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Kalbear

Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker (among other things, wink wink) SPOILERS

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So the question is what have the Resistance accomplished?  The New Republic government was destroyed in the first film, the First Order lost it top leadership and the Resistance lost most of their organization and top leadership in the second movie.   The final movie saw the last leaders of the Resistance, First Order and the Final Order destroyed and so the Resistance leadership has fallen down to Poe Dameron, a not very smart fighter pilot, supported by a rag tag fleet of armed freighters and smuggler ships which will probably disperse now that the Final Order threat is over. 

It seems to me the Galaxy is heading into a time of chaos and disorder, with just one Jedi to try and police the whole thing. 

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Kennedy should have been fired after TLJ.  Not because of the quality of the film, but because it was clear she was a poor manager of the franchise.  She's the Jason Garrett of movie executives at this point.  Or (and this is a really big or), all this is really Disney's own doing, which is entirely possible.  But fuck if I know, don't care that much.  Someone should be fired though.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Raja said:

I mean - I don't really care what era it is set in. I'm fine with it being in a random period, it doesn't have to be set in a particular era for me to be interested in it - I just want good stories and characters :dunno:

You're weird, you know that right? :P

I mean obviously it has to be related to some old game, or comic book or debunked piece of EU. Good heavens, why would we ever want something original. That would mean taking creative risks, think of the children Raja! Please think of the children

3 hours ago, kuenjato said:

Yes, but they all tell a coherent story, regardless of individual quality. 

This is the point that sticks with me mostly. TROS was a bad film, but it is not as bad as the prequels (although the prequels are enjoyable bad, almost in the same way that the Room is for me, so that makes it also hard to fairly compare them).

What makes TROS much worse than the prequels however, is the fact that it opens a Pandora's box of stupid story choices (The Emperor lives, the Emperor fucks and everyone who means anything is related to someone else who used to mean anything) that just suck the magic out of the universe (even decreasing the quality of the OT in that way).

3 hours ago, kuenjato said:

Taking the biggest franchise (the films that basically started franchise films) and not even plotting a basic fucking arc for the main trilogy to follow -- it's beyond incompetent.

A lot of fanboys/girls like to mention how the originals were made seat-of-the-pants, but here's the thing: the scripts for New Hope and Empire were labored over, refined across dozens of drafts. All three of these come off as throwing balls of paint at an old canvas. 

People also have to understand that things change. I'm personally not a big fan of the MCU. They are the McDonalds of movie making, meaning that they always deliver the same kind of product. You know what you are going to get, you know it won't be any good but it is just okay and it entertains you for a little bit.

That being sad, the level of coordination involved in that franchise is amazing. Everyone watching it should take away that if you have the chance to plan for multiple movies like Star Wars clearly had, it makes sense that you spend some time thinking about the arc of your movies! That doesn't mean a minute-by-minute roadmap of everything that is going to happen, but just a sort of structure would be smart.

1 hour ago, red snow said:

I'm interested as to how it will hold up on second viewing. I fear it might be a bit like star trek into darkness where the first time around there was so much going on i didn't really have the chance to notice just how utterly stupid it was.

I mean it's already incredibly dumb on the first viewing with all the 'here you must find the thing, to find the thing, that can bring you to the place, to find the secret planet, bla bla bla" bullshit in it.

Edited by Veltigar

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We now live in a world in which Star Wars sucks. :(

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Well, I unashamedly love The Madalorian, Jedi: Fallen Order seems pretty good so far, I enjoyed 4 of the last 5 films, and the Marvel comics have mostly been amazing, so, I think I'll be ok.

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To most audience members (including me) they could use 400 years ago as a setting for literally anything they want, whether that is original content or something from the old EU. Most people who will see these films won’t care that in the comics/EU material this one time this thing as actually supposed to happen 40,000 years ago, not 400. The important part of that idea is that it is sufficiently long before the Skywalker saga to (hopefully) avoid any stupid references to the skywalker saga

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5 hours ago, Kalbear said:

The flip side to that is Kennedy also spearheaded the mandalorian, which is largely lauded as awesome and is a major factor in selling disney+, which they care about a great deal. Her involvement in that seems to be oddly overlooked. 

Now that I'm aware of her I see that Kathy has been a player forever in hollywood with her name slapped together with Speilberg as the producers of ET, etc.   So she's a pro's pro, and she's deeply familiar with the Star Wars universe, and as such she WAS the correct hire to captain this ship, as far as these things can be predicted.  It should have been a great marriage.    So.........what IS her deal?    What happened?

The best I can come up with is she's too good of a team player.   When Star Wars needed a Feige.  An individual to shape this world and determine its heading, to keep things coherent from movie to movie so Star Wars wouldn't bleed its magic dry but rather remain a strong brand to inspire our own future by example.    Was her crime that she accepted Iger's lack of vision when he told them to, ~ "Play it safe and not take any chances, and don't mess with the formula or tweak things"?   "Tweaking the force went badly for Lucas.   Just serve up a nice warm bowl of nothing so we can earn back the $3 billion.  Let the future stagnate onscreen so we can feast off of the star wars brand."  And she said Okay, when it was probably her job to tell Disney, "No.  That's the wrong move.   We need to be as bold as the future Lucas gave us, we need to pick a direction and develop this world in keeping with the distinctiveness we inherited.  We owe it to all the hungry fans to give them something worthy to chew on.   We owe them greatness, and we need to sharply define it, not turn out vague formless retreads in the interest of safety.   When the inspiration is allowed to stagnate, that way leads to depression.  Reaching for the stars isn't / shouldn't be safe.  I'll get you your earnings, but I'm going to earn them, thank you very much.  So I'm going to resend you George's notes, along with some new ideas of my own on where we'll be taking this thing.  And may the force be with you as you reconsider our work orders."

 

And then she apparently entertained each of the guest writers' ideas a bit too much, letting them take the ship this way and that instead of having everyone understand upon taking the job that there was going to be oversight and review of their ideas to ensure a united vision threaded the story together and kept the course true.

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I just saw Knives Out (written and directed by Rian Johnson of course) which was so good it weirdly made me feel better about the whole of the SW sequel trilogy.

Between, that and the Mandalorian, which I’ve been enjoying this week, the nerd rage over RoS has barely raised my blood pressure.

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Anecdotal, but kids seem to really love this one. Kind of reminds me of how much I loved RotJ as a kid, then soured in it, but now like it again. Ewoks fuck you up.

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I loved The Phantom Menace as a kid.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Raja said:

Lol.

What a scintillating response! As you're obviously a fan-troll, I suppose there's no need to continue this conversation.

Again, there are some lows in the Marvel universe. But the franchise overseer made sure to sow seeds and idea arcs that would climax across multiple movies, even 20 movies, while the sequel trilogy cannot remain consistent from movie to movie, each one reactionary to that which came before. 

To say nothing of the pretty easily defended argument that each of the sequel films are, in themselves, mediocre to outright bad. Even TLJ, which has the highest highs, also has around 30-40% of its runtime completely wasted or poorly executed. 

Edited by kuenjato

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Just now, kuenjato said:

What a scintillating response! As you're obviously a fan-troll, I suppose there's no need to continue this conversation.

Again, there are some lows in the Marvel universe. But the franchise overseer made sure to sow seeds and idea arcs that would climax across multiple movies, even 20 movies, while the sequel trilogy cannot remain consistent from movie to movie, becoming reactionary.

To say nothing of the pretty easily defended argument that each of the sequel films are, in themselves, mediocre to outright bad. Even TLJ, which has the highest highs, also has around 30-40% of its runtime completely wasted or poorly executed. 

No, he didn't. I've posted about this a billion times, go look up how phase 1 and 2 were run.

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47 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Anecdotal, but kids seem to really love this one. Kind of reminds me of how much I loved RotJ as a kid, then soured in it, but now like it again. Ewoks fuck you up.

My 9 year old likes Rise of Skywalker best of the series. Of course, she hasn't watched any of the other films in at least two years, and she's nine. Rey is the coolest thing ever. Consistency between this film and the others are the least of her concerns.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

No, he didn't. I've posted about this a billion times, go look up how phase 1 and 2 were run.

I watched all of the films across a month before Avengers: Infinity War, and there is a consistency even in the first two phases; across the entire 20+ film serial, there is a consistency (in terms of narrative coherence) that is unmatched in cinema long-form serials to this point. Not to say the films are perfect, or there weren't mistakes, but there is pretty much inarguably a consistent long-term story arc envisioned and slowly dolled out across multiple films, even if confined to the end-credit blips. 

Edited by kuenjato

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56 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I loved The Phantom Menace as a kid.

Really?  I didn't think you were younger than me.  Weird.  I already liked you better when I thought you were older.

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4 hours ago, DMC said:

Kennedy should have been fired after TLJ.  Not because of the quality of the film, but because it was clear she was a poor manager of the franchise.  She's the Jason Garrett of movie executives at this point.  Or (and this is a really big or), all this is really Disney's own doing, which is entirely possible.  But fuck if I know, don't care that much.  Someone should be fired though.

I think people forget how much relative bad will the prequels had generated and how skeptical everyone was about star wars having anything good come out again was. TFA had precisely one goal - to show that Disney could do star wars better than the prequels. And in that they succeeded massively. That's likely a reason they didnt have a concrete plan going into TFA - because they didnt have full confidence that star wars was going to work in that way. 

I agree that not having that hurt them tremendously, but the notion that they ran this incredible property into the ground when fuck all save shitty eu books and a couple of okay cartoons were all that was around before them is revisionist history. 

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14 minutes ago, kuenjato said:

I watched all of the films across a month before Avengers: Infinity War, and there is a consistency even in the first two phases; across the entire 20+ film serial, there is a consistency (in terms of narrative coherence) that is unmatched in cinema long-form serials to this point. Not to say the films are perfect, or there weren't mistakes, but there is pretty much inarguably a consistent long-term story arc envisioned and slowly dolled out across multiple films, even if confined to the end-credit blips. 

The issue is that said consistency was not particularly planned by anyone, certainly not across phases. Remember that vision sequence in age of ultron for thor? Nothing came of it. Thanos saying he'd have to do it himself....and then using the ebon guys to do everything. Thanos giving away a fucking infinity stone as the plotline for avengers! 

What they did do a good job of is referencing prior movies and respecting the characters and stories that had come before, but that was way less to do with planning and more to do with construction. And it is very much the case that IW and endgame are very well constructed and plotted, but the real beauty is none of the other movies are remotely important to have seen first or at all.

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5 hours ago, DMC said:

Kennedy should have been fired after TLJ.  Not because of the quality of the film, but because it was clear she was a poor manager of the franchise. 

I dunno - this doesn't really make that much sense to me. What was the 'poor management' at that point in your mind?

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Just now, Raja said:

I dunno - this doesn't really make that much sense to me. What was the 'poor management' at that point in your mind?

Yeah, the absurdly high critical acclaim doesnt seem to me to be "oh right we fucked up". I could see this sports radio hot take after Solo, or maybe after trevorrow got fired, but after tlj?

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

 Solo, or maybe after trevorrow got fired

Solo defo had some strange behind the scenes stuff going on, but I honestly lose no sleep over not seeing Trevorrow direct a star wars movie. Safety not guaranteed was decent - but every thing else that man has done has been mediocre at best and terrible in some cases, like Book of Henry - if people haven't seen the trailer for book of henry, I urge every one to do so,  because it is amazingly bad.

 

Edited by Raja

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