Bernie Mac Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 Just now, frenin said: Tywin gives his reasons for the Sack and his concerns, Cersei was not among any of them, Why would they have to be? Are you really saying that Tywin at no point thought of the advantage it would be to have his daughter marry the next King of Westeros? That it did not cross his mind till Arryn/Robert suggested it to him? How many posts on this forum and on reddit have you talked about Tywin's ambition? Just now, frenin said: so unless we're give new info that either contradicts this or adds new juice, we can't say that Tywin sacked KL with the intention of getting Robert's hand. I've not said that was his sole intention. Please don't create arguments others have not made. Either you can't read or you argue in bad faith, please improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 On 12/24/2019 at 3:50 AM, frenin said: Why?? Tywin sacked KL with no intention of getting a royal marriage, only to prove himself a rebel, you're giving him a motivation he himself didn't have. We don't know that. This is what annoys me about you. You make an absolute declaration, one that we the reader have no idea about, and rather than accept that you might be wrong, that you might have exaggerated your point, you just try to strawman your way out of it by inventing arguments that have never been made. Tywin's primary goal for attacking Kings Landing was not to marry Cersei to Robert, but it is more than possible that it was on his mind, that a man like Tywin was thinking of the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: Why would they have to be? Are you really saying that Tywin at no point thought of the advantage it would be to have his daughter marry the next King of Westeros? That it did not cross his mind till Arryn/Robert suggested it to him? How many posts on this forum and on reddit have you talked about Tywin's ambition? No, i'm saying that Tywin did not sack KL with Cersei in mind. I'm not arguing what he might have think after, but saying that Tywin sacked KL for the purpose of marrying Cersei to Robert is wrong. I very much believe that Tywin was the one suggesting the match, i don't believe he had in mind at the time of the sack. 15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: I've not said that was his sole intention. Please don't create arguments others have not made. Either you can't read or you argue in bad faith, please improve. Speaking of bad faith, neither i said that. 10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: We don't know that. This is what annoys me about you. You make an absolute declaration, one that we the reader have no idea about, and rather than accept that you might be wrong, that you might have exaggerated your point, you just try to strawman your way out of it by inventing arguments that have never been made. Tywin's primary goal for attacking Kings Landing was not to marry Cersei to Robert, but it is more than possible that it was on his mind, that a man like Tywin was thinking of the future. I will repeat myself here. Quote Tywin gives his reasons for the Sack and his concerns, Cersei was not among any of them, so unless we're give new info that either contradicts this or adds new juice, we can't say that Tywin sacked KL with the intention of getting Robert's hand. The moment we're told that Cersei was among his goals, i'll agree with you, i don't have a problem with that, but since is Tywin himself giving us the info, there is no reason to believe he might be hiding stuff. Edit: You're right, my bad, maybe i did exaggerate, maybe Tywin thought that if all went great, as it happened, as a bonus he could start entertaining Robert with Cersei, given Lyanna soilement and all, but i doubt that he gave it more than two thoughts given how apparently in love was Robert and how close Ned and Robert were at the time. or i don't buy for a second that for him was a marry Cersei or else. Which was the point of the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 34 minutes ago, frenin said: No, i'm saying that Tywin did not sack KL with Cersei in mind. We don't know that. We have no idea if Tywin considered that part of getting into Robert's good graces would result in a royal marriage. 34 minutes ago, frenin said: I'm not arguing what he might have think after, He may have thought about it before, we simply don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 17 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: We don't know that. We have no idea if Tywin considered that part of getting into Robert's good graces would result in a royal marriage. He may have thought about it before, we simply don't know. Except again for his own words?? Where he doesn't ever hint Cersei?? I don't know if that was old Jon's reasoning, since Tywin simply seemed the better option for him, whether or not he was in good grace with Robert or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 6 minutes ago, frenin said: Except again for his own words?? When does he say "These are the only reasons"? Where is it claimed that the idea of his daughter marrying Robert only came to him after Kings Landing? Quote Where he doesn't ever hint Cersei?? And? Is Tywin an ambitious man who wanted his daughter to marry the very best? Is it that far-fetched to think that he considered that Robert might consider it after he took the capital for him? I'm not claiming anything as fact, I am just pointing out that we don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 12 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: When does he say "These are the only reasons"? Where is it claimed that the idea of his daughter marrying Robert only came to him after Kings Landing? And? Is Tywin an ambitious man who wanted his daughter to marry the very best? Is it that far-fetched to think that he considered that Robert might consider it after he took the capital for him? I'm not claiming anything as fact, I am just pointing out that we don't know. Where it is claimed that he had other reasons?? Tywin is the one giving his reasons to do what he did and act like he acted, why are we to believe that at that point he had other reasons if he himself don't put them forward?? Again, I'm not saying that he never had that considered, I'm saying that Cersei was not the reason why he sacked KL. Might he after seen Robert's and Ned's fallout thought about it?? Likely, when presenting the bodies and saw Robert called them dragonspawn, likely, after the Sack in general, i can bet my life on it. Was it the reason for why he sacked the City?? No, his intention was to prove himself a rebel. But, as i said before, you might be right and he thought about it, it just wasn't one of his top priorities it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 20 minutes ago, frenin said: Where it is claimed that he had other reasons?? You did not answer my questions. I will answer yours after you have done mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said: You did not answer my questions. I will answer yours after you have done mine. No i'm done, quote me Tywin saying something similar and we'll talk, if not and giving that is Tywin's own mouth giving us his reasons, there isn't much to talk about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted January 16, 2020 Share Posted January 16, 2020 31 minutes ago, frenin said: No i'm done, quote me Tywin saying something similar and we'll talk, if not and giving that is Tywin's own mouth giving us his reasons, there isn't much to talk about. His only reasons? When did he say this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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