Frey family reunion Posted December 24, 2019 Share Posted December 24, 2019 Lem Lemoncloak is an interesting character. On the one hand there may not be anything overly significant about him. But for some reason when you read chapters he appears in, you come away feeling that there may be more to him than first meets the eye. I’ve heard the theory that he could be Richard Lonmouth, one of Rhaegar’s former squires. And there is a lot to like about that theory. The one thing that struck me a bit off though is how rough around the edges Lem is. Maybe a little too rough around the edges to be a high born lord who squired for Rhaegar. One other theory occurred to me grew from where A Feast of Crows and A Dance with Dragons left off with the potential conflict that appears to be looming between the new inhabitants of Castle Darry and the Brotherhood without Banners. But it all starts back in A Clash of Kings: Quote A more significant lordship by far was granted to Ser Lancel Lannister. Joffrey awarded him the lands, castle, and rights of House Darry, whose last child lord had perished during the fightings in the Riverlands, “leaving no true born heirs of lawful Darry blood, but only a bastard cousin.” GRRM seems to enjoy setting up parallels scenarios occurring in different locales in his story. So here we have a house, who’s lawful heirs (or at least male heirs) are seemingly killed off in the war. An outsider than takes up rule in the house. But there being a known bastard claimant still in existence. Does this sound a bit familiar? We don’t get a real clear picture of the new dynamics of House Darry until Jaime’s chapters in AFFC and ADWD. This is where we meet Lancel’s new wife Amerei Lannister/Frey, but perhaps more interestingly if we are in fact going to see some similarities between House Darry and House Winterfell, Amerei’s mother Marina Frey/Darry: Quote “You must forgive my daughter,” said an older woman. Lady Amerei had brought a score of Freys to Darry with her; a sister, an uncle, a half uncle, various cousins ... and her mother, who had been born a Darry. “She still grieves for her father.” So here we have a Lady Mariya who may currently be a Frey by marriage (although we seems to have little grief over the death of her Frey husband, Merritt Frey) but it should not be forgotten that she grew up as a child of Darry castle. Now with her insipid daughter as the nominal lady of House Darry and with Lancel who seems far more interested in his newly found faith it seems fairly evident that the strong willed and sharp tongued Mariya may end up being the true Lady of Darry even if not in name. But of course there still exists a bastard born nephew of hers out there somewhere... If this bastard born cousin is going to have any significance than it is going to come from a conflict with the current inhabitants of House Darry, the Lannisters and the Freys and thus perhaps a conflict with Mariya, the daughter of House Darry. It’s pretty clear that the main conflict with House Darry is going to come from the Brotherhood without Banners. Quote The nearby town of Saltpans had been savagely raided by a band of outlaws, and some of the survivors claimed a roaring brute in a hound’s head helm was amongst the raiders. Supposedly he’d killed a dozen men and raped a girl of twelve. “No doubt Lancel will be eager to hunt down Cregan’s and Lord Beric both, to restore the king’s peace to the Riverlands.” Quote He turned back to Lady Mariya. “The outlaws who killed your husband ... was it Lord Beric’s band?” ”So we thought, at first.” Though Lady Mariya’s hair was streaked with grey, she was still a handsome woman... “The peasants denied seeing them, but when questioned sharply they sang a different song. They spoke of a one-eyed man and another who wore a yellow cloak ... and a woman, cloaked and hooded.” Quote “That was before he died,” said young Ser Atwood Frey. “Death changed him, the small folk say. You can kill him, but he won’t stay dead. How do you fight a man like that? And there’s the Hound as well. He slew twenty men at Saltpans.” Strongboard guffawed. “Twenty innkeeps, maybe. Twenty serving men pissing in their breeches. Twenty begging brothers armed with bowls. Not twenty knights. Not me.” Quote “Do not call it butchery,” Lady Mariya said softly. “That give insult to honest butchers everywhere. Saltpans was the work of some fell beast in human skin.” Quote “Evil work.” Strong boar filled his cup again. “Lady Mariya, Lady Amerei, your distress has moved me. You have my word, once Riverrun has fallen I shall return to hunt down the Hound and kill him for you. Dogs do not frighten me.” And last we hear from Strongboar, he aims to make good on his promise and leaves Riverrun to return to House Darry for a fight, specifically to look for the Hound. And we know who has taken on the mantle of the Hound: Quote Thoros sucked in his breath in dismay. “Is this true? A dead man’s helm? Have we fallen that low?” ”The big man scowled at him. “It’s good steel.” ”There is nothing good about that helm, nor the men who wore it,” said the red priest. “Sandor Clegan was a man in torment, and Rorge a beast in human skin.” ”I’m not them.” ”Then why show the world their face? Savage, snarling, twisted ... is that who you would be, Lem?” So the stage is set. Strongboar acting as the champion of Mariya, a daughter of Darry who has returned to bring the House back up from the ashes, even if it is with the help of the agents of its destruction, set to clash with the Hound, who is now Lem Lemoncloak wearing its head/helm. So wouldn’t it be that much sweeter, if it turns out that this conflict might also be setting up the daughter of Darry against the bastard of Darry? Now when we first meet Lem, we learn his name from Tom O’Seven Streams who claims that Lem’s name came from the yellow color of his cloak. But of course singers are known embellishes and liars. What if Lem’s name instead was merely an abbreviation of his actual name, what if Lem was short for Willem? If so this wouldn’t be the first time that someone associated with lemons, was called by the last syllable of his actual name. Quote She took the child by the hand. “Your Grace, I give you Ser Andrey Dalt, the heir to Lemonwood.” ”My friends call me Drey,” he said, “and I should be greatly honored if Your Grace would do the same.” Now you may ask, who cares if his first name is Willem, why does that suggest any connection to House Darry? Granted this is tenuous, but it’s fairly common that names are given to honor older, well respected members of the House, even if that name is given to the bastard of the House. Of course we know about Willem Darry, who is either an uncle or an older brother to the last surviving adult member of House Darry. And we know that at least one nephew of Ser Raymun Darry who was named Willem, perhaps after Willem Darry: Cleos Frey and Jeyne Darry’s son Willem Frey. So it wouldn’t be unheard of that one of Ser Raymun’s older brothers named their bastard son Willem after Willem Darry. And in turn this same son grew up being called by the abbreviation Lem. Perhaps his decision to take on a lemon yellow cloak was based on his nickname as opposed to the other way around. I’m running out of steam a bit, and it’s getting late, but there is a little more that I’ll add to this theory later. Let me know what you think, so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted December 25, 2019 Share Posted December 25, 2019 Good stuff! I dont think the answer lies in senior Willems, though, but in the name itself, Willem isnt a peasants name, only highborns have names like that. And we know you can be highborn but still on the wrong side of the blanket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted December 25, 2019 Share Posted December 25, 2019 Interesting take on the mystery of Lem Lemoncloak. I however still believe that he is Rhaegar's former squire Richard Lonsmouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted December 25, 2019 Share Posted December 25, 2019 7 hours ago, Sigella said: Good stuff! I dont think the answer lies in senior Willems, though, but in the name itself, Willem isnt a peasants name, only highborns have names like that. That is not true. Davos was born a peasant, yet we know that Davos is a noble name due to Davos Baratheon, son of Orys. In our own Middle Ages peasants and nobility could share the same first name, so unless actually stated in the books (which I'm pretty sure it has not been) we should take it for granted that there are thousands of peasants named after Kings and other noble people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Dacey Posted December 27, 2019 Share Posted December 27, 2019 That was an interesting read! Thank you for putting the time and effort to bring this theory to life in a concise and well written text. It's tenuous at best, but I would like it if it were true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share Posted January 2, 2020 Going back to the idea that Lem may be short for Willem. It's been widely pointed out that Beric and the Brotherhood without Banners was probably largely inspired by the tales of Robin Hood and his Merry Men. If you squint hard enough you can probably even associate which characters from the BWB are inspired from certain characters in the tales of Robin Hood. The character that is most easily associated with Lem Lemoncloack would probably be Will Scarlet. Both characters who's names and identity are tied into the color of their cloak or clothing worn in the stories. Will Scarlet gaining his name from his silken scarlet clothing he wore in the tales. While Will Scarlet is usually depicted as a former nobleman and nebulous relation to Robin, there was a cult favorite UK television show which aired in the 80's (during the same time frame that GRRM was writing for Hollywood) called Robin of Sherwood. In the show Will Scarlet is said to be a former soldier who's wife was killed by the Normans. Which would pair fairly well with what little we know of Lem Lemoncloak's background, that he was a soldier who's wife and daughter were killed. So it might be a bit of a wink and a nod to Will Scarlett (Will short for William Gamwell in some versions) if GRRM made an homage who adopted yellow instead of red and who went by the last part of his actual name rather than the first. So William turns to Will and Willem turns to Lem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted January 2, 2020 Author Share Posted January 2, 2020 On 12/25/2019 at 1:43 AM, Lord Wraith said: Interesting take on the mystery of Lem Lemoncloak. I however still believe that he is Rhaegar's former squire Richard Lonsmouth. There is a lot to like about that theory as well. My biggest problems with that theory is going from Lonsmouth's association with Rhaegar and then apparently staying in Westeros after the war, and then joining up with the Brotherhood without Banner. If Lonsmouth survived the war, he would have probably fled Westeros and went into exile like Connington. Yet somehow he has a wife and daughter who's deaths he seems to lay at the hands of the Lannisters. He is also portrayed as being fairly coarse, and associates himself with the commonfolk rather than with nobility. Lem being a bastard of the Darry's would organically fit the story a little easier. He's with the Brotherhood because he was probably one of the Darry soldiers that accompanied Raymun when they initially set off in search of Gregor. He survives the ambush which killed off Raymun and along with Beric, Thoros, and Anguy they become a part of the newly formed Brotherhood without Banners. If he blames the death of his wife and daughter on the Lannisters, than there is a good chance that they may have died when House Darry's lands were plundered and the castle taken for the Lannisters. And while we associate Jon as a bastard who is raised with nobility, that was probably the exception to the rule. Even acknowledged bastards usually were not raised in the castle as Jon was. So if Lem was the bastard son of one of Raymun's older brothers, he probably would have been raised as a soldier and would have grown up amongst the soldiers as opposed to the nobility. As for Lonsmouth, I do wonder if his main purpose is GRRM giving a bit of a wink and a nod to Geoffrey of Monmouth who's fictitious history of Britain (especially the books on Merlin and King Arthur) was probably a big inspiration to ASOIAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 This is quite good. A fresh take. I've always bought into the Lonmouth theory and never thought to look at other possibilities. Quote Lem, is that you? Still wearing the same ratty cloak, are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You're afraid all the piss will wash out and we'll see you're really a knight o' the Kingsguard! (ASoS, Arya V, Chap. 29) This hint from Tansy, the innkeeper at The Peach, could provide some support for the Darry connection. It could allude to Willem Darry's key role in the Kingsguard and to the story that he had to hide after taking the Targaryen children to Essos, disguising his Kingsguard affiliation. The so-called Pisswater Prince, the baby substituted for Rhaegar's infant Aegon, could also be part of the piss-dyed cloak symbolism. If you go to the Search of Ice and Fire website and search on the word "yellow" in Arya's Riverlands POVs, the color is usually associated with the House Clegane three-dog sigil or with Lem Lemoncloak. Lem eventually wears the Hound's helmet. Could Lem represent the third dog of the Clegane sigil? He hangs out with Harwin, who was the master of hounds at Winterfell. The association with the Cleganes puts Lem in proximity with the Kingsguard again as both Sandor and Gregor (as Robert Strong) are appointed to the Kingsguard. But there is another layer of symbolism that could attach to Lem Lemoncloak. The yellow cloak in Renly's Rainbow Guard was worn by Emmon Cuy. He attacks Brienne after Renly's death, having assumed that she murdered their king. She disarms him with Renly's sword, duels with him and then Catelyn hits Emmon on the head with a brazier, knocking him out long enough to allow her and Brienne to escape. Lem Lemoncloak later serves Lady Stoneheart when she becomes the leader of the BwB. Could the brazier on the head of the yellow guard be a Lord of Light symbolic baptism? Lem Lemoncloak also attacks Brienne, taking up the rope and pulling it taut when Lady Stoneheart orders that Brienne and her companions be hanged. Once again, however, it appears that Brienne escapes the wrath of the yellow guard as we see her appear in the Jaime POV at Pennytree. Ser Loras kills Emmon Cuy for failing to protect Renly, so we know that Lem Lemoncloak can't literally be Emmon Cuy in disguise. Unless there is some Thoros of Myr magic that revived Emmon Cuy as it did Ser Beric. Thanks for coming up with this! It will be interesting to look for more details the clarify Lem's purpose and identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLastWolf Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 Sorry reunion. I'm still with Lady Gwyn on this one. Lem is Richard Lonmouth. https://ladygwynhyfvar.com/2014/02/03/lemuncloaked-the-true-identity-of-lem-lemoncloak/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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