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Question about Cersei and Maggy's prophecy

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I think it's quite possible that Cersei rushed and/or misinterpreted the prophecy she was given: both of her brothers are younger than her. At this point, either of them might find themselves in position to either kill her or abandon her to her fate—and in fact Jaime has already done so in Feast. The "another, younger and more beautiful" may also be Daenerys or Sansa rather than Margaery (I personally believe it was Margaery although Indirectly- Cersei projected everything onto Margaery and in trying to "stop" her, caused her own downfall). Finally, the prophecy does not necessarily say her children will predecease her, though one clearly has (one possible interpretation could even be "they'll be golden-haired", rather than meaning an actual crown or shroud on their heads - they'll live (their entire lives) golden-haired?). Heck, the prophecy doesn't even say it'll be her younger brother; the most usual translation of valonqar is given as "the younger brother", but with the general Valyrian cultural blindness towards gendered descriptions, could actually mean "younger sibling". Given the number of people she's already hurt, what are the odds that one of them has a significant younger brother or sister who might want revenge? (Hint: Daenerys, Sansa, Arya, Margaery, Loras, Bran, Nymeria and Tyene Sand, Euron Greyjoy and (f)Aegon are all younger siblings with reason to want her dead).

What do you think?

Edited by LHakaLH

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personally, i think it will be Arya that will end /cause effects to end Cersei's life ... as Arya is, slowly but surely, successfully getting her 'death wish' list completed :)  & also she is a younger sibling so that would fit the ambiguous pronouns of the Vayrian language.

 

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5 hours ago, LHakaLH said:

I think it's quite possible that Cersei rushed and/or misinterpreted the prophecy she was given: both of her brothers are younger than her. At this point, either of them might find themselves in position to either kill her or abandon her to her fate—and in fact Jaime has already done so in Feast. The "another, younger and more beautiful" may also be Daenerys or Sansa rather than Margaery (I personally believe it was Margaery although Indirectly- Cersei projected everything onto Margaery and in trying to "stop" her, caused her own downfall). Finally, the prophecy does not necessarily say her children will predecease her, though one clearly has (one possible interpretation could even be "they'll be golden-haired", rather than meaning an actual crown or shroud on their heads - they'll live (their entire lives) golden-haired?). Heck, the prophecy doesn't even say it'll be her younger brother; the most usual translation of valonqar is given as "the younger brother", but with the general Valyrian cultural blindness towards gendered descriptions, could actually mean "younger sibling". Given the number of people she's already hurt, what are the odds that one of them has a significant younger brother or sister who might want revenge? (Hint: Daenerys, Sansa, Arya, Margaery, Loras, Bran, Nymeria and Tyene Sand, Euron Greyjoy and (f)Aegon are all younger siblings with reason to want her dead).

What do you think?

It's been discussed pretty thoroughly here a few times but always a good convo. 

I think the "gold will be their crowns" could certainly be referencing their golden locks but I don't think "gold will be their shrouds" can mean their hair as well. That, in & of itself, only means the kids will die, not necessarily before her but that's hardly a prophecy. Of course they will die, everyone does. 

The younger, more beautiful could be a number of people, I agree. And is most likely not going to be who Cersei expects. 

As to the valonqar I don't think it is just any younger brother. It has to be either her own younger brother (most likely IMO & probably Jaime) or someone who is known as THE younger brother. Since we don't know anyone that fits that & I don't think George is going to introduce him this late in the series, my money is on Jaime. 

I don't think it's impossible that Arya kills Cersei wearing Jaime's face though. 

 

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If we take everyone in Westeros who is a younger brother and then expand that to the gender-neutral Valyrian, anyone who is not the oldest child is eligible to kill Cersei. That's some seriously worthless info. Whoever it is, it will be someone very meaningful to Cersei's arc and also Maggy as the teller.

Try this as an option. Maggy showed deep animosity towards Cersei. Granted Cersei was being...herself...but still. Maggy is part of the Spicers. When we look at the names of the Spicers, they strongly look like the Reynes' names. There are only 3 Robbs in the books, and one was Robb Reyne. Robb Stark died during the Rains of Castamere. Did he unknowingly marry into the Reynes when he married Jeyne? Castamere was just handed to the Spicers who have names like the Reynes. The sigil of the Reynes, who nearly won Casterly Rock from the Lannisters, is the red lion who might well be interpreted as red lion little brother to the Lannisters' big brother golden lion.

Another fun idea is that Cersei's children fit the younger brother classification. Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion all have 100% of their genes from Tywin and Joanna. As Joff, Myrcella, Tommen are inbred, so do they making them genetic siblings of their own parents in a fashion. That would mean Cersei sealed her doom when she damned her own children with golden hair which should have been Baratheon black.

And I'll bring up another Lannister/Shrouded Lord Prince of Sorrows/cursed bloodline connection:

The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

 

Edited by Lollygag

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

As to the valonqar I don't think it is just any younger brother. It has to be either her own younger brother.

Or maybe her good brother

7 hours ago, LHakaLH said:

the most usual translation of valonqar is given as "the younger brother", but with the general Valyrian cultural blindness towards gendered descriptions, could actually mean "younger sibling".

So then her good sister, as in her sister in law, as in Sansa, as in the younger and more beautiful

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3 hours ago, Yaya said:

personally, i think it will be Arya that will end /cause effects to end Cersei's life ... as Arya is, slowly but surely, successfully getting her 'death wish' list completed :)  & also she is a younger sibling so that would fit the ambiguous pronouns of the Vayrian language.

 

Arya's list would normally seem like an indicator that she's going to kill those people in most works of fiction, but most people who've been removed from it weren't killed by her. She also doesn't spend much time near King's Landing after she begins her list, which also keeps her from many people on her list.

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6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Cersei, Jaime and Tyrion all have 100% of their genes from Tywin and Joanna.

That is far from certain. There is a good chance that Cersei and Jaime are actually Aerys's children. 

As for Cersei's reading of the prophecy, people misinterpreting prophecies and making them happen by the very things they do to prevent them is a classic in literature. It's fairly obvious (just not to Cersei) that Dany the is younger queen. The part about her children is pretty straight forward. Joff and Tommen have both been crowned king already, and Joff is dead. Tommen will bite the dust at some point, and so will Myrcella, but she will be crowned queen before that. (I don't think that attempt in Dorne counts.) The only thing we are not sure about is the valonquar, but it's fairly obvious that it's not Tyrion. Has to be Jaime then.

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2 hours ago, Loge said:

That is far from certain. There is a good chance that Cersei and Jaime are actually Aerys's children

A good chance? Not really. It's not impossible but it certainly isn't canon. 

2 hours ago, Loge said:

It's fairly obvious (just not to Cersei) that Dany the is younger queen

Again, not really. It could be, but there are other candidates who fit the bill. 

2 hours ago, Loge said:

The only thing we are not sure about is the valonquar, but it's fairly obvious that it's not Tyrion. Has to be Jaime then

I agree it is most likely Jaime but the thing about prophecy is, it isn't fairly obvious. If it were, it wouldn't be a repeated discussion here. 

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9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

As to the valonqar I don't think it is just any younger brother. It has to be either her own younger brother (most likely IMO & probably Jaime) or someone who is known as THE younger brother. Since we don't know anyone that fits that

Tyrion joined Second Sons. Any member of that sellswords company is THE younger brother. So Tyrion could be valonquar not only because he is Cersei's younger brother, but also because he is a Second Son.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Tyrion joined Second Sons. Any member of that sellswords company is THE younger brother. So Tyrion could be valonquar not only because he is Cersei's younger brother, but also because he is a Second Son.

Could be. 

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Last I remembered, "valonqar" is a Valyrian word

Why would George tell Maggy to tell Cersei that a Valyrian gender-neutral younger sibling is out to get her?

Hmmmmm

Also since valonqar is gender-neutral, is it quantity-neutral too? Like can valonqar mean 1 person or 2 or 3 or infinity? (As long as it is not 0)
I'm genuinely asking, I can't seem to recall. I was wondering if both Jaime and Tyrion can add their hands.

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hi Fictionisn'tReal - i do know this as i have read the books, yes, she doesn't kill them all personally.

On 12/26/2019 at 10:14 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Arya's list would normally seem like an indicator that she's going to kill those people in most works of fiction, but most people who've been removed from it weren't killed by her. She also doesn't spend much time near King's Landing after she begins her list, which also keeps her from many people on her list.


consider this:  just being on her list almost certainly means you will die, probably with pain; so in a way, she has actually killed everyone on her list just by putting them on her list

plus - she isn't going to be away from Westeros forever; she will return once she is able & she will find nymeria, destroy all her enemies & all will be well.

 

but to stay on topic - to me it seems WRONG - how would Maggy "know" about Robert's children?  she sucked on Cersei's blood not Robert's.  plus, this was well before Robert being king.  way way before Cersei even knew of Robert.   yeah yeah, prophecy - it's a prediction of the future.  sure.  right.   let's look at the tarot cards.  read your horoscope. 

it just seems to me that a person with the ability to 'see' the future would only be able to deal with the physical information given,  Cersei had no knowledge of Robert at that point in her life.  she never knew of him or that he was the king she would marry ...

to me it seems to be that Maggy mind fucked her.  and why not?  some little elite little shit kid waking you up and demanding to have her fortune told, AND threatening you? were i Maggy, i would tell all the wicked evil truth i would be able to know with horrible lies.  and why not?   Maggy didn't even get any coins from those spoiled rich kids for their "fortunes".

Edited by Yaya
capital letter error

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On 12/28/2019 at 4:26 AM, The Map Guy said:

Last I remembered, "valonqar" is a Valyrian word

Why would George tell Maggy to tell Cersei that a Valyrian gender-neutral younger sibling is out to get her?

Hmmmmm

Also since valonqar is gender-neutral, is it quantity-neutral too? Like can valonqar mean 1 person or 2 or 3 or infinity? (As long as it is not 0)
I'm genuinely asking, I can't seem to recall. I was wondering if both Jaime and Tyrion can add their hands.

She's a fortuneteller. It's her job to be a bit mysterious ;)

Well, if you take David Peterson's High Valyrian rules, then there are plurals, e.g. "valar" (men) is the plural of "vala." (man)

And according to Peterson, there actually is a feminine form of valonqar, "hāedar." And valonqar can also mean your father's brother's son who's younger than you, or your mother's sister's son who is younger than you. So thanks Peterson, now the word can mean Tyrek and his zombie can come and strangle Cersei for his death in the riot in ACOK (though I seriously doubt it's any Lannister other than Jaime or Tyrion).

 

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On 12/26/2019 at 10:04 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think the "gold will be their crowns" could certainly be referencing their golden locks but I don't think "gold will be their shrouds" can mean their hair as well. That, in & of itself, only means the kids will die, not necessarily before her but that's hardly a prophecy. Of course they will die, everyone does. 

About the shroud, the children are "Baratheons" and the dominant color on the coat of arms is gold. When Joffrey's body is exposed after his death, he dressed in a gilded armor, so gold.  

On 12/28/2019 at 12:58 AM, Yaya said:

but to stay on topic - to me it seems WRONG - how would Maggy "know" about Robert's children?  she sucked on Cersei's blood not Robert's.  plus, this was well before Robert being king.  way way before Cersei even knew of Robert.   yeah yeah, prophecy - it's a prediction of the future.  sure.  right.   let's look at the tarot cards.  read your horoscope. 

I can't pretend like I understand how this works or anything like that, but there is also Yna who foretells the future by tasting blood. She tells Arya that the Sailor's Wife's first husband is dead after she tasted her blood. 

And she knew about Melara's death without even tasting her blood.

It's not like she's wrong about Robert anyway. There are already seven children that we know of.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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11 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

About the shroud, the children are "Baratheons" and the dominant color on the coat of arms is gold. When Joffrey's body is exposed after his death, he dressed in a gilded armor, so gold

Yeah that's my take as well. I can't remember who I was replying to there but the poster suggested the golden crowns & golden shrouds were both referring to their hair. 

 

11 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I can't pretend like I understand how this works or anything like that, but there is also Yna who foretells the future by tasting blood. She tells Arya that the Sailor's Wife's first husband is dead after she tasted her blood. 

And she knew about Melara's death without even tasting her blood.

It's not like she's wrong about Robert anyway. There are already seven children that we know of.

For sure. It doesn't seem necessary for the person supplying the blood to be the person they are speaking of, just that it involves them somehow. However she does it, it doesn't seem to be guessing because she is right. I can see how Cersei may help bring about some of the prophecy but she certainly can't control how many children Robert has. 

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Just to note, Maggy says the valonqar, not your (Cersei's) valonqar.

 

On 12/28/2019 at 12:58 AM, Yaya said:


hi Fictionisn'tReal - i do know this as i have read the books, yes, she doesn't kill them all personally.


consider this:  just being on her list almost certainly means you will die, probably with pain; so in a way, she has actually killed everyone on her list just by putting them on her list

plus - she isn't going to be away from Westeros forever; she will return once she is able & she will find nymeria, destroy all her enemies & all will be well.

 

but to stay on topic - to me it seems WRONG - how would Maggy "know" about Robert's children?  she sucked on Cersei's blood not Robert's.  plus, this was well before Robert being king.  way way before Cersei even knew of Robert.   yeah yeah, prophecy - it's a prediction of the future.  sure.  right.   let's look at the tarot cards.  read your horoscope. 

it just seems to me that a person with the ability to 'see' the future would only be able to deal with the physical information given,  Cersei had no knowledge of Robert at that point in her life.  she never knew of him or that he was the king she would marry ...

to me it seems to be that Maggy mind fucked her.  and why not?  some little elite little shit kid waking you up and demanding to have her fortune told, AND threatening you? were i Maggy, i would tell all the wicked evil truth i would be able to know with horrible lies.  and why not?   Maggy didn't even get any coins from those spoiled rich kids for their "fortunes".

Yes, she absolutely does mess with Cersei's head! But I do believe that Maggy has some genuine magic like so many others in this series.

There's a lot of genie imagery around Maggy. There's the spice, Eastern feel, tents, carpets, snakes. Then Cersei asks three questions which are actually Cersei asking whether her three wishes will come true. Genie wishes are often curses. Cersei even rubs Maggy's lamp so to speak 3 times.

"Begone," she told the girls, in a croaking whisper.

"We came for a foretelling," young Cersei told her.

"Begone," croaked the old woman, a second time.

"We heard that you can see into the morrow," said Melara. "We just want to know what men we're going to marry."

"Begone," croaked Maggy, a third time.

 

Maggy first directly and simply answers each question as obligated. Then she adds something (in red) which screws with Cersei's head on her own. It's Maggy's freebies which are cursed.

 

When Will I Marry the Prince?

 

Here, Maggy deliberately gave Cersei a vague answer and when Cersei assumed that which fit her vanity. Maggy does not correct her. 

Go, the dreaming queen thought, hold your tongue, and flee. But the girl did not have sense enough to be afraid.

"When will I wed the prince?" she asked.

"Never. You will wed the king."

Beneath her golden curls, the girl's face wrinkled up in puzzlement. For years after, she took those words to mean that she would not marry Rhaegar until after his father Aerys had died.

 

I Will be Queen, though?

 

"I will be queen, though?" asked the younger her.

"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggy's yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

Anger flashed across the child's face. "If she tries I will have my brother kill her." Even then she would not stop, willful child as she was. She still had one more question due her, one more glimpse into her life to come.

 

 

Will the King and I have Children?

 

"Will the king and I have children?" she asked.

"Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you."

That made no sense to Cersei. Her thumb was throbbing where she'd cut it, and her blood was dripping on the carpet. [magic carpet? More blood offered so is this why the valonqar statement is offered?]

How could that be? she wanted to ask, but she was done with her questions.

The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

 

 I think there's more going on here than just the valonqar thing. A few more observations.
 

  • We are told of this sequence from Cersei's dream. We should perhaps have the same caution in interpreting that we have in interpreting Ned's TOJ dream or any visions.

    She dreamt an old dream, of three girls in brown cloaks, a wattled crone, and a tent that smelled of death.

    The crone's tent was dark, with a tall peaked roof. She did not want to go in, no more than she had wanted to at ten, but the other girls were watching her, so she could not turn away. They were three in the dream, as they had been in life.
    ...

    The only light came from an iron brazier shaped like a basilisk's head, a dim green light that made the walls of the tent look cold and dead and rotten. Had it been that way in life as well? Cersei could not seem to remember.

     

  • There's a lot about Cersei not being able to speak. Not sure how to interpret this.

    But though she moved her mouth, no words came out.

    Without a tongue, she could only watch as the girl threw off her cloak, kicked the witch's bed, and said, "Wake up, we want our futures told."

    Listen to her, the queen would have cried if she had her tongue. You still have time to flee. Run, you little fools!’

    Go, the dreaming queen thought, hold your tongue, and flee.
    ...

    Melara had begged her never to speak of the things they heard that night in the maegi's tent. If we never talk about it we'll soon forget, and then it will be just a bad dream we had, Melara had said. Bad dreams never come true. The both of them had been so young, that had sounded almost wise.

     

     

  • Maggy knew Melara's future without tasting her blood which begs the question of why she needed Cersei's blood. My bet is that Maggy took Cersei's blood for other reasons. This looks more like a curse to me than a prophesy. There's also Maggy's black blood and cold mouth which calls to what Dywen and Ygritte say about Craster - he has black blood, smells cold and bears a heavy curse.

    The girl with the golden curls put her hands upon her hips. "Give us our foretelling, or I'll go to my lord father and have you whipped for insolence."

     

    "Please," begged Melara. "Just tell us our futures, then we'll go."

     

    "Some are here who have no futures," Maggy muttered in her terrible deep voice. She pulled her robe about her shoulders and beckoned the girls closer. "Come, if you will not go. Fools. Come, yes. I must taste your blood.

    ...
     

    "I get three questions too," her friend insisted. And when Cersei tugged upon her arm, she wriggled free and turned back to the crone. "Will I marry Jaime?" she blurted out.

     

    You stupid girl, the queen thought, angry even now. Jaime does not even know you are alive. Back then her brother lived only for swords and dogs and horses . . . and for her, his twin.

     

    "Not Jaime, nor any other man," said Maggy. "Worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close."

    ...



    "The only breath we smell is yours," said Cersei. There was a jar of some thick potion by her elbow, sitting on a table. She snatched it up and threw it into the old woman's eyes. In life the crone had screamed at them in some queer foreign tongue, and cursed them as they fled her tent. But in the dream her face dissolved, melting away into ribbons of grey mist until all that remained were two squinting yellow eyes, the eyes of death.

    ...

    Melara had heard the serving girls whispering how she could
    curse a man or make him fall in love, summon demons and foretell the future.  


     
  • Knowing that Cersei would kill Melara at 10 tells Maggy a lot about Cersei, hence knowing exactly how to screw with her head. Maggy lets Cersei interpret incorrect which are often things which are meant to play on her paranoia and vanity, things Maggy can assume from general word of mouth around the Westerlands and knowing that she'd kill Melara. Telling her that she wouldn't marry Rhaegar whom she wanted, that Robert would cheat on her a lot before they were even married, that other women were after her, that her own family would kill her...they all leads to Cersei to make choices which lead to her own doom. Cersei misses the valonqar and her paranoia leads her to mistake that for your valonqar and I'd bet that was deliberate on Maggy's part.
     

 

Apologies for the formatting. Not sure why it's not taking.

Edited by Lollygag

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On 12/27/2019 at 5:17 AM, Loge said:

That is far from certain. There is a good chance that Cersei and Jaime are actually Aerys's children. 

As for Cersei's reading of the prophecy, people misinterpreting prophecies and making them happen by the very things they do to prevent them is a classic in literature. It's fairly obvious (just not to Cersei) that Dany the is younger queen. The part about her children is pretty straight forward. Joff and Tommen have both been crowned king already, and Joff is dead. Tommen will bite the dust at some point, and so will Myrcella, but she will be crowned queen before that. (I don't think that attempt in Dorne counts.) The only thing we are not sure about is the valonquar, but it's fairly obvious that it's not Tyrion. Has to be Jaime then.

Maybe, maybe not. I think Tyrion is a chimera of Aerys' and Tywin's children but I highly doubt Maury Povich is going to show and clear all of this up for us. My point is that Joff, Myrcella and Tommen get 100% of their genes from the same source as their parents thus making them more like genetic siblings.

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thanks for typing that out Lollygag & i like your ideas.

(i've been saving my 'Cersei' reread for a while as i really do enjoy her character (she has a similar sense of humour like Jaime &Tyrion) i may have to move her chapters up on my list)

i like the idea of the blood being needed for a curse ... much like Mel's leech thing in a way.  i'm trying to think of any other blood takings/offerings in the text that are unlike entrails on a heart tree but at this time, i can not.

more things to think about !

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

My point is that Joff, Myrcella and Tommen get 100% of their genes from the same source as their parents thus making them more like genetic siblings.

HA! omg - i totally did not fully process that fact - weirds me out now that i do reflect on it!

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6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I think there's more going on here than just the valonqar thing. A few more observations.

 

 

  • We are told of this sequence from Cersei's dream. We should perhaps have the same caution in interpreting that we have in interpreting Ned's TOJ dream or any visions.

    She dreamt an old dream, of three girls in brown cloaks, a wattled crone, and a tent that smelled of death.

    The crone's tent was dark, with a tall peaked roof. She did not want to go in, no more than she had wanted to at ten, but the other girls were watching her, so she could not turn away. They were three in the dream, as they had been in life.

I was struck when you mentioned the ToJ fever-dream, and this is the bell that rang in my head:

 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.
They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

 

 
I wonder if there's some reason the George used such similar sounding phrases relating to two different dreams about important past events? On one level it may be a hint that both dreams are true recollections of real events, or just that the two dreamers believe them to be accurate dreams. On the other hand the dreams both refer to events which subsequently shaped their respective dreamers' lives to a large degree: Ned and his promise; Cersei and her prophecy.
I certainly have no problem with the idea that Maggy had genuine powers of some sort, as the books make clear that blood magic is is a real force in this world. What does stretch belief is that a blood-mage ends up living like a circus freak, or doing 'turns' as a side-show at the tourney. Though she'd married into the Spicers, I guess they're still pretty much smallfolk at this stage, despite their wealth...
The other question re valonquar, is why use the Valyrian word? OK she came from Essos originally, maybe she did that immigrant grannie thing of not really learning the local language too well, but there again she might have a specific meaning that the Common Tongue doesn't really stretch to.... and as others have said before, 'the valonquar' does make me think it won't be anything as straightforward as simply one of Cersei's own younger brothers. I like the idea of Arya wearing one of their faces though...

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