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Mrstrategy

Alternate wife for Robert baratheon

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Cersei is clearly the most desireable woman for the king at that point. There weren't that many choices available tbh. He could, after the war marry one of the Stokeworth girls, to expand lands directly administered by the king. He could marry one of the Hightowers. Malora the mad maid is the eldest, and seems to have magic, but is considered insane. Leyla is 12 and Lynesse was 9 at the time. Hightowers would be a good choice if he intended to replace Tyrells as Lords Paramouts of the Reach. Selyse and Delena florent also could play into this. On the other hand he may want to strenghten the ties of the Stormlords to him, in which case Jeyne Swanna and Mylenda Caron would be decentish choices. 

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On 12/23/2019 at 10:50 PM, frenin said:

You do, especially when you want to make sure those men aren't going to support the people you have just overthrown, the examples you've given don't really add up, not only the context is very different but the Reach are simply too powerful to be just dismissed and just their support meant that the Targs had a very strong powerbase,  taking the Hightowers from them, practically destroys every chance of a future rebellion, since there can be a rebellion against Robert without the Reach and every Reach lord would think thrice before running to a Targ knowing where the power of Olftown stood.

The only reason Tywin would get to be first would before the Sack, when the rebels needed to know where he stood. 

 

Why?? Tywin sacked KL with no intention of getting a royal marriage,  only to prove himself a rebel, you're giving him a motivation he himself didn't have.

Robert can never take the Hightowers, or the Redwynes, from the Tyrells. They are too intermarried at this point. They are one big extended family. Robert is not dismissing the Reach, but neither is he going to reward rebels with marriage and improved status over allies that helped him win the war. As defeated lords, neither the Hightowers, Tyrells or the Redwynes should have any expectation that they will now be graced with a royal marriage, so there is no reason for them to rebel if they don't get one. Tywin, on the other hand, basically handed King's Landing to Robert and his men killed not only the sitting king but his heir as well. He would have every expectation to be handsomely rewarded and every reason to be wroth if his daughter, the only viable maid at this point, is passed over for the daughter of some lesser lord, let alone a foe who held out to the bitter end, and after.

Recall that the only great houses who remained loyal to Aerys were the Tyrells and the Martells. These two are not likely to join in rebellion any time soon, nor can the Tyrells, despite their power, hope to prevail against the Iron Throne that is now firmly backed by Casterly Rock, Storm's End, the Eyrie, Riverrun and Winterfell. This is the alliance that beat them once, there is no reason they couldn't do it again. But peel Casterly Rock from that alliance and the calculus changes. Therefore, Robert is much better off keeping Casterly Rock happy than Highgarden.

Tywin had every intention of getting a royal marriage at the time of the sack. It is plain to everyone that he has the only viable queen at this point. The man is not a fool. He would in no way have risked the life of his favorite son if he did not expect to be handsomely rewarded, and not just in lands and gold. He wanted two things: a grandson on the Iron Throne someday, and Jaime released from the kingsguard. He was refused his son back; he would have broken all ties with Robert, and might even have gone to war right then and there to depose him, if he did not get the marriage he wanted.

Cersei was the only viable option, and everyone -- Tywin, Robert, Jon Arryn and even Ned -- knew this.

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51 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Robert can never take the Hightowers, or the Redwynes, from the Tyrells. They are too intermarried at this point. They are one big extended family. Robert is not dismissing the Reach, but neither is he going to reward rebels with marriage and improved status over allies that helped him win the war. As defeated lords, neither the Hightowers, Tyrells or the Redwynes should have any expectation that they will now be graced with a royal marriage, so there is no reason for them to rebel if they don't get one. Tywin, on the other hand, basically handed King's Landing to Robert and his men killed not only the sitting king but his heir as well. He would have every expectation to be handsomely rewarded and every reason to be wroth if his daughter, the only viable maid at this point, is passed over for the daughter of some lesser lord, let alone a foe who held out to the bitter end, and after.

 

He can, is only a matter of whom the Lord of Oldtown might rather to support and whoever he decides, he's not taking arms against the crown if he's married to them. Not that they are one big extended family, their ties only covers a generation and we see with Lysa, Robb and Joffrey how easily breakable those ties are.

Tywin got late to the party so he can't complain,  in fact Robert handing over Stannis would've been just as rich.

 

56 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 Recall that the only great houses who remained loyal to Aerys were the Tyrells and the Martells. These two are not likely to join in rebellion any time soon, nor can the Tyrells, despite their power, hope to prevail against the Iron Throne that is now firmly backed by Casterly Rock, Storm's End, the Eyrie, Riverrun and Winterfell. This is the alliance that beat them once, there is no reason they couldn't do it again. But peel Casterly Rock from that alliance and the calculus changes. Therefore, Robert is much better off keeping Casterly Rock happy than Highgarden.

 

Since is less likely than Casterly Rock may join the dragons, after what they pulled and expect get out unscathed, Robert needs to start winning over those houses whose alligiance he doesn't have.

 

 

58 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 Tywin had every intention of getting a royal marriage at the time of the sack. It is plain to everyone that he has the only viable queen at this point. The man is not a fool. He would in no way have risked the life of his favorite son if he did not expect to be handsomely rewarded, and not just in lands and gold. He wanted two things: a grandson on the Iron Throne someday, and Jaime released from the kingsguard. He was refused his son back; he would have broken all ties with Robert, and might even have gone to war right then and there to depose him, if he did not get the marriage he wanted.

 

You may want to have that discussion with him, because Tywin makes clear that all he wants is be on the winning side, nothing else nothing more, you're basically making a claim Tywin never does, quite the opposite actually, and starting your argument from there.

When Tywin makes his move,  Lyanna is still alive and Robert's intention of taking her back were well known, Tywin didn't have a marriage match with Robert in mind.

 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

 Cersei was the only viable option, and everyone -- Tywin, Robert, Jon Arryn and even Ned -- knew this.

And yet had Lyanna ever lived, Tywin would've gotten nothing.

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Kinda don't want any woman to have to endure Robert, since he was very clearly a rapist. And probably also had a lot of STDs. Really great for the wife: You're not allowed to sleep around or you and your children will be murdered, but you have to live with all of the negative consequences of sleeping around. :ack:

I really don't blame Cersei for killing him.

PS: Sorry, I know it's a political question

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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On 12/24/2019 at 11:34 AM, James Steller said:

I’d be very interested in how that relationship would work. On the one hand, Stannis is a cold man who isn’t great talking to women, and Cersei would have definitely hated that, not would she appreciate his dry wit. Plus he’s not as handsome as Jaime or as skilled at fighting. One the other hand, Stannis wouldn’t be sleeping around or getting drunk like Robert, and he certainly wouldn’t have hit her or whispered another woman’s name in bed. Plus he is also an accomplished general who is just as calculating and shrewd as Tywin, and for a woman with such daddy issues as Cersei, she’d be familiar with a lot of Stannis’ unsmiling manner and disposition. It’s not just me saying that either, Tyrion compares Stannis and Tywin at least once or twice IIRC. Maybe Cersei would have been bizarrely attracted to Stannis? Though she would have hated living on Dragonstone.

Stannis makes Robert seems like a good husband. He is dull, blunt, whiner, stuborn, selfish, even more self righteous than Robert, does not understand mockery or jokes, has no friends, was never attractive, the way he treats Cressen in the prologue shows that he can be ungrateful.

Cersei would be a more miserable version of Anne Boleyn...since I doubt that she would be any better with Stannis than she was with Robert, and Stannis isn't dumb to not realise that his wife was cucking him, and not mercyful to look for an alternative solution.

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29 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Stannis makes Robert seems like a good husband. He is dull, blunt, whiner, stuborn, selfish, even more self righteous than Robert, does not understand mockery or jokes, has no friends, was never attractive, the way he treats Cressen in the prologue shows that he can be ungrateful.

Cersei would be a more miserable version of Anne Boleyn...since I doubt that she would be any better with Stannis than she was with Robert, and Stannis isn't dumb to not realise that his wife was cucking him, and not mercyful to look for an alternative solution.

Well. Stannis wouldn't abuse her, physically at least.

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6 minutes ago, frenin said:

Well. Stannis wouldn't abuse her, physically at least.

Not at the start... but I wouldn't put it above him, once Cersei starts to refuse to bed him like she did with Robert.

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12 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Not at the start... but I wouldn't put it above him, once Cersei starts to refuse to bed him like she did with Robert.

Hmmm I would. That's horrible.

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1 minute ago, frenin said:

Hmmm I would. That's horrible.

Yes it is... but Stannis is the guy that was burning people alive, cut the fingers of the guy that saved his life and mocked the maester that served him for years and killed his younger brother.

Stannis is too self righteous, and would feel entitled to bed Cersei at his will just like Robert.

 

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Yes it is... but Stannis is the guy that was burning people alive, cut the fingers of the guy that saved his life and mocked the maester that served him for years and killed his younger brother.

Stannis is too self righteous, and would feel entitled to bed Cersei at his will just like Robert.

 

I'm not arguing that Stannis is a good person but he wouldn't abuse Cersei, not physically at least.

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3 minutes ago, frenin said:

I'm not arguing that Stannis is a good person but he wouldn't abuse Cersei, not physically at least.

Stannis would see bedding Cersei as his right and her duty, she would not want him and he would force himself on her...it would be a marital rape like she suffered under Robert.

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1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

Stannis would see bedding Cersei as his right and her duty, she would not want him and he would force himself on her...it would be a marital rape like she suffered under Robert.

Who knows, but what is clear is that she wouldn't suffer  marital rape often or beat her, she would suffer disdain.

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12 minutes ago, frenin said:

 Who knows, but what is clear is that she wouldn't suffer  marital rape often or beat her, she would suffer disdain.

Why do you belive she wouldn't suffer marital rape from Stannis?

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On 12/28/2019 at 1:54 PM, frenin said:

He can, is only a matter of whom the Lord of Oldtown might rather to support and whoever he decides, he's not taking arms against the crown if he's married to them. Not that they are one big extended family, their ties only covers a generation and we see with Lysa, Robb and Joffrey how easily breakable those ties are.

He might be able to in theory, but one marriage is not going to alter the bonds between Oldtown and Highgarden (and Redwynes and Fossoways and Tarlys and Beesburys . . .), which do go back for generations -- first with the Gardeners, then with the Tyrells. This is the secret sauce in the Reach's hegemony. Have you ever wondered by the riverlands was the scene of conflict and turmoil over the eons while the Reach went relatively unscathed? The Reach offers virtually nothing in the way of natural defenses: just hectare upon hectare of gently rolling farmland and wide open plains, with only one significant river to contend with. The only thing the Reach has going for it is its population; it can easily double, or even triple, the army of any potential invader. This means it took two or even three kingdoms to beat them. But this is only true if there is political stability among the principal houses in the Reach so they can all come together for their collective defense -- and the best way to maintain that stability is through marriage. It's telling that the only time Highgarden has ever fallen is when the Gardener king at the time made a series of unwise marriages that led to conflict between his banners and the Reach was invaded simultaneously by Dorne, the westerlands and the stormlands.

The bonds between all the Reach houses is rock solid, and making one of them a queen is not going to shatter generations of marital ties, even if the Hightowers did have an available daughter, which is uncertain.

Quote

Tywin got late to the party so he can't complain,  in fact Robert handing over Stannis would've been just as rich.

Lol, late is better than non-existent, and everyone in the field knows why Tywin could not defy Aerys openly until the very last moment. And frankly, the rebel lords would have been very suspicious if he had showed up at the Trident promising fealty to their cause.

Meanwhile, the Tyrells remained loyalists even after their king was dead. As I said, when you defeat your enemy and he bends the knee, you raise them up again -- minus some lands and gold. You don't give them a place of high honor in your new dynasty over the house that basically handed you your victory.

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Since is less likely than Casterly Rock may join the dragons, after what they pulled and expect get out unscathed, Robert needs to start winning over those houses whose alligiance he doesn't have.

Nobody is talking about joining the dragons. It's about establishing the new dynasty on a firm footing, and trading the support of Casterly Rock for the iffy prospect of support from the Hightowers puts the crown on very shaky ground. Remember, the Hightower's power comes mainly through wealth and trade, not fighting men. They have Oldtown and some of the surrounding area, but that's it. They have also proven themselves to be an unreliable ally in the past because of their reliance on trade and their close ties to the faith. If you'll recall, the Hightowers did have a Queen of the 7K once and that did not prevent them from defying her king and supporting his challenger.

Losing Casterly Rock upsets the power balance in the realm that clearly favors Robert at this point. He would be a fool to alienate the Lannisters to try and win the Hightowers, and Jon Arryn knows this.

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You may want to have that discussion with him, because Tywin makes clear that all he wants is be on the winning side, nothing else nothing more, you're basically making a claim Tywin never does, quite the opposite actually, and starting your argument from there.

When Tywin makes his move,  Lyanna is still alive and Robert's intention of taking her back were well known, Tywin didn't have a marriage match with Robert in mind.

And yet had Lyanna ever lived, Tywin would've gotten nothing.

No, no, no, you're looking at this all wrong. You have to step out of your 21st Century mindset and see this not just through Tywin's eyes but those of a feudal, patriarchal society.

Even if this kidnap/rape story is true (and Tywin is probably certain it is not), even if Lyanna was beaten senseless, dragged off by the hair and remained comatose throughout the entire ordeal, her honor and virtue have been utterly shattered, making her ineligible to be queen consort in the eyes of the court. This is the same mentality that Queen Alysanne encountered in the north when listening to the tales of first night. Through no fault of their own, and completely against their will, these women were raped by their lords. Did their husbands and fathers forgive them and understand it was not their fault? Perhaps, but that still did not stop them from casting them out into the cold where they had no choice by to sell their bodies to survive. It's not right, it's not fair, but this how it was in feudal times, and how it remains in large parts of the world to this day.

So long before Tywin marches on King's Landing, he knows that Lyanna is no longer in play. She'll be lucky to get any husband, let alone the King of the Seven Kingdoms.

Of course Tywin wants to be on the winning side. Why would he want anything else? But he is also one of the most careful, crafty, strategic thinkers in the book. Do you honestly think he only wants to win and never gives a thought as to how he is going to leverage this to his advantage in the post-war peace? Or that he has the only viable daughter for Robert among all the rebel houses?

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6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

He might be able to in theory, but one marriage is not going to alter the bonds between Oldtown and Highgarden (and Redwynes and Fossoways and Tarlys and Beesburys . . .), which do go back for generations -- first with the Gardeners, then with the Tyrells. This is the secret sauce in the Reach's hegemony. Have you ever wondered by the riverlands was the scene of conflict and turmoil over the eons while the Reach went relatively unscathed? The Reach offers virtually nothing in the way of natural defenses: just hectare upon hectare of gently rolling farmland and wide open plains, with only one significant river to contend with. The only thing the Reach has going for it is its population; it can easily double, or even triple, the army of any potential invader. This means it took two or even three kingdoms to beat them. But this is only true if there is political stability among the principal houses in the Reach so they can all come together for their collective defense -- and the best way to maintain that stability is through marriage. It's telling that the only time Highgarden has ever fallen is when the Gardener king at the time made a series of unwise marriages that led to conflict between his banners and the Reach was invaded simultaneously by Dorne, the westerlands and the stormlands.

The bonds between all the Reach houses is rock solid, and making one of them a queen is not going to shatter generations of marital ties, even if the Hightowers did have an available daughter, which is uncertain.

The Gardeners were able to keep their hegemony because theur were able to instal themselves as the royal house and use a cool mythos to help them, just like the Durrandons, the Starks, the Arryns and the Lannisters. They subdued their rivals and planted in them the idea that they were their royal House,  that's the same reason why  the Targs didn't lose the Throne after the dragons die, they were the royal  house. The Tyrell do have to find support in those marriages however but loyalties and alligiances change with every generation.

The bonds between the Reach houses are as breakable as the bonds between the Robert, Jon Arryn and Ned's kids,  just as the bond between Steffon, Tywin and Aerys didn't last or suvive them nor did past to their kids and Hightower did have an available daughter.

 

 

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, late is better than non-existent, and everyone in the field knows why Tywin could not defy Aerys openly until the very last moment. And frankly, the rebel lords would have been very suspicious if he had showed up at the Trident promising fealty to their cause.

Meanwhile, the Tyrells remained loyalists even after their king was dead. As I said, when you defeat your enemy and he bends the knee, you raise them up again -- minus some lands and gold. You don't give them a place of high honor in your new dynasty over the house that basically handed you your victory.

Is it?? Is probably that you can trust more the one that doesn't show up than the one who only comes for interest. Why the rebel lords would've been suspicious?? According to Ned, the rebels tried to reach out Tywin through all the war.

 

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Nobody is talking about joining the dragons. It's about establishing the new dynasty on a firm footing, and trading the support of Casterly Rock for the iffy prospect of support from the Hightowers puts the crown on very shaky ground. Remember, the Hightower's power comes mainly through wealth and trade, not fighting men. They have Oldtown and some of the surrounding area, but that's it. They have also proven themselves to be an unreliable ally in the past because of their reliance on trade and their close ties to the faith. If you'll recall, the Hightowers did have a Queen of the 7K once and that did not prevent them from defying her king and supporting his challenger.

Losing Casterly Rock upsets the power balance in the realm that clearly favors Robert at this point. He would be a fool to alienate the Lannisters to try and win the Hightowers, and Jon Arryn knows this.

The  Hightower power comes through trade and wealth and they not only have the most prosperous city in the  Realm but they have as bannermen, the Mullendores, the Beesburies etc, those are very important houses in the Reachh on their own.  They supported  the Mad King and Renly and had Robert marry one of their daughter him too.

The Hightower supported one of their own then so...

He's not losing Casterly Rock since Casterly Rock is supporting them without asking nothing in return, the only way the Lannisterswould be upset is if Tywin makes clear that he's only there in exchange of a royal marriage but Tywin was there to prove he was Robert's man, nothing else nothing more.

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No, no, no, you're looking at this all wrong. You have to step out of your 21st Century mindset and see this not just through Tywin's eyes but those of a feudal, patriarchal society.

Even if this kidnap/rape story is true (and Tywin is probably certain it is not), even if Lyanna was beaten senseless, dragged off by the hair and remained comatose throughout the entire ordeal, her honor and virtue have been utterly shattered, making her ineligible to be queen consort in the eyes of the court. This is the same mentality that Queen Alysanne encountered in the north when listening to the tales of first night. Through no fault of their own, and completely against their will, these women were raped by their lords. Did their husbands and fathers forgive them and understand it was not their fault? Perhaps, but that still did not stop them from casting them out into the cold where they had no choice by to sell their bodies to survive. It's not right, it's not fair, but this how it was in feudal times, and how it remains in large parts of the world to this day.

So long before Tywin marches on King's Landing, he knows that Lyanna is no longer in play. She'll be lucky to get any husband, let alone the King of the Seven Kingdoms.

Of course Tywin wants to be on the winning side. Why would he want anything else? But he is also one of the most careful, crafty, strategic thinkers in the book. Do you honestly think he only wants to win and never gives a thought as to how he is going to leverage this to his advantage in the post-war peace? Or that he has the only viable daughter for Robert among all the rebel houses?

I'm not looking this from a 21st Century, I'm looking this from the book perspective.



 

Quote

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride.

"Come south with me, and I'll teach you how to laugh again," the king promised. "You helped me win this damnable throne, now help me hold it. We were meant to rule together. If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done."

"Drink and stay quiet, the king is talking. I swear to you, I was never so alive as when I was winning this throne, or so dead as now that I've won it. And Cersei … I have Jon Arryn to thank for her. I had no wish to marry after Lyanna was taken from me, but Jon said the realm needed an heir. Cersei Lannister would be a good match, he told me, she would bind Lord Tywin to me should Viserys Targaryen ever try to win back his father's throne," The king shook his head. "I loved that old man, I swear it, but now I think he was a bigger fool than Moon Boy. Oh, Cersei is lovely to look at, truly, but cold … the way she guards her cunt, you'd think she had all the gold of Casterly Rock between her legs. Here, give me that beer if you won't drink it." He took the horn, upended it, belched, wiped his mouth. "I am sorry for your girl, Ned. Truly. About the wolf, I mean. My son was lying, I'd stake my soul on it. My son … you love your children, don't you?"
"With all my heart," Ned said.

"I was always strong … no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can't hit them?" Confused, the king shook his head. "Rhaegar … Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her." The king drained his cup.

How could they have all been so blind? The truth was there in front of them all the time, written on the children's faces. Ned felt sick. "I remember Robert as he was the day he took the throne, every inch a king," he said quietly. "A thousand other women might have loved him with all their hearts. What did he do to make you hate him so?"
Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. "The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna."
Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. "I do not know which of you I pity most."

"The maid's a fair one," Osha said.
"Robert was betrothed to marry her, but Prince Rhaegar carried her off and raped her," Bran explained. "Robert fought a war to win her back. He killed Rhaegar on the Trident with his hammer, but Lyanna died and he never got her back at all."
"A sad tale," said Osha, "but those empty holes are sadder."

 

It does not matter what the court or the Realm thinks, it does not matter what Tywin thinks, nor old Jon.  Those who had final say of whther the bethrothal was going to happen or not were Ned, as new Lord of Winterfell and thus the one taking the decisions in the name of the Starks and Robert. None of them gave no fucks about what others might say, they were set up to marry her to Robert. Usually you'd be right, Lyanna's situation would be a no no for any lord but Robert didn't care about that.

And as long as Robert wanted to marry her, Lyanna was going to marry the King of Westeros, Robert ever gave a sign that he was bothered with the rape thing, so no, when Tywin marched on KL, he knew that Robert was set on marrying Lyanna and nothing more. There is a reason why Robert is only talked into marry Cersei after Lyanna's death, either Jon Arryn wanted Robert to marry Lyanna or Jon Arryn knew that Robert was not going to listen other option that wasn't Lyanna, in either cases... Lyanna.

 

I think of Tywin as Walder but luckier,  for better or for worse, he ofc wanted to take advantage of being in the winning side and no doubt would offer Cersei to both Robert or Stannis but at the time he only wanted to be on the winning side.

 

Btw: How can Tywin be certain that there was a kidnapoing?? Tywin know less about Lyanna than the readers, and  we know little, Tywin doesn't know Lyanna at all. How can be certain  that she went willingly??

Edited by frenin

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 The bonds between all the Reach houses is rock solid, and making one of them a queen is not going to shatter generations of marital ties, even if the Hightowers did have an available daughter, which is uncertain.

Not really, the much less inspiring Stannis was able to take the lion share of Mace cavalry without much effort after Renly's death despite the fact that Loras and Tarly being present during the event.

The Tyrells diferent from the Arryns, Starks, Lannisters and Martell were not kings and are seem with contempt and even their claim to Highgarden is shaky and contested by their vassals.

The Hightowers also had at the very least two single daughters.

 

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The richest man & former hand of the king who controlled one of the largest militaries had a daughter of an appropriate age. Cersei was the best fit from all of the external POVs.

 

With that said, the question pertains to alternatives. The only names we know of and who are of an appropriate age after the sack would be Selyse and Ariannne (with possible Hightowers). I am sure there were other eligible single females, but none with the same value and prestige as a Lannister of the Rock. The Hightowers would be a fairly distant second and anyone else (including Selyse) would be way down the list.

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21 hours ago, frenin said:

The Gardeners were able to keep their hegemony because theur were able to instal themselves as the royal house and use a cool mythos to help them, just like the Durrandons, the Starks, the Arryns and the Lannisters. They subdued their rivals and planted in them the idea that they were their royal House,  that's the same reason why  the Targs didn't lose the Throne after the dragons die, they were the royal  house. The Tyrell do have to find support in those marriages however but loyalties and alligiances change with every generation.

The bonds between the Reach houses are as breakable as the bonds between the Robert, Jon Arryn and Ned's kids,  just as the bond between Steffon, Tywin and Aerys didn't last or suvive them nor did past to their kids and Hightower did have an available daughter.

The  Hightower power comes through trade and wealth and they not only have the most prosperous city in the  Realm but they have as bannermen, the Mullendores, the Beesburies etc, those are very important houses in the Reachh on their own.  They supported  the Mad King and Renly and had Robert marry one of their daughter him too.

The Hightower supported one of their own then so...

Um, no. I'm sure the Gardeners did conquer other houses to make them vassals, but when it came to the Hightowers it was done through marriage. And even the Redwynes were added peacefully when the Gardener king also became Lord of the Reach by blood. From then on, it was marital ties that kept the Reach together (except at the times when these bonds were frayed), and this is pretty much the way all the other kingdoms did it. The difference with the Reach is that their bonds allowed them to maintain their chief defense against invasion -- their collective army -- while other kingdoms still had something in the way of natural defenses to afford some protection.

Of course bonds are breakable, but when they are renewed generation after generation until virtually everyone is someone's aunt, uncle, cousin etc., it becomes very difficult, particularly with just one marriage.

Yes, as I said, the Hightowers have holdings in and around Oldtown, and those holding are managed by lesser lords, mostly situated around the Whispering Sound. This makes the Hightowers a powerful house, but it pales in comparison to the wealth they derive from trade and commerce, and it is nowhere near the might of Highgarden. It is also very doubtful that some, or any, of their sworn lords would openly defy their overlord if push came to shove, particularly since they would all be vulnerable to attack by the Redwyne fleet long before King Robert and his Hightower bride could get there.

The Hightowers supported the Mad King and Renly because Highgarden supported them. Robert married a Lannister, not a Hightower, and Robert's daughter married a Martell, so I don't know what you mean by that last part. The last time the Hightowers had a queen on the Iron Throne, they defied the king anyway.

 

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He's not losing Casterly Rock since Casterly Rock is supporting them without asking nothing in return, the only way the Lannisterswould be upset is if Tywin makes clear that he's only there in exchange of a royal marriage but Tywin was there to prove he was Robert's man, nothing else nothing more.

Tywin Lannister does nothing without expecting something in return. Tywin had every expectation that Lyanna, if she was even still alive at this point, would not be queen and that his daughter was the only viable queen. You honestly think that he sacked King's Landing, putting the very life of his favorite son at grave risk, and then murdered two royal children and presented them to Robert in open court for all to see, out of the goodness of his heart? Just to humble himself before the new king? Nonsense. Tywin knew he had the upper hand: he had the only viable queen and he had a significant army at his back to press her claim. If he wanted nothing in return, he could have just stayed home and bent the knee to whomever won -- it would have gotten him the same result.

 

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Is it?? Is probably that you can trust more the one that doesn't show up than the one who only comes for interest. Why the rebel lords would've been suspicious?? According to Ned, the rebels tried to reach out Tywin through all the war.

Lol, well if they trust Tywin less than they trust Mace, then that's all the more reason to marry the Lannisters to the Iron Throne not the Hightowers. Everybody reached out to Tywin to find out his intentions, but Tywin remained silent the entire time.

Why would the rebels have been suspicious? Are you serious? Tywin, Aerys' lifelong friend and Hand for 20 years, only recently estranged? Tywin, whose son is a captive of the Mad King and would be executed at the first sign of treason? Tywin, who was very likely conspiring with Rhaegar to put him on the throne? He shows up moments before the battle and offers to, what, lead the van? Guard the baggage train? And if he suddenly turned and attacked the rebels at the first charge, the battle would have been a rout and all the rebel leaders' heads would have rotted on spikes at the Red Keep for months while Aerys and then Rhaegar would have enjoyed the fruits of their long and glorious reigns.

 

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I'm not looking this from a 21st Century, I'm looking this from the book perspective.

It does not matter what the court or the Realm thinks, it does not matter what Tywin thinks, nor old Jon.  Those who had final say of whther the bethrothal was going to happen or not were Ned, as new Lord of Winterfell and thus the one taking the decisions in the name of the Starks and Robert. None of them gave no fucks about what others might say, they were set up to marry her to Robert. Usually you'd be right, Lyanna's situation would be a no no for any lord but Robert didn't care about that.

And as long as Robert wanted to marry her, Lyanna was going to marry the King of Westeros, Robert ever gave a sign that he was bothered with the rape thing, so no, when Tywin marched on KL, he knew that Robert was set on marrying Lyanna and nothing more. There is a reason why Robert is only talked into marry Cersei after Lyanna's death, either Jon Arryn wanted Robert to marry Lyanna or Jon Arryn knew that Robert was not going to listen other option that wasn't Lyanna, in either cases... Lyanna.

No, you're not. The book perspective is perfectly clear: raped women are soiled and are therefore unfit to be brides, let alone queens. Of course Robert has dreams of how all so perfect it would have been if Lyanna had lived and she became his queen, but this was not going to happen -- or if it did, Robert would not be king and Lyanna would not be queen.

It matters a great deal what the court thinks, let alone the faith. The court is made up of the lords who raised you to king in the first place, they could easily bring you down if they think you are unfit, morally or otherwise. Trying to make Lyanna his queen would launch the infant dynasty into a hornet's nest of political controversy, and Ned, Jon and everyone else would see that immediately. Lyanna would be sent back to Winterfell and if she is lucky married off to some minor lord who can keep her safe and maybe father an heir on her. Barring that, she would remain a spinster at Winterfell for the rest of her life. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is the way things are in this world.

 

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Btw: How can Tywin be certain that there was a kidnapoing?? Tywin know less about Lyanna than the readers, and  we know little, Tywin doesn't know Lyanna at all. How can be certain  that she went willingly??

Lol, you're killin' me, Smalls. In the first place, Tywin may not know Lyanna except by reputation, but he does know Rhaegar. So right off the bat we have every reason to think that Tywin does not believe this kidnap/rape story at all. That means Lyanna must have willingly run off with Rhaegar, which would make her even less suitable as Robert's consort -- as if Robert would even have her once he learned the truth.

Of course, she could always lie about it in the end, but that means she would have to come up with a long convoluted lie about how she was taken and where, how she made it to the tower, where did they stop along the way, did anyone see them . . . And if any of the kingsguard happened to survive as well, he would have to confirm all of this in exact detail.

So the example I offer above -- that Lyanna is ineligible even if she is the victim here -- is only the most extreme, unlikely, scenario in Tywin's mind. The more likely outcome is that the whole story of her disappearance will come out and it will utterly shatter any chance of her being queen -- particularly if it also comes out that she has just born a child. 

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20 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Not really, the much less inspiring Stannis was able to take the lion share of Mace cavalry without much effort after Renly's death despite the fact that Loras and Tarly being present during the event.

The Tyrells diferent from the Arryns, Starks, Lannisters and Martell were not kings and are seem with contempt and even their claim to Highgarden is shaky and contested by their vassals.

The Hightowers also had at the very least two single daughters.

 

True. The most significant defections were the Florents (who have no love for the Tyrells anyway) and the Fossoways. But the dominant houses remained: Tarly, Rowan, and Hightower and Redwyne. So "rock solid" only extends so deep into to the noble hierarchy. Between the Tyrells, Redwynes and Hightowers, however, it is certainly solid enough that a deeply integrated house like the Hightowers is not going to cast aside three hundred years of inter-marriage (and thousands of years to the former dynasty) just because Robert takes one as his queen.

And it is precisely because the Tyrells were so recently upjumped that they would have made it a priority to integrate themselves into the principal houses so aggressively.

Did they? I tried to puzzle it out but I couldn't find anything solid. There's no record of a husband for Malora, but would she be a prospect considering she later became the Mad Maid? And it is likely that she is several years older than Robert, which is not a deal-breaker, but not ideal either. Lynesse would have been too young, barely 11 or 12. Alerie was already married to Mace considering Willas was born no later than 276. That leaves Leyla and Alysanne, who both married their husbands at indeterminate times. 

So now we have Alerie who was born between 257 and 264 and Lynesse who was born (by rough estimate, admittedly) in 271 or 272. That means Rhea (Florent) Hightower birthed seven of her 10 children in a span of 15 years at the longest. With Leyla coming right after Alerie, I think it more than likely that she would have been married by 283, so that leaves Alyssane who, again, may or may not have been married at this point as well, or she might only be a year or two older than Lynesse, which maybe would have made her barely eligible if there was no other choice, which there is.

So all in all, I think it's just as likely as not that the Hightowers had no credible bride to offer

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Um, no. I'm sure the Gardeners did conquer other houses to make them vassals, but when it came to the Hightowers it was done through marriage. And even the Redwynes were added peacefully when the Gardener king also became Lord of the Reach by blood. From then on, it was marital ties that kept the Reach together (except at the times when these bonds were frayed), and this is pretty much the way all the other kingdoms did it. The difference with the Reach is that their bonds allowed them to maintain their chief defense against invasion -- their collective army -- while other kingdoms still had something in the way of natural defenses to afford some protection.

Of course bonds are breakable, but when they are renewed generation after generation until virtually everyone is someone's aunt, uncle, cousin etc., it becomes very difficult, particularly with just one marriage.

Yes, as I said, the Hightowers have holdings in and around Oldtown, and those holding are managed by lesser lords, mostly situated around the Whispering Sound. This makes the Hightowers a powerful house, but it pales in comparison to the wealth they derive from trade and commerce, and it is nowhere near the might of Highgarden. It is also very doubtful that some, or any, of their sworn lords would openly defy their overlord if push came to shove, particularly since they would all be vulnerable to attack by the Redwyne fleet long before King Robert and his Hightower bride could get there.

The Hightowers supported the Mad King and Renly because Highgarden supported them. Robert married a Lannister, not a Hightower, and Robert's daughter married a Martell, so I don't know what you mean by that last part. The last time the Hightowers had a queen on the Iron Throne, they defied the king anyway.

Marital ties kept all the Kingdoms together but those marital ties are still easily broken even if they are renewed generation after generation, the Justmans ruled the Riverlands just fine too..

 

But those aren't only lesser lords, Mullendore, Beesbury and co are all powerful lords and nowhere it's said that Hightower can beat Highgarden but that Hightower is powerful enough to give Highgarden pause, if Hightower sides with the crown,kt's very doubtful that many actually side with their overlord.

 

The Hightowers support their own, they supported both the Mad King and Renly because Mace is married to them, they supportetd Aegon 2 because the man was their cousin and they would support Robert because he's married to them.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Tywin Lannister does nothing without expecting something in return. Tywin had every expectation that Lyanna, if she was even still alive at this point, would not be queen and that his daughter was the only viable queen. You honestly think that he sacked King's Landing, putting the very life of his favorite son at grave risk, and then murdered two royal children and presented them to Robert in open court for all to see, out of the goodness of his heart? Just to humble himself before the new king? Nonsense. Tywin knew he had the upper hand: he had the only viable queen and he had a significant army at his back to press her claim. If he wanted nothing in return, he could have just stayed home and bent the knee to whomever won -- it would have gotten him the same result.

 

 No one says that Tywin does anything without expecting something in return but Tywin didn't sack KL with a marriage pact in mind, that simply doesn't come out of his mouth, he himself says that he did what he did to prove himself to Robert,  Tywin had every expectation that Lyanna if she was alive would be Queen because that was Robert's mind was at.

Tywin didn't have the upper hand, he had burned every bridge he had with the Targs and his fav son was in Robert's hands, he had a significant army to press his claim but in KL Robert's would likely be bigger. If he wanted a marriage in return he could've stayed home and demand old Jon to meet his expectations... instead of humbling himself before the new king.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, well if they trust Tywin less than they trust Mace, then that's all the more reason to marry the Lannisters to the Iron Throne not the Hightowers. Everybody reached out to Tywin to find out his intentions, but Tywin remained silent the entire time.

 

That's actually a very good point.

 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

 Why would the rebels have been suspicious? Are you serious? Tywin, Aerys' lifelong friend and Hand for 20 years, only recently estranged? Tywin, whose son is a captive of the Mad King and would be executed at the first sign of treason? Tywin, who was very likely conspiring with Rhaegar to put him on the throne? He shows up moments before the battle and offers to, what, lead the van? Guard the baggage train? And if he suddenly turned and attacked the rebels at the first charge, the battle would have been a rout and all the rebel leaders' heads would have rotted on spikes at the Red Keep for months while Aerys and then Rhaegar would have enjoyed the fruits of their long and glorious reigns.

 

  1.  Tywin and Aerys had been "estranged" by more than a decade by then and the KG affair is a last insult that can easily everyone over.
  2. I'm sure than the rebels would've given Tywin whatever he wanted for his help before the Trident, rich enough to grieve with dignity.
  3. Was he?? If he was anyway, are te rebels aware of that??

If you don't trust him, the more securething is to ask him to charge first, sure if Tywin had betrayed the rebels the loyalist would've won, if not the rebels would crushed them.

 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

No, you're not. The book perspective is perfectly clear: raped women are soiled and are therefore unfit to be brides, let alone queens. Of course Robert has dreams of how all so perfect it would have been if Lyanna had lived and she became his queen, but this was not going to happen -- or if it did, Robert would not be king and Lyanna would not be queen.

 

You're not, you're acting as if there is no exceptions in this worlds or no buts, as if saying, it's medieval world automatically means that nothing can change and not exceptions can be made and that's just ludicrous.

Raped woman are solied and therefore unfitto be bride as long the bethrothed decides they are, sure solied women are frowned upon but that's not to say they can't marry but that people usually don't want to marry them,  if Robert wants to marry her, he's marrying her, there is no one stopping him from doing it and yes ofc Robert would be King and Lyanna would be queen.

 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

 It matters a great deal what the court thinks, let alone the faith. The court is made up of the lords who raised you to king in the first place, they could easily bring you down if they think you are unfit, morally or otherwise. Trying to make Lyanna his queen would launch the infant dynasty into a hornet's nest of political controversy, and Ned, Jon and everyone else would see that immediately. Lyanna would be sent back to Winterfell and if she is lucky married off to some minor lord who can keep her safe and maybe father an heir on her. Barring that, she would remain a spinster at Winterfell for the rest of her life. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is the way things are in this world.

 

When the war started Robert was set on marrying Lyanna, when the Trident happened and the rebels hailed him as King, they all knew Robert was set on marrying Lyanna, so there is no reason to assume that they cared about Robert marrying Lyanna, if not Robert wouldn't have been made pretender, they all would've seen that his stubborness would be a problem lately. As i said, there is a reason why Robert is only talked about the Cersei match, after Lyanna's death. The Faith's been a puppet for a hundred years now, umlikely they say much and what would they say btw??

And don't worry, that's what propaganda is for, if Jaeharys could  make Westeros accept the incest with Seven preachers, there is no problem for Lyanna.

 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, you're killin' me, Smalls. In the first place, Tywin may not know Lyanna except by reputation, but he does know Rhaegar. So right off the bat we have every reason to think that Tywin does not believe this kidnap/rape story at all. That means Lyanna must have willingly run off with Rhaegar, which would make her even less suitable as Robert's consort -- as if Robert would even have her once he learned the truth.

Of course, she could always lie about it in the end, but that means she would have to come up with a long convoluted lie about how she was taken and where, how she made it to the tower, where did they stop along the way, did anyone see them . . . And if any of the kingsguard happened to survive as well, he would have to confirm all of this in exact detail.

So the example I offer above -- that Lyanna is ineligible even if she is the victim here -- is only the most extreme, unlikely, scenario in Tywin's mind. The more likely outcome is that the whole story of her disappearance will come out and it will utterly shatter any chance of her being queen -- particularly if it also comes out that she has just born a child. 

Tywin knows Rhaegar and does Tywin know what Rhaegar would do if he ever fall in love for someon he wouldn't do?? Or does Tywin agree that Rhaegar thinks that the dragon answers to no one?? Is incredible harsh to make this kind of guesses whn Tywin has never muttered Rhaegar's name in the saga.

 

No need to convulte story at all, she was taken near Harrenhall and abused in Dorno, not like Robert would want to hear everything, or would even care. The kidnapping scenario or anything else only comes out if Lyanna says so, btw since all parties agree that Lyanna was kidnapped, so i doubt it was a lie that part. 

 

 

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