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Question about Cersei and Maggy's prophecy


LHakaLH

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9 hours ago, Vaith said:

Well, if you take David Peterson's High Valyrian rules

By no means this is canon. Where does he come up with this stuff? Part Latin?

 

I generally don't like the idea that any younger sibling of anyone can be Cersei's valonqar (like an Arya). That is probably (excuse my math) 50% of the entire Planetos population assuming everyone has 2 children. 3 children each parents would bump that up to 66% of the population.

Its either Tyrion, Jaime or Daenerys if Cersei is Aerys' bastard. You get a two for one if its Daenerys ... since she can be the valonqar AND the younger more beautiful queen.

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3 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

I was struck when you mentioned the ToJ fever-dream, and this is the bell that rang in my head:

 

 
I wonder if there's some reason the George used such similar sounding phrases relating to two different dreams about important past events? On one level it may be a hint that both dreams are true recollections of real events, or just that the two dreamers believe them to be accurate dreams. On the other hand the dreams both refer to events which subsequently shaped their respective dreamers' lives to a large degree: Ned and his promise; Cersei and her prophecy.
I certainly have no problem with the idea that Maggy had genuine powers of some sort, as the books make clear that blood magic is is a real force in this world. What does stretch belief is that a blood-mage ends up living like a circus freak, or doing 'turns' as a side-show at the tourney. Though she'd married into the Spicers, I guess they're still pretty much smallfolk at this stage, despite their wealth...
The other question re valonquar, is why use the Valyrian word? OK she came from Essos originally, maybe she did that immigrant grannie thing of not really learning the local language too well, but there again she might have a specific meaning that the Common Tongue doesn't really stretch to.... and as others have said before, 'the valonquar' does make me think it won't be anything as straightforward as simply one of Cersei's own younger brothers. I like the idea of Arya wearing one of their faces though...

Awesome catch with the TOJ wording!

Bold: I agree but this seems to be the case a lot in books, movies, etc. The powerful warlock or witch doesn't in themselves have a very powerful position. Bloodravens and Wicked Witches of the East and West are rare, Mels, Maggys and secluded woods witches are more the norm.

My guess about why Maggy used the Valyrian "valonqar" has a lot to do with how skilled she is with mind games. If Maggy was stoking Cersei's paranoia and vanity as it certainly appears (Robert will cheat on her, another woman will take her place, her family will take everything from her and eventually kill her), then Maggy needs Cersei to remember what she said over years. So she uses a mysterious and memorable word, one that sounds like Tyrion which is what Cersei wants to believe, but with enough mystery to plant the seed of doubt.

AFFC Cersei IX

"She?"

"The maegi." The words came tumbling out of her. She could still hear Melara Hetherspoon insisting that if they never spoke about the prophecies, they would not come true. She was not so silent in the well, though. She screamed and shouted. "Tyrion is the valonqar," she said. "Do you use that word in Myr? It's High Valyrian, it means little brother." She had asked Septa Saranella about the word, after Melara drowned.

Taena took her hand and stroked it. "This was a hateful woman, old and sick and ugly. You were young and beautiful, full of life and pride. She lived in Lannisport, you said, so she would have known of the dwarf and how he killed your lady mother. This creature dared not strike you, because of who you were, so she sought to wound you with her viper's tongue."

Could it be? Cersei wanted to believe it. "Melara died, though, just as she foretold. I never wed Prince Rhaegar. And Joffrey . . . the dwarf killed my son before my eyes."

"One son," said Lady Merryweather, "but you have another, sweet and strong, and no harm will ever come to him."

"Never, whilst I live." Saying it helped her believe that it was so. Dreams turn to dust in light of day, yes. Outside the morning sun was shining through a haze of cloud. Cersei slipped out from under the blankets. "I will break my fast with the king this morning. I want to see my son." All I do, I do for him.

 

What's really interesting here is that earlier, Cersei equates Taena with Melara in that she sees Taena as the closest friend that she's had since Melara, and like with Melara, Cersei's desire for friendship co-exists with deep contempt at the same time. And here we have Melara Taena going out of her way to convince Cersei to ignore what Maggy said which is curious.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Awesome catch with the TOJ wording!

Ah, shucks, you're too kind... :blush: 

It might have been truly awesome if I'd seen it on my first reading, but seven times through the series so far, and it only clicked when I read your post :cheers:

We'll have to amend the old saying: 'it takes a village to ... read a book'....

 

4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

What's really interesting here is that earlier, Cersei equates Taena with Melara in that she sees Taena as the closest friend that she's had since Melara, and like with Melara, Cersei's desire for friendship co-exists with deep contempt at the same time. And here we have Melara Taena going out of her way to convince Cersei to ignore what Maggy said which is curious.

That's a good point - it seems to be a bit dangerous being Cersei's bestie, doesn't it? I mean there's no way that Melara fell down the well, is there? And Taena 'the Myrish Swamp' lends a watery connection, just like melara's well.

 

And thinking a bit more about Maggy's isolation, it's possible George is hinting at some real-world issues. Whereas she really is a bloodmage (to some degree at least) and maybe shunned as much as she is needed, there is a long tradition of old - specifically post-menopausal, and usually single or widowed - women in our own history being derided as 'witches' so they can be persecuted and their property seized.

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On 12/31/2019 at 4:10 AM, The Map Guy said:

By no means this is canon. Where does he come up with this stuff? Part Latin?

Not Latin, it's a conlang. It's just him exploring how cross vs parallel cousins are differentiated in some languages. And how sometimes words for different types of relatives in different languages.

Was mostly joking about High Valyrian rules in response to that question as to whether valonqar is plural. I don't believe that Martin ever intended that valonqar could mean younger male parallel cousin when he wrote AFFC. ;)

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On 12/26/2019 at 10:04 PM, LHakaLH said:

 the prophecy does not necessarily say her children will predecease her,

It doesn't say so explicitely but does imply heavily - speaking about her children's funeral shrouds in one sentence and drowning in tears in the following is the connection.

 

As for the valonquar: I think the simplest answer, Jaime, is narratively the correct one. First, Cersei never ever takes him into consideration even though he qualifies. Second, their relationship is of such an intensity that it cannot end with the two just going their separate ways, it will require a confrontation, and most likely, some drastic end, for both of them, so that they leave the world together as they had entered it.

 

Not sure about the younger, more beautiful queen, who will take all Cersei holds dear. What does Cersei hold dear? Her power, her beauty, and Jaime. The dethroning part is rather explicit, the loss of beauty is on the way due to natural causes. If Jaime sides with Dany, like he did in the abomination, it would probably count as being taken from her. However, Radio Westeros also made a compelling case that the younger, more beautiful is actually Brienne, who is beautiful on the inside, and the prophecy doesn't say exactly that the woman will be a queen, after all, and that would really be taking Jaime from Cersei.

 

The choking: curiously, only just now did I remember a pretty good twist that Babylon 5 did on a vision of being choked, and I wonder if GRRM is familiar with it. - For those of you who don't know the show: there is a guy who had a vision of his death by choking by a particular person, so he hates and mistrusts the other guy. However, as the story proceeds, the two are forced to cooperate and even become friends, and the choking scene actually turns out to be suicide-by-friend as a deliverance from a mind-controlling alien. So, perhaps the valonquar's act which Cersei fears so much might actually be a gift of mercy that she will ask for, a final act of love from Jaime.

 

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My favorite theory has to be that her death will come from Tommen’s (the younger brother) Hands not hands.  So far Tommen has had three Hands: Harys Swift, Orton Merryweather, and Mace Tyrell.  And keep in mind, the one thing that Tommen loves to do is put his stamp on anything that you put in front of him.  It would be awfully easy for a combination of any of Tommen’s Hands to draft an order leading to Cersei’s demise and getting Tommen’s stamp onto it.

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6 hours ago, Ygrain said:

The choking: curiously, only just now did I remember a pretty good twist that Babylon 5 did on a vision of being choked, and I wonder if GRRM is familiar with it. - For those of you who don't know the show: there is a guy who had a vision of his death by choking by a particular person, so he hates and mistrusts the other guy. However, as the story proceeds, the two are forced to cooperate and even become friends, and the choking scene actually turns out to be suicide-by-friend as a deliverance from a mind-controlling alien. So, perhaps the valonquar's act which Cersei fears so much might actually be a gift of mercy that she will ask for, a final act of love from Jaime.

This would be a nice twist!

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My favorite theory has to be that her death will come from Tommen’s (the younger brother) Hands not hands.  So far Tommen has had three Hands: Harys Swift, Orton Merryweather, and Mace Tyrell.  And keep in mind, the one thing that Tommen loves to do is put his stamp on anything that you put in front of him.  It would be awfully easy for a combination of any of Tommen’s Hands to draft an order leading to Cersei’s demise and getting Tommen’s stamp onto it.

I've never heard this theory before but I like it also. Do you happen to have a link to the theory? 

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On 1/1/2020 at 7:50 PM, Vaith said:

Was mostly joking about High Valyrian rules in response to that question as to whether valonqar is plural. I don't believe that Martin ever intended that valonqar could mean younger male parallel cousin when he wrote AFFC. ;)

I wish I knew where the word "valonqar" comes from. It bothers me so much when I can't solve a word-play

valonqar should be "valaryian" + "lion" ... but I don't know what "qar" is

qar ~ car ~ kar ..... what does it mean??!?!

 

In regards to the strangling and choking ... Cersei is going to choke on ashes when she gets burnt alive

Her blood still marked him as he looked down at the queen. "I have never liked you, Cersei, but you were my own sister, so I never did you harm. You've ended that. I will hurt you for this. I don't know how yet, but give me time. A day will come when you think yourself safe and happy, and suddenly your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth, and you'll know the debt is paid." {Tyrion ACOK XII}

She won't turn into a charred corpse because her Targaryen blood won't allow it. She dies choking, shamed, lying naked on the floor, torn from everything when the YMBQ takes it from her.

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A question, as English is not my first language: "the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat" - is the use of the word "wrap" here natural, or is another verb used more commonly?

Where I'm going with this - though the outcome may not depend on the word choice at all: can you wrap a chain around someone's neck? As in, the Hand's chain, which are, well, hands?

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

A question, as English is not my first language: "the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat" - is the use of the word "wrap" here natural, or is another verb used more commonly?

Where I'm going with this - though the outcome may not depend on the word choice at all: can you wrap a chain around someone's neck? As in, the Hand's chain, which are, well, hands?

 

 

 

 

Yeah wrap is natural there but yes you definitely can wrap a chain around someone's neck as well. 

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The beautiful young queen, I think it's really Margaery or maybe Sansa, I don't put Daenerys here because I don't think she's involved enough in Cersei's journey so far.

But I think Cersei misunderstood this part, she would be the queen, have children, grow old, and another younger queen would take her place. Her paranoia about being "replaced" will cause the other part of the prophecy to be fulfilled, in which case she will be destroying herself, which is exactly what is happening.

Valonqar's participation here, I also think she's wrong "what's worth life when everything else was taken from you" the condition of death by Valoqar strikes me as a death of mercy, at a time she will wish to die, maybe he is Jaime, others who believe that death is a merciful gift are faceless men, this puts Arya as my second choice for Valonqar. 

 

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On 12/30/2019 at 10:13 PM, Rufus Snow said:
I certainly have no problem with the idea that Maggy had genuine powers of some sort, as the books make clear that blood magic is is a real force in this world. What does stretch belief is that a blood-mage ends up living like a circus freak, or doing 'turns' as a side-show at the tourney. Though she'd married into the Spicers, I guess they're still pretty much smallfolk at this stage, despite their wealth...
 

It's possible that Maggy was thrown out of her home by her sons or grandsons because of the image she projected. The older Lannisters seem to have quite a lot of contempt for the Spicers and their doubtful blood.

For a moment Tyrion could not believe he'd heard his father right. "He broke his sworn word . . ." he said, incredulous. "He threw away the Freys for . . ." Words failed him.
"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like." He shrugged. "She's long dead, to be sure. And Jeyne seemed a sweet child, I'll grant you, though I only saw her once. But with such doubtful blood . . ." (Tyrion III, ASoS 19)

So yeah, it wouldn't be all that surprising if she set up shop to try and make a living with her spells and potions and foretelling.

As far as this part goes;

Queen you shall be, the old woman had promised, with her lips still wet and red and glistening, until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear. (17-Cersei III, AFfC 12)

What about Arianne Martell? If Arianne marries Aegon, then she'd become queen. And she is actually close with Myrcella, in a way Myrcella might not even be close with her mother. I've wondered for a while if Cersei will not end up killing one of her children herself.

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17 hours ago, Ygrain said:

It doesn't say so explicitely but does imply heavily - speaking about her children's funeral shrouds in one sentence and drowning in tears in the following is the connection.

Exactly! It is implicit in the text that Cersei outlives her kids.

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