have chosen for this?

I mean, Obi-Wan has a role on Tatooine, right? It would have been rather odd if he had been just some other old dude who quickly died and who had no connection to any Skywalker or Jedi but was instead some old friend's of Bail Organa's who had some magical Kenobi map.

And I'm so sick of this 'we have to find thing/person X plot device'. Lucas had that to some degree in AOTC but it is more a contrived detective plot than a we have to find some magical item/person thing. But the others have no such things, they don't make 'a plan' at some point and then they execute that to defeat the villain, they more often than not go somewhere, then something happens, and they have to change things or improvise. The only movie they have a plan is ROTJ, and that one barely works - and that only because it is designed as a bad trap. A trap the moronic Emperor copies exactly in this way in TROS - which makes him perhaps the most pitiful/stupid villain in movie history.

[RumHam]

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What's 'a knight of Ren' (I still don't know that, nor do I know whether such people can talk)?

Apparently a comic recently revealed that "ren" just means lightsaber. Which is pretty stupid. It was also the alias of the founder of the order.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Ren

[karaddin]

I think Ren as the main villain could have worked, and was what RJ seemed to set the story up for, but is incompatible with redeeming him being one of the main plot points. Which I also think was the direction TLJ points in. The movie basically closes with Rey literally shutting the door in his face and on their connection.

That clearly wasn't the story they wanted to tell though, which is why TLJ left them in the situation of trying to set the final leg up in the opening crawl.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

6 hours ago, Kalbear said:

 

But even with all that, it is beyond bizarre coincidence that C3P0 and R2D2 end up with Luke and his family given what we know about the prequels, or even with what we know about why Obi-Wan is there on Tattooine at all. 

It’s 2 to the power of 867893248

and then those odds just keep doubling with every event that occurs

[sifth]

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

I think Ren as the main villain could have worked, and was what RJ seemed to set the story up for, but is incompatible with redeeming him being one of the main plot points. Which I also think was the direction TLJ points in. The movie basically closes with Rey literally shutting the door in his face and on their connection.

That clearly wasn't the story they wanted to tell though, which is why TLJ left them in the situation of trying to set the final leg up in the opening crawl.

If RJ wanted to set Kylo Ren up as the main villain for the next film...............maybe................just maybe, he shouldn't have ended TLJ, by making the guy look like a complete idiot. You know I always find villains that are made to look stupid to be a real threats.

Luke humiliating the guy in front of his own army, pretty much made it impossible for me to ever fear the character.

[Raja]

Lmao

[karaddin]

I don't understand why so many people seem to need someone to be competent and measured to be scary. An emotional unstable but powerful asshole doesn't have to be competent to get to the top and they don't even need intent to do damage. A petulant child with the powers of a god is terrifying.

I suspect it has to do with the relationship with fearing people in our lives.

[sifth]

37 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I don't understand why so many people seem to need someone to be competent and measured to be scary. An emotional unstable but powerful asshole doesn't have to be competent to get to the top and they don't even need intent to do damage. A petulant child with the powers of a god is terrifying.

I suspect it has to do with the relationship with fearing people in our lives.

So basically you're a Joffrey fan I take it? You love it when your villains are basically unstable babies, who are only still alive because the plot demands them to be? I much rather prefer strong, competent villains, such as Tywin. To each their own I suppose.