Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker (among other things, wink wink) SPOILERS

[Raja]

42 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion man

Again, after two very successful films come out, one receiving critical acclaim to the extent that TLJ did, it makes very little sense to fire the person in charge of the whole series but okay.

[Darth Richard II]

No, I'm done here.

[DMC]

Just now, Raja said:

Again, after two very successful films come out, one receiving critical acclaim to the extent that TLJ did, it makes very little sense to fire the person in charge of the whole series but okay.

Again, ok.  I.............disagree.

[Raja]

47 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

That's why we had stupid shit like that Thor bath in avengers 2.

 

I had totally forgotten about this and am 100 percent revisiting this scene on youtube.

[Kalbear]

18 minutes ago, DMC said:

You make a lot of declarative statements here, but I don't know what you're talking about. 

ETA:  Like, seriously @Kalbear is supposed to convince me of what exactly by a tweet that dude was frugal?

I hoped you'd read it. It really isn't hard to find and it's pretty clearly stated.

I guess I'd hope to convince you that prior to phase 3 perlmutter and the creative group had a LOT of control over where things were going and did dictate whole plots and whole story arcs and story hooks. Things like ragnarok, captain marvel, black panther's movie - they were not remotely part of the plan because perlmutter wouldn't permit them. 

Prior to 2015 the way it worked is that a writer would have to convince feige - who then would have to convince the creative group and perlmutter. That had a lot of effects.

Tying this back into star wars, Kathleen Kennedy was very much in the perlmutter role of controlling the entire system of everything and squelching any real creativity. Star Wars, oddly, is a property largely defined by its static universe. It is traditional and rigid. Star wars movies must have a certain look and feel and plot and arc, and there isn't much room to play there. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

Prior to 2015 the way it worked is that a writer would have to convince feige - who then would have to convince the creative group and perlmutter. That had a lot of effects.

Oh mercy.  Feige had a boss?!?  My oh my!  Like he doesn't have now, working at Disney.  My original objection was the assertion that Kevin Feige somehow "didn't have much say" before Perlmutter was sacked.  Now you're saying, what exactly?  He didn't have as much say as I thought?  Ok, you're still wrong, but sure!  You win your marginal victory you! 

I still think Kathleen Kennedy should be fired, which was the whole point of this discussion.  Haven't heard any arguments otherwise, which I'm open to.

[Kalbear]

5 minutes ago, DMC said:

Oh mercy.  Feige had a boss?!?  My oh my!  Like he doesn't have now, working at Disney.  My original objection was the assertion that Kevin Feige somehow "didn't have much say" before Perlmutter was sacked.  Now you're saying, what exactly?  He didn't have as much say as I thought?  Ok, you're still wrong, but sure!  You win your marginal victory you! 

I still think Kathleen Kennedy should be fired, which was the whole point of this discussion.  Haven't heard any arguments otherwise, which I'm open to.

I think you misread. The point was that feige didnt have final say. And the overarching thing didnt come from feige, nor did the phase plans - those were perlmutter and the creative group. After feige got full control he got to do, well, pretty much whatever. And it showed.

You asserted it was feige's plan all along, and not only is that not the case (avengers itself wasnt planned until much later), it wasnt even his plan. Thanos was introduced by Perlmutter, as an example. What we think of as the big plan was done far later, pretty much as part of the Thor, bp, and cm properties. 

Feige should get major credit for it. He and the Russos absolutely stuck the landing and did a great job bringing a whole lot of very disparate things back together. But the idea that this was some very well organized plan is just wishful thinking, and the plan itself was created from whole cloth in like 2 years. 

Now, where I agree is that feige had the control to collaborate with and largely shape that phase 3 plan, and work with the creators of thor, cm, bp and gotg to get things he wanted. He had a vision of sorts at that point. I dont think anyone had a vision of what they wanted from the new trilogy or the new stories, and essentially the only creative input was "it isn't star wars enough. "

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

And the overarching thing didnt come from feige, nor did the phase plans - those were perlmutter and the creative group. After feige got full control he got to do, well, pretty much whatever. And it showed.

Except I saw what I did on the screen.  I saw Sam Jackson at the end of Iron Man.  I saw Robert Downey commiserating with William Hurt at the end of the Incredible Hulk, and them roll with that, even though the Hulk didn't pay as much as they wanted.  I saw them plainly building to something far before 2015.  It was right there before my eyes.  And, considering Feige was involved with literally all of that, I think he deserves some credit.  I really don't give a shit who he had to answer to, because he's always going to have to answer to somebody.

[The Mother of The Others]

Uh, creative group = perlmutter = feige = a sense of direction

[Kalbear]

Apparently Whedon was the one who chose Thanos: 

 

Quote

a May 2012 interview, Whedon said that it was his decision to include Thanos in a post-credits scene, although the character is not identified in the film. "He for me is the most powerful and fascinating Marvel villain. He's the great grand daddy of the badasses and he's in love with Death and I just think that's so cute. 

 

[DMC]

Sure, Whedon chose Thanos.  At the end of a movie of what?  The integration of three main characters that had their own solo movies beforehand - not counting Hulk.  How ever did that happen?  Apparently, since it was 2012, under someone Feige wasn't able to convince to like money?  Or something?  I'm unclear on this?  Please explain.

[Darth Richard II]

Feige and Marvel had no idea Whedon had even shot that scene and were surprised at the premier when he showed up in the film. This is widely reported. Feige is also on record saying how the end credits scene of Incredible Hulk almost destroyed the MCU as a whole.

[DMC]

But..we still have Avengers.  You're never going to convince me of something that is anathema to reality.  It really does boil down to this guys.  You know why I know there was planning for Avengers?  Because I saw Avengers.  Get over yourselves.

[Darth Richard II]

But you're wrong. Objectively.  2 + 2 != 7.

[RumHam]

I'm going to post this again because it's more relevant that the current conversation. 

 

[Raja]

6 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I'm going to post this again because it's more relevant that the current conversation. 

 

This is my personal favourite

 

[DMC]

7 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

But you're wrong. Objectively.  2 + 2 != 7.

Until you actually explain what you're saying instead of just Ted Stevens-ing it, I'm afraid we're at an impasse.  So yeah, let's move on.

[Darth Richard II]

20 minutes ago, DMC said:

Until you actually explain what you're saying instead of just Ted Stevens-ing it, I'm afraid we're at an impasse.  So yeah, let's move on.

...

Feige did not have a lot of say in Phase 1 and 2

This has been shown. Many times.

You can continue to deny it all you want in here, it still won't change facts.

And, sorry, but you're the one screaming NO everytime someone brings up, you know, facts.

[Kalbear]

I didnt say they didnt plan avengers. That was part of the first wave, where they signed rdj to a 3 movie deal and smj to a 9 movie deal. There were some changes, but they had planned for a 2011 release. Then they got scarjo and pushed it to 2012.

So yes, the first avengers movie was basically set as soon as iron man did well. But beyond that? The infinity stones, thanos, the time travel, all of that? Entirely not remotely thought of yet. Heck, avengers has thanos hunting that he wants to woo death (like he does in the comic), and that obviously didnt happen. 

I'm really not sure what more to say. The earliest possible that the whole wrapping all 21 movies up into one big cohesive finale could have even had inklings of thought would be after avengers 2, because that's when they scrapped the norn possession thing thor goes through. The infinity stones got retconned (kind of stupidly) later. The tesseract was at one point a cosmic cube.

As far as I can tell Feige's plan was more about bringing in some characters at some points. Wanda and Peter were Joss choices; originally it was going to be captain marvel. Bucky was a Russo choice. Hulk was almost the civil war antagonist, even though no one knew where he was. It doesnt seem like a lot of this was plotted all that far in advance. 

 

[DMC]

Just now, Darth Richard II said:

Feige did not have a lot of say in Phase 1 and 2

This has been shown. Many times.

You can continue to deny it all you want in here, it still won't change facts.

And, sorry, but you're the one screaming NO everytime someone brings up, you know, facts.

Facts like "Phase 1" plainly building to Avengers with all three main characters?  Facts like introducing Johansson in Iron Man 2, and Renner in Thor, and putting Cap in ice?  Facts that are demonstrable to everybody as opposed to you just saying so without providing any explanation, let alone evidence?  Yeah, can't change dem facts.