Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker (among other things, wink wink) SPOILERS

[Rhom]

58 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Not sure if this is canon anymore but at one point it was supposed to be that both Death Stars started construction at the same time.

Yes, this was my memory as well.

[Werthead]

59 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Not sure if this is canon anymore but at one point it was supposed to be that both Death Stars started construction at the same time.

I think there was fanwank to this end, but nothing in official canon to support that. In fact, the old canon specified that DS2 started construction after DS1 so the exhaust port weakness could be specifically eliminated.

The old EU canon also stated that there was a prototype Death Star which was just a superstructure with the superlaser and main generator, but that was exercised from the new canon.

[Jace, Extat]

13 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I think there was fanwank to this end, but nothing in official canon to support that. In fact, the old canon specified that DS2 started construction after DS1 so the exhaust port weakness could be specifically eliminated.

The old EU canon also stated that there was a prototype Death Star which was just a superstructure with the superlaser and main generator, but that was exercised from the new canon.

Ah, the old Maw Instillation. Could have been a cool setting to visit. Maybe a last assault on the Imperial Remnant's final bastion. No, not Bastion you nerds!

But "they fly now!" so I have no room to complain.

[Darth Richard II]

Oh I dunno, if I have room to complain everyone else does.

[Astromech]

2 hours ago, Simon Steele said:

 

I feel this way about Return of the Jedi as well. Why a new Deathstar? We saw Han frozen, the rebel fleet pretty much reduced to nothing, and the bad guys won. Then RotJ opens with a new death star in the opening crawl. I find that as egregious as Palpatine coming back with his own fleet. It was unnecessary and overly complicated the human drama. That's why this movie isn't as good as TFA or TLJ, but the way people talk about these issues do not equate a stain nearly so bad as the prequels, I say! 

 

My brother thought it was the same Death Star as in ANH. It just wasn't completely destroyed. He convinced himself for years even when the title crawl of ROTJ clearly stated it was a new Death Star. But to be fair, my brother has never been very big on reading.

 

5 hours ago, Ran said:

That’s the rumor going around, and that it all connects to a mysterious Project Luminous cross-media set of stories from a number of different creators.

Whether it’s true or not, it’s not clear.

That could be amazing. I was hoping they would eventually focus on some new time periods with completely different characters and worlds. I just hope it doesn't end up being Star Trek.

[HexMachina]

3 hours ago, john said:

Here’s some more nitpicks about RoS - the acting was bad, the writing was bad, the direction was bad. Maybe that’s true of the OT as well but not to the same extent.

Enjoyment is always subjective though. Sounds like I enjoyed the prequels a lot more than @Simon Steele did.  They were bad too of course but I sort of enjoyed them in a way I couldn’t with RoS.

Of all the criticisms of RoS this is probably the first time i have seen that one and i couldn’t disagree more. Even when given dud material the acting in this trilogy has been very good imo, with Driver and Ridley being the highlights. Acting is probably one thing i would say this trilogy has over the OT

[Jace, Extat]

I and people whose opinions I value (humans, not internet personalities) all think that the cast was varying degrees of bored to outright disgusted during their performances.

Adam Driver says "ow" after he is forcibly turned good against his will. That's his only line after talking to Harrison Ford.

Daisey Ridley often is just staring blankly in the distance. John Boyega screams "REY!" with increasingly absurd inflection.

People who say "The acting was top-notch!" just got swept up by the fact that all of these actors are genuinely charismatic and you like them and the characters they once portrayed. The acting in this one was exactly as bland and bored as in Return of the Jedi. Just because you like actors or characters doesn't mean you have to lie to yourselves and others about the quality of their performance in a given effort.

People can be charming and talented while also checking out of work.

[karaddin]

On 1/3/2020 at 10:16 AM, HelenaExMachina said:

Your post actually has me wondering now why Boba Fett was even still there. Its supposed to be a year or so since Han was frozen right? Was his payment an all expsenses paid retirement plan to Jabba’s palace?

I think you can assume from Greedo in ANH, and from Boba only being there to capture Han, that Jabba keeps several bounty hunters on retainer if not as salaried employees. Apparently none of Jabba's smugglers had dropped their cargo at the first sign of an Imperial cruiser in the last year. Probably because the Empire was busy fighting the Rebels.

See - totally consistent head canon!

On 1/5/2020 at 6:23 PM, Raja said:

I really liked TLJ & I am very fond of TFA too. I think that's why I was so disappointed by TROS. People can keep going on about Disney or Kennedy not knowing what they were doing, but I still think TLJ & TFA are very good movies ( TFA does feel a little templatized, but I still enjoy the characters) - It's just unfortunate that this one was rushed with the writing & execution  so mediocre.

I actually think the first 2 movies being independently good, but not meshing into a consistent story with the 3rd movie is a big piece of evidence for the problem being the overall coordination, not the individual movies. If the individual movies were bad I wouldn't expect any more.

4 hours ago, Ran said:

I don't think the fleet was reduced to nothing in TESB. The fleet was basically not at Hoth at all, in fact -- the ships escaping the planet were mostly just supply ships and transports for Rebel HQ. Extra-canonical stuff explains why there's this big fleet in RotJ that was not seen in TESB by indicating that Admiral Ackbar created a doctrine that the bulk of the Rebel fleet should not be at the same place as the Rebel High Command, under the theory that the Rebels had a chance at recovering if they lost HQ or if they lost the fleet, but not if they lost both.

This was actually one area where Rogue One improved ANH for me. The Rebels only have fighters to use against the Death Star at the end not only because larger ships would be useless, but because they also just got wrecked a few days ago at Skarif. Fighters are the only ships the Rebel cells stilll at Yavin IV have. Clearly the Ghost had booked it out of there given it shows back up in RoS - presumably piloted by Hera and Kanan's kid.

[Rippounet]

34 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

People who say "The acting was top-notch!" just got swept up by the fact that all of these actors are genuinely charismatic and you like them and the characters they once portrayed. The acting in this one was exactly as bland and bored as in Return of the Jedi. Just because you like actors or characters doesn't mean you have to lie to yourselves and others about the quality of their performance in a given effort.

My favorite character of that movie was probably Luke's X-wing... I really don't think I got swept up by anything.

Given the script they had to work with, not to mention the fact that most of the shooting was no doubt done in front of a green screen (with glowsticks for lightsabers), I genuinely think the acting was great.
It's not like the story gave Boyega much to portray, or as if Ridley could magically compensate for the writers' indecision about who her character is supposed to be and what she's supposed to feel... Only Driver really had anything consistent to work with throughout the trilogy.
Nah, they did a good job. Or at least, as good a job as they could. The acting was what made the whole thing almost believable.
Almost.

[Corvinus85]

9 hours ago, ljkeane said:

It's not that big of a deal but after seeing it talked up a bit that Wedge was going to be in the film that was it? Couldn't he have at least been flying an x-wing or something. If we're going to have fan service cameos at least make them a bit cooler.

You don't even know the half of it, because in the canon beyond the movie, Wedge Antilles is likely a sad man, despite the cheery moment we see in the movie.

Spoiler

Snap Waxley (Greg Grunberg) is his stepson, Wedge having married, not sure sure exactly when, Snap's mother, Norra, also a former Rebel pilot. In the novel Rise of the Resistance, which precedes this movie, Snap openly acknowledges Wedge as his dad. So just moments before we see Wedge's cameo, his stepson is killed. But all this character development is reserved for books and animated shows.

 

[Darth Richard II]

I’d say the acting in TFA and TLJ were great, this one, I dunno. As someone said above it’s very RotJ. Everyone looks bored. 

[karaddin]

I need to defend RotJ - having just watched it again, I still put it right up the top. The entire arc of Luke/Vader/The Emperor in the base on the moon and then in the Death Star is as good as SW gets. The start of the space battle when the fleet jumps in and Lando figures out the shield is up is fantastic and leads perfectly into the iconic "Its a trap!".

The only fleet battles that compare are the start of RotS (which, unlike my opinion of most of that movie, is actually fantastic) and Rogue One.

[Rubicante]

25 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I need to defend RotJ - having just watched it again, I still put it right up the top. The entire arc of Luke/Vader/The Emperor in the base on the moon and then in the Death Star is as good as SW gets. The start of the space battle when the fleet jumps in and Lando figures out the shield is up is fantastic and leads perfectly into the iconic "Its a trap!".

The only fleet battles that compare are the start of RotS (which, unlike my opinion of most of that movie, is actually fantastic) and Rogue One.

I think Revenge of the Sith has the best opening act of any of the Star Wars movies.  And although that movie does have its own issues, it is still my second favorite Star Wars movie after The Empire Strikes Back.

I actually had to stop and think whether The Rise of Skywalker or the The Phantom Menace was the better movie, which is frightening.  I give a slight edge to The Rise of Skywalker.  People mainly hate The Phantom Menace due to Jar Jar Binks, but I actually like Binks more than Poe Dameron.  I cannot stand Poe.  At least there wasn't much of him in The Force Awakens, but he was horrible in The Last Jedi, and only slightly less annoying in The Rise of Skywalker. 

 

[The Last Storm]

10 minutes ago, Rubicante said:

I think Revenge of the Sith has the best opening act of any of the Star Wars movies.  And although that movie does have its own issues, it is still my second favorite Star Wars movie after The Empire Strikes Back.

I actually had to stop and think whether The Rise of Skywalker or the The Phantom Menace was the better movie, which is frightening.  I give a slight edge to The Rise of Skywalker.  People mainly hate The Phantom Menace due to Jar Jar Binks, but I actually like Binks more than Poe Dameron.  I cannot stand Poe.  At least there wasn't much of him in The Force Awakens, but he was horrible in The Last Jedi, and only slightly less annoying in The Rise of Skywalker. 

 

Id put Binks above Poe for sure, and just behind Finn. And while I like RotS, wow, your putting it above Return of the  Jedi? 

[Darth Richard II]

Oh, Ewoks are nasty little fuckers! They were going to EAT them!

Also, yeah, the into the trap cue is my favorite musical cue from all 9 films. It’s fucking brilliant.

[The Mother of The Others]

Ha!    Got a free movie ticket to avoid $upporting the mouse directly.  Saw the movie.   And, uh, .......

had a great time. 

 (Life is strange, right?)

 

Doing things in this order worked out wonderfully.   (Hearing all the spoilers first, taking time to vent and get all the frustration out, then see the movie when the only thing left is to enjoy the entertainment value, which turned out to be huge).   Not the best SW movie, but it was the best full ride starwars has ever taken us on from start to finish in the modern style where the energy flows.   

Prequels had bad energy like a closed chessboard position, tedious, to reflect how sideous was outplaying everyone in the clogged politics long game.   But they had great detail, those movies.  New trilogy has crappy details tossed together, but it makes up for it in part with Disney's freewheeling energy, like a wide open chessboard. The problem has been that TFA didn't do anything new with that energy to qualify as a new movie and TLJ didn't do anything good for the soul.   In this one, though, shit freaking happened!   Sideous delivered, once you forgive his reappearance.  He was styling and profiling.   He discovered sex and then ran out and equipped all his ships with dongs of destruction.  He grows his ships like turnips, underground, having seen Winter Soldier.  His lines dripped with sithiness.  His repeat of the Luke Turning Attempt, again at the risk of his empire, strikes me as the key to understanding him: he doesn't care about life, the ships can all burn as far as he's concerned.  Fleets come and go.  He gambled the fleet to lure Rey to him at a moment when Turning pressure could be applied because Sith Propagation Is More Important Than Empire.  It is the core desire.  The new powers from him and ren/rey rubbed me the right way.   Him creating snoke still seems dumb though.

 Really, it's the Infinity War movie style brought to star wars.   No settling into a full scene because it's all action.  So the dialog never had time to start sucking!   Just getting shit done.  True, the characters consequently also didn't get much chance to act, but hey, Fin got to be a real person at last, Poe kinda grew up, Rey got to dazzle us for real instead of the movie just telling us to love her.  Lots of action, which distracted me from all the movie's problems we've discussed.   Plus the Rey/Ren intereactions took on significance for me for the first time.  Ren is still unredeemable, and i like how the movie recognized that.  He knew who deserved to breathe again at the end, and who didn't.   But whereas the first 2 movies didn't make me feel anything for them, this time I was digging their teamup.   And Leia!   The leftover remnants of Leia footage were put to better use than what we saw of her in TFA!   

I started laughing for a full minute when Ren reforged that stupid helmet.   But then.... I kept laughing at the things they wanted me to laugh at, and a good time was had.    And thank god Ren had that fucking helmet on when his desert speeder got wrecked and the cockpit rolled across the sand for half a mile.

 

Oh, and for how the alliance got in atmosphere so easy, just say it was thanks to Rey marking the Wayfinder path for everyone else to follow.  See?   This movie finally gave me something to work with, as silly as it all is.

[HexMachina]

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

I need to defend RotJ - having just watched it again, I still put it right up the top. The entire arc of Luke/Vader/The Emperor in the base on the moon and then in the Death Star is as good as SW gets. The start of the space battle when the fleet jumps in and Lando figures out the shield is up is fantastic and leads perfectly into the iconic "Its a trap!".

The only fleet battles that compare are the start of RotS (which, unlike my opinion of most of that movie, is actually fantastic) and Rogue One.

I think parts of RotJ are great - everything on board the Death Star and the space fight beyond in particular. And there are some decent moments on the forest moon. Its the other parts which, for me, bring the film down

[Jace, Extat]

1 hour ago, Triskele said:

Agree with all of this and think it's surprising that there seems to be such a consensus that this one is clearly below the first two.  

I'm also a big Ewok apologist.  They look very believable as real creatures, far more so than any of the shite CGI in the prequels.  

The Hut lair opening is the only iffy part to me, and I don't particularly like it but think it's well-realized.  

I agree to this as well. The Ewok village scene stops the movie cold for like 15 minutes, and it kinda blows. But during that time I get to spend 15 minutes in one location with my favorite characters. There isn't even a 1 minute scene in Skywalker where the characters just spend time with each other without sixty-three cuts and an action beat.

Jedi is the worst of the Holy Trilogy because of the Death Star 2, intermittent bad writing, Ewoks, and Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford were too busy snorting lines to read them.

I will give people The Last Jedi being better than Return if the direction it wanted to go worked for them. I'll even give them The Force Awakens if they have appropriate qualifiers.

But anyone who ranks Revenge of the Computer Animators or Rise of Skylightning above Return of the Jedi doesn't watch movies correctly.

[Rubicante]

1 hour ago, The Last Storm said:

Id put Binks above Poe for sure, and just behind Finn. And while I like RotS, wow, your putting it above Return of the  Jedi? 

I've never liked the opening act of Return of the Jedi.  Whenever I watch that movie, I always find the Jabba's Palace segment to be a slog, and never really get into the movie until after that part is over.  But everything in the Emperor's throne room was great.  I say "was great", because

1. Lucas added this ridiculous audio with Darth Vader saying "No" and then yelling "Noooooo!" right before he turns on the Emperor.

2. The Rise of Skywalker exists.  Now when Vader throws the Emperor down that pit and vaporizes, I have to puzzle out how the Emperor could possibly survive that.  This is a major thing I dislike about The Rise of Skywalker.  Palpatine should not have been brought back.  I was actually hoping back in The Force Awakens that Snoke would eventually have been revealed to be Darth Plagueis.  You know, the guy who apparently figured out how to "cheat death".  Palpatine thought he had murdered Plagueis in his sleep, but Plagueis somehow prevails.  That way you don't need to bring Palpatine back. 

1 hour ago, Triskele said:

Agree with all of this and think it's surprising that there seems to be such a consensus that this one is clearly below the first two.  

I'm also a big Ewok apologist.  They look very believable as real creatures, far more so than any of the shite CGI in the prequels.  

The Hut lair opening is the only iffy part to me, and I don't particularly like it but think it's well-realized.  

Yeah.  I can't put my finger on why I don't like this part of the movie, but I don't.

[Rubicante]

15 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

I agree to this as well. The Ewok village scene stops the movie cold for like 15 minutes, and it kinda blows. But during that time I get to spend 15 minutes in one location with my favorite characters. There isn't even a 1 minute scene in Skywalker where the characters just spend time with each other without sixty-three cuts and an action beat.

Jedi is the worst of the Holy Trilogy because of the Death Star 2, intermittent bad writing, Ewoks, and Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford were too busy snorting lines to read them.

I will give people The Last Jedi being better than Return if the direction it wanted to go worked for them. I'll even give them The Force Awakens if they have appropriate qualifiers.

But anyone who ranks Revenge of the Computer Animators or Rise of Skylightning above Return of the Jedi doesn't watch movies correctly.

It's funny that you mention all of the cuts.  This is such a major pet peeve of mine with television and movies today.  It's like directors can't trust actors to act for longer than 2 seconds, or for the audience to pay attention for longer than 2 seconds without needing the camera angle to change perspective.  I think this is a major reason why the light saber battles in the sequel trilogy are so underwhelming.  Too many cuts.  You can't follow the action.  This was also why the Red Viper vs Mountain duel in the Game of Thrones television show sucked so bad. 

The Last Jedi is under no circumstances better than Return of the Jedi.  I hated that movie.  For me, it's the second worst Star Wars movie of all time (beating Attack of the Clones, which isn't just a bad Star Wars movie, it's one of the worst movies ever made). 

I admit, Revenge of the Sith is my own guilty pleasure.  I would be surprised if many people would rank it higher than Return of the Jedi.  So I totally get your point.  Return of the Jedi would be my third favorite Star Wars movie.