Martin confirms Dany's coin lands good.

[Rose of Red Lake]

21 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

What happens after The Great Khaleesi shows them that the poison water is not only nothing to be feared/hated but is actually something useful that can be navigated?

Useful to conquer more territory in lands she wants them to conquer. It's pretty awful IMO. She should respect their beliefs. 

On 1/9/2020 at 9:45 AM, Cas Stark said:

I don't believe GRRM intends for Dany to be seen as a racist, casually or otherwise, he does intend to show the reader how 'alien' everything about this culture she has chosen to rule and rebuild feels to her. 

Oh I definitely think he does. To be accurate I'd call her an ethnic supremacist but... that's just racism dressed up in fancy jargon. Here's another example:

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“Khaleesi,” whispered Irri, “you must not touch the dead man. It is bad luck to touch the dead.”
“Unless you killed them yourself.” Jhiqui was bigger-boned than Irri, with wide hips and heavy breasts. “That is known.”
“It is known,” Irri agreed.
Dothraki were wise where horses were concerned, but could be utter fools about much else. They are only girls, besides. Her handmaids were of an age with her—women grown to look at them, with their black hair, copper skin, and almond-shaped eyes, but girls all the same. They had been given to her when she wed Khal Drogo.” - Daenerys, ADWD

So these are women of color who are the same age as Dany, but she views them as foolish girls. Not only that, she judges their entire culture as foolish for their superstitions. On top of this, Dany herself has superstitions of her own, that center mainly around her specialness and superiority (believing she can't get sick, believing that a comet in the sky is a sign just for her). In addition, the scene appears to be similar to Sansa calling the Tyrell girls "silly little girls," but Sansa was speaking of their individual innocence/naivety whereas Dany was speaking of an entire culture. Finally, Dany ends the scene thinking about how these people are her wedding gifts. I'm done making excuses for her and I think the author did intend to show her as a racist. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

There are a lot of traps with the Red Priests. Here's how I read those passages:

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“The dragons have come to carry her to glory.” - Haldon

“Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy” - Haldon

Trite fantasy novel phrasing + manic religious dogma = question it. Don't shut off your brain.

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“High Priest of the red temple in Volantis. Flame of Truth, Light of Wisdom, First Servant of the Lord of Light, Slave of R’hllor.”

Benerro's pompous titles. Who believes this b.s.? 

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“Benerro’s rantings will only serve to bring a savage wrath down upon his head.” - Qavo Nogarys

I love this. So Dany will probably burn Benerro as she burns down Volantis, haha. Qavo also says they're fighting with other people who hold different religions. We know GRRM isn't cool with religious supression.

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“What rantings?” the dwarf asked, toying with his rabble.
The Volantene waved a hand. “In Volantis, thousands of slaves and freedmen crowd the temple plaza every night to hear Benerro shriek of bleeding stars and a sword of fire that will cleanse the world. He has been preaching that Volantis will surely burn if the triarchs take up arms against the silver queen.”
“That’s a prophecy even I could make. Ah, supper.”

Exactly right, there's no magic here. If people are deferring to a religious nutcase to interpret basic political realities for them, they're in a cult. 

Also a "sword of fire cleansing the world" is a flowery way of saying Daenerys will turn everyone into a nice clean bowl of ashes.

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“In the streets, they call it the Red Messenger,” Varys said. “They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow.”

Well, they're right...after a fashion.

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“That Daenerys stands in peril. The dark eye has fallen upon her, and the minions of night are plotting her destruction, praying to their false gods in temples of deceit … conspiring at betrayal with godless outlanders …" Haldon Halfmaester had spoken of using the red priest to Young Griff’s advantage, Tyrion recalled. Now that he had seen and heard the man himself, that struck him as a very bad idea. He hoped that Griff had better sense. Some allies are more dangerous than enemies."

“The hairs on the back of Tyrion’s neck began to prickle. Prince Aegon will find no friend here. The red priest spoke of ancient prophecy, a prophecy that foretold the coming of a hero to deliver the world from darkness. One hero. Not two. Daenerys has dragons, Aegon does not. The dwarf did not need to be a prophet himself to foresee how Benerro and his followers might react to a second Targaryen.”

Tyrion is a skeptic, senses danger, and is talking sense here. He's aware of how these religious prophets stage themselves to manipulate the masses. The author's voice is coming through. 

The Red Priests will probably start calling Aegon the Minion of Night. After he's defeated, it's on to the next Enemy. Slaves in Essos are being manipulated into thinking that people who they don't even know, on a continent they know nothing about, are their enemies. So in effect, those who root for the beautiful Silver Queen are on the side of light and good. All who oppose her are dark and evil. Next it could be the Starks as Minions of Ice or whatever. That is a HUGE tyranny assist. 

It's actually quite brilliant to have these dark/light fantasy novel tropes coming from the mouths of characters who take it literally, because then we can figure out who is full of it and who isn't. 

Even more worrisome, if Dany learned she had an entire cult of millions who stand behind her who uncritically cheer on every action she takes, it would cause her ego to grow to supernova proportions. I can see how she would develop into the Third Reich of the Dragon.

Other Red Priests don't offer much clarity either. Mel and Thoros have more complexity, than Benerro who is just the High Sparrow of Essos. But even Thoros has become a zealot about the Stoneheart cult. Mel is right about the Others but she's also wrong about everything else. 

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

There are a lot of traps with the Red Priests. Here's how I read those passages:

Trite fantasy novel phrasing + manic religious dogma = question it. Don't shut off your brain.

LOL, nobody in their right mind buys the prophetic/religious/theological shit of the red priests. But that doesn't mean they won't be useful with their very real magics.

And Dany has never allowed herself to be defined by the opinons of others - whatever the red priests think of her is not going to be all that relevant to her.

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Benerro's pompous titles. Who believes this b.s.?

How is his title anymore pompous and different than any of the other presumptuous titles?

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I love this. So Dany will probably burn Benerro as she burns down Volantis, haha. Qavo also says they're fighting with other people who hold different religions. We know GRRM isn't cool with religious supression.

Qavo Nogarys is pretty much expert in nothing. The Volantene slaves will deal with Volantis, not Daenerys. The Volantenes who deserve to survive (i.e. the Volantene slaves) will join her as will enlightened Volatenes like the Widow of the Waterfront (who is an ex-slave).

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Exactly right, there's no magic here. If people are deferring to a religious nutcase to interpret basic political realities for them, they're in a cult. 

LOL, Tyrion is a little bit overconfident. The Volantenes can still crush Dany and her people with ease if their tiger soldiers remain loyal to them. Dany and her pet dragons are no danger to Volantis.

Benerro connects certain contents of his religion with Daenerys. Whether he wants her to do specific things or whether he will just push his followers into doing whatever Dany wants because she is the savior we do not know. However, his and Moqorro's decision to side with Dany without ever knowing her or talking to her is sort of a giveaway that they won't to use her for their own ends (if they wanted to do that, they would only side with her when they knew she would meet their demands).

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Also a "sword of fire cleansing the world" is a flowery way of saying Daenerys will turn everyone into a nice clean bowl of ashes.

And because a religious nutcase says that this is a guarantee that this will happen, yes?

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Tyrion is a skeptic, senses danger, and is talking sense here. He's aware of how these religious prophets stage themselves to manipulate the masses. The author's voice is coming through. 

We know that there is truth behind those prophecies. The fiery sword will cleanse the world off the ice demons, not other people. This is not invented nonsense prophecy stuff going back to schemes of power-hungry witches doing eugenics (as it is in Dune).

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The Red Priests will probably start calling Aegon the Minion of Night. After he's defeated, it's on to the next Enemy. Slaves in Essos are being manipulated into thinking that people who they don't even know, on a continent they know nothing about, are their enemies. So in effect, those who root for the beautiful Silver Queen are on the side of light and good. All who oppose her are dark and evil. Next it could be the Starks as Minions of Ice or whatever. That is a HUGE tyranny assist.

Why should the red priests even care about Westeros? For them, for the Volantenes the civilization is identical with Essos. Westeros is savage backwater. If they will tell Dany anything they will tell her to ignore Westeros and everything that happens there and focus on the lands that matter.

And why they should paint another Targaryen as an enemy I don't see. Tyrion thinks people might get confused by Aegon - but that's not necessarily the case. The Targaryen prophecy we know talks about the dragon having three heads.

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Even more worrisome, if Dany learned she had an entire cult of millions who stand behind her who uncritically cheer on every action she takes, it would cause her ego to grow to supernova proportions. I can see how she would develop into the Third Reich of the Dragon.

Something like that will be necessary to defeat the Others. If people don't follow their leaders without question, sacrificing people and dying for the cause everybody will run away to Dorne or the Summer Isles, and the Others will win.

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Other Red Priests don't offer much clarity either. Mel and Thoros have more complexity, than Benerro who is just the High Sparrow of Essos. But even Thoros has become a zealot about the Stoneheart cult. Mel is right about the Others but she's also wrong about everything else. 

Is she now? How do you know? She is likely going to be right about the fact that there will come a day when the sun is no longer going to show. And what will people then do? Mock religious nutcases? No, they will do everything they say because they are the ones who have power in this world.

We have no idea what kind of guy Benerro is - we only heard about his public sermons, not him personally. Moqorro is doing Benerro's bidding, and he seems to know what he is doing.

Bottom line is - red priest magics work and their god might exist. The Seven and the old gods either do not exist or are not divine.

Chances are most of Westeros is going to convert to R'hllorism before the story is over - because the red priests and their magic will help the people against the Others and winter. Nobody else will be able to do that.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

 

So these are women of color who are the same age as Dany, but she views them as foolish girls. Not only that, she judges their entire culture as foolish for their superstitions. On top of this, Dany herself has superstitions of her own, that center mainly around her specialness and superiority (believing she can't get sick, believing that a comet in the sky is a sign just for her). In addition, the scene appears to be similar to Sansa calling the Tyrell girls "silly little girls," but Sansa was speaking of their individual innocence/naivety whereas Dany was speaking of an entire culture. Finally, Dany ends the scene thinking about how these people are her wedding gifts. I'm done making excuses for her and I think the author did intend to show her as a racist. 

So, Daenerys is empathising with a murdered Unsullied.  What a monster!

Even the devil can quote Scripture when it suits her.

[Rose of Red Lake]

53 minutes ago, SeanF said:

So, Daenerys is empathising with a murdered Unsullied.  What a monster!

Even the devil can quote Scripture when it suits her.

For every scene of empathy there's another one of supremacy, sometimes thrown in to the same scene like that one. This mirrors GRRM's views on historical figures. Like when he talked about Woodrow Wilson being a racist who wanted to end war. It's the same thing. 

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

For every scene of empathy there's another one of supremacy, sometimes thrown in to the same scene like that one. This mirrors GRRM's views on historical figures. Like when he talked about Woodrow Wilson being a racist who wanted to end war. It's the same thing. 

Sure.  In your eyes.  Try to end slavery = evil monster.   

Martin does not do Dark Lords.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Just now, SeanF said:

Sure.  In your eyes.  Try to end slavery = evil monster.   

Martin does not do Dark Lords.

Don't be Nikki Haley. She just used the same logic this week, calling Democrats terrorist lovers who mourned Soleimani's death. Calling your debate opponent a slavery apologist is a desperate jab people make when they're losing an argument. 

I think Dany talking herself OUT of being a stateswoman and builder and INTO being a conqueror and a destroyer is tragic, especially since she does have it in her to be a good queen when she tries. But at the end of ADWD, it's the second time she's chosen "blood of the dragon" bullshit, like she did when she pushed Drogo to invade for her. She's rationalizing her desire to move on to next conquest, to become more and more like a conquering dragon acting on impulse. You don't have to be a Dark Lord to be slowly corrupted by power, when there are many people like that in real life...

[Rose of Red Lake]

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

But, you are an apologist for slavery.   If the cap fits, wear it.

I laid out an argument for her supremacist thoughts about the Dothraki. You can only responded with childish insults attacking posters. Real cool. 

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I laid out an argument for her supremacist thoughts about the Dothraki. You can only responded with childish insults attacking posters. Real cool. 

The truth is something which you find to be painful.

As posters have said upthread, people reveal a lot about their real-world views, when they discuss Daenerys' anti-slavery campaign.

[Lord Varys]

33 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Sure.  In your eyes.  Try to end slavery = evil monster.   

Martin does not do Dark Lords.

Martin also doesn't do nice people who are secretly fascists whose evilness has to be decoded by internet users with some sort of agenda ;-).

If George does do anything he actually humanizes people the more you get to know them, make them more sympathetic even if they were introduced as villains or unsympathetic characters - that's the entire plot in Dying of the Light, it is what he does with Theon and Jaime and Cersei and Melisandre.

The idea we are going to get a character whose good actions are supposed to be seen as evil and whose story builds up to a point where she becomes evil for basically no reason is pretty stupid.

22 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think Dany talking herself OUT of being a stateswoman and builder and INTO being a conqueror and a destroyer is tragic, especially since she does have it in her to be a good queen when she tries. But at the end of ADWD, it's the second time she's chosen "blood of the dragon" bullshit, like she did when she pushed Drogo to invade for her. She's rationalizing her desire to move on to next conquest, to become more and more like a conquering dragon acting on impulse. You don't have to be a Dark Lord to be slowly corrupted by power, when there are many people like that in real life...

Dany was a shitty queen in ADwD. She closed the eyes against the plots around her and gave in to the demands of the slavers again and again - people who would like nothing better than to kill her and her people.

Her failure is not to embrace sterner policies in the end, but her attempt to deviate from her destiny in the first place. Settling down in Meereen was a mistake. Nothing in Dany's story up that indicates her being corrupted by power. In fact, it shows the opposite. She is far too timid to use the power she has - which led to the continuation of the war in Slaver's Bay. She was Neville Chamberlain dealing with the Hitlers from Yunkai and Meereen - or King Aenys dealing with the High Septon and the Faith Militant. The Yunkai'i continued the war because they smelled weakness, just as the Meereense started to plot against Dany because they realized she didn't have the stomach to attack them.

And she pushing Drogo to invade Westeros for her? That was her duty as last scion of House Targaryen. All her brothers were gone, so it fell to her convince her husband to secure the birthright of her unborn son. She wanted the Iron Throne for Rhaego, not herself.

She acts completely within the framework of the aristocratic customs of this world - if your family is attacked, you strike back and destroy your enemies, no matter whether they were attacked for good or for bad reasons.

If Dany's ambitions are wrong, so are all the ambitions of the people plunging Westeros into war in ASoIaF - Robb going to war is a sign that he is a mad destroyer and conqueror (which he actually was, he helped to destroy both the North and the Riverlands), Tywin defending the honor of House Lannister and his weakling father was wrong, Robert and Ned avenging the Starks and defending themselves against the Mad King was wrong, Stannis and Renly had no right whatsoever to fight against Joffrey, etc.

But we never see you criticize any of those actions. One wonders why that is...

None of those people did anything what they did to save people - but the entire point of Dany's campaign in Slaver's Bay is to save people from oppression. She could have just taken Drogon and left Astapor to the Good Masters - after all, she had her Unsullied, so why bother butchering the Astapori elite? Instead she chose to destroy their rule to free the people there - she gained nothing from that, but the people she freed got their lives (back) and a chance to happiness outside of bondage. That the most incredible act of selflessness we get in this entire book series. Nobody else cares about the well-being of complete strangers - the least of all the majority of the rotten aristocratic elite of Westeros.

[Lord Varys]

Regarding to the slavery issue I stumbled on the very quote from Fevre Dream that can be read as George's very own comment both on slavery in the US and, being written about 20 before ASoS, also as a comment on slavery in Essos (especially, of course, in the cities of Slaver's Bay).

Note the context of this quote. Abner Marsh, the protagonist of the books saying this to his black cook, a former slave he freed after he bought him, isn't an abolitionist. He is just a steamboat captain doing his trade in many slaver states and he usually doesn't want to antagonize his customers (or have trouble in general). But just before he says that, his vampire friend told him the history of his race (the vampires in the book are a humanoid race secretly living beside humanity, not undead monsters), pointing out to him that his people drink blood and kill because they must, because 'the red thirst' has them in their grips once a month, and they cannot help themselves. But nobody forced humanity to enslave other human beings. This apparently has a tremendous effect on his point of view on the slavery issue:

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“You know I never held much with slavery, even if I never done much against it neither. I would of, but those damned abolitionists were such Bible-thumpers. Only I been thinkin’, and it seems to me maybe they was right after all. You can’t just go . . . usin’ another kind of people, like they wasn’t people at all. Know what I mean? Got to end, sooner or later. Better if it ends peaceful, but it’s got to end even if it has to be with fire and blood, you see? Maybe that’s what them abolitionists been sayin’ all along. You try to be reasonable, that’s only right, but if it don’t work, you got to be ready. Some things is just wrong. They got to be ended.”

The foreshadows both the American Civil War and Daenerys Targaryen's war to end slavery in Essos.

And it is quite clear that George doesn't think it is not worth killing and dying for the goal to end slavery. Far the opposite, actually.

[BlackLightning]

@Rose of Red Lake

I honestly want to know what  your issue with Daenerys is. Because it's clearly not founded upon what's in the text.

On 1/10/2020 at 12:27 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

“Khaleesi,” whispered Irri, “you must not touch the dead man. It is bad luck to touch the dead.”
“Unless you killed them yourself.” Jhiqui was bigger-boned than Irri, with wide hips and heavy breasts. “That is known.”
“It is known,” Irri agreed.
Dothraki were wise where horses were concerned, but could be utter fools about much else. They are only girls, besides. Her handmaids were of an age with her—women grown to look at them, with their black hair, copper skin, and almond-shaped eyes, but girls all the same. They had been given to her when she wed Khal Drogo.” - Daenerys, ADWD

 

On 1/10/2020 at 12:27 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

So these are women of color who are the same age as Dany, but she views them as foolish girls. Not only that, she judges their entire culture as foolish for their superstitions. On top of this, Dany herself has superstitions of her own, that center mainly around her specialness and superiority (believing she can't get sick, believing that a comet in the sky is a sign just for her). In addition, the scene appears to be similar to Sansa calling the Tyrell girls "silly little girls," but Sansa was speaking of their individual innocence/naivety whereas Dany was speaking of an entire culture. Finally, Dany ends the scene thinking about how these people are her wedding gifts. I'm done making excuses for her and I think the author did intend to show her as a racist. 

First of all, she says the Dothraki "were wise where horses are concerned but could be utter fools about much else." Not only is she talking about the Dothraki people in general as a society, but when she says that they "could be utter fools about much else" that means that Dany is saying that the Dothraki have the ability or habit of being utter fools about things that don't have to do with horses. That's like if I said that my classmate is a mathematical genius but her handwriting is illegible and she knows fuck all about grammar.

Besides, the emphasis there is could which makes Dany's whole statement conditional. Conditional? Conditional as in Dany is saying that the Dothraki CAN SOMETIMES be utter fools things that don't have to do with horses and that they CAN SOMETIMES can be wise about things that don't have to do with horses. The word "could" is all about potential. As in potential to be something bad or the potential to be something good.

And speaking of besides, we have the keyword of besides which means that - like myself - Dany has not only moved on to a completely different thought but that she is dismissing the previous thought as irrelevant in light of the current thought.

Do you know what that means? That means this: Dany is saying that Irri and Jhiqui are just girls (i.e. girls=female children or female humans who have to become fully-developed) who don't know what they are talking about.

Dany is pivoting from an assessment of Dothraki society based upon what Irri and Jhiqui said to an assessment of Irri and Jhiqui based upon what Irri and Jhiqui just said. Which is a wise and good thing to do because you shouldn't describe and prescribe entire group of people based upon what two people who happen to be two parts of that gigantic group of people just said. Anyways, back to what Dany is saying about Irri and Jhiqui. She uses the word "besides" to close the door on her original thought (The Dothraki could be utter fools about much else if it doesn't have to do with horses) and to pivot to a more important current thought (Irri and Jhiqui, whom are providing me insight about the Dothraki, are only girls). Nowhere in the text does Daenerys use the adjective "foolish" in reference to Irri and Jhiqui.

She is not calling them fools, she called (past tense because the word besides moves the "the Dothraki could be foolish" statement aside and leaves it in the past) the Dothraki fools. Why? A quick rewind through the text shows that, according to Dothraki culture, it is bad luck to touch the dead if you have not personally killed them. That is the statement that triggers Daenerys into saying that the Dothraki COULD BE FOOLISH about a lot of different things.

Okay, so Daenerys implied that that particular Dothraki superstition foolish (which it is). That brings us to my third point: Dany sees the fact that she too once was a girl and still is a girl.

She first says that they are an age with her. Meaning that Dany sees that she, Irri and Jhiqui are all around the same age. Since Dany has lumped herself in with them, she recognizes that they all look like women but they are not all women. Sure, she's pointing out Irri and Jhiqui's physical bodies specifically but it is implied in the text that Dany is well aware of their similarities physically. We all know that Dany considered herself (and truly was) a girl when she married Khal Drogo.

I'm a bit lost at why you think Dany is racist because she views these (your words not mine; if someone is racist it is never about just these it's about all) women of color (I'm sorry but didn't Dany just call Irri and Jhiqui girls and not women) as foolish (she never called them foolish) girls (the only part you got right). Am I racist for viewing my constantly-drunken college-aged white male acquaintances who also happen to be apart of a fraternity as foolish boys?

This is where your maddening hypocrisy starts to show. But more on that later, this whole wedding gift comment makes no sense. Because Daenerys does not refer to them as her wedding gifts. Daenerys simply states that "they had been given to her when she wed Khal Drogo." Just because something is given to someone, it doesn't mean it is a gift. A police officer can give you a speeding ticket? Is the speeding ticket a gift? Your boss can give you a team of people and tell you that you are now their leader. Is your boss commodifying these people? An insurance company can write you a blank check that allows you to get a rental car after your previous car was totaled in an accident? Is the insurance company giving you an early Christmas gift?

No. When Daenerys wed Drogo, she became his khaleesi and thus achieved a position of authority and power. In this new position of authority and power, she was given handmaidens and bloodriders. They were not gifts, they were something that she as a khaleesi is owed so that she may not be dishonored and that her duties can be better fulfilled.

Back to the hypocrisy: you just brought up the fact that Sansa calls the Tyrells girls both "silly" and "little." But then you turn around and say that Sansa is only speaking of their individual innocence/naïveté. But in the same series of muscle spasms we call typing, you deny Daenerys of what you have granted Sansa. The text shows us that Daenerys' mind is not only capable of working faster than Sansa's mind (many would say that makes Daenerys smarter than Sansa) but that Daenerys' mind is also more agile than Sansa's mind. Why? Because:

1. Daenerys can take what Irri and Jhiqui just said and recognize it that they are talking about Dothraki culture
2. Daenerys can process what Irri and Jhiqui are saying and thereby make a conditional assessment of the Dothraki people
3. Daenerys can dismiss or set aside her own assessment almost immediately and move on to a deeper, truer assessment of Irri and Jhiqui as people
4. Daenerys can then apply it to herself and make an observation of how she connects and relates to Irri and Jhiqui and how the three of them are not that much different after all

Did Sansa arrive at the same sort of conclusion as Daenerys did at the end. Because at the end of it, it is implied (and later confirmed) that Daenerys not only still views herself as a girl (like Irri and Jhiqui) but that she herself is foolish (unlike Irri and Jhiqui). The text itself tells you that the only person Daenerys calls "a foolish girl" is herself. Ethnic supremacists or whatever fancy term you want to label Daenerys as are typically not hard on themselves or people of their same ethnicity. Typically, they are lenient on themselves and their ethnic group and hard on everyone else who doesn't fit in with their ethnic group.

So what really is the issue?

I'm afraid to say that either you need to work on your reading comprehension or that you are letting your biases and personal feelings blind you in regards to the character of Daenerys Targaryen...or both.

[Rose of Red Lake]

7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

@Rose of Red Lake

I honestly want to know what  your issue with Daenerys is. Because it's clearly not founded upon what's in the text.

 

First of all, she says the Dothraki "were wise where horses are concerned but could be utter fools about much else." Not only is she talking about the Dothraki people in general as a society, but when she says that they "could be utter fools about much else" that means that Dany is saying that the Dothraki have the ability or habit of being utter fools about things that don't have to do with horses. That's like if I said that my classmate is a mathematical genius but her handwriting is illegible and she knows fuck all about grammar.

Besides, the emphasis there is could which makes Dany's whole statement conditional. Conditional? Conditional as in Dany is saying that the Dothraki CAN SOMETIMES be utter fools things that don't have to do with horses and that they CAN SOMETIMES can be wise about things that don't have to do with horses. The word "could" is all about potential. As in potential to be something bad or the potential to be something good.

And speaking of besides, we have the keyword of besides which means that - like myself - Dany has not only moved on to a completely different thought but that she is dismissing the previous thought as irrelevant in light of the current thought.

Do you know what that means? That means this: Dany is saying that Irri and Jhiqui are just girls (i.e. girls=female children or female humans who have to become fully-developed) who don't know what they are talking about.

Dany is pivoting from an assessment of Dothraki society based upon what Irri and Jhiqui said to an assessment of Irri and Jhiqui based upon what Irri and Jhiqui just said. Which is a wise and good thing to do because you shouldn't describe and prescribe entire group of people based upon what two people who happen to be two parts of that gigantic group of people just said. Anyways, back to what Dany is saying about Irri and Jhiqui. She uses the word "besides" to close the door on her original thought (The Dothraki could be utter fools about much else if it doesn't have to do with horses) and to pivot to a more important current thought (Irri and Jhiqui, whom are providing me insight about the Dothraki, are only girls). Nowhere in the text does Daenerys use the adjective "foolish" in reference to Irri and Jhiqui.

She is not calling them fools, she called (past tense because the word besides moves the "the Dothraki could be foolish" statement aside and leaves it in the past) the Dothraki fools. Why? A quick rewind through the text shows that, according to Dothraki culture, it is bad luck to touch the dead if you have not personally killed them. That is the statement that triggers Daenerys into saying that the Dothraki COULD BE FOOLISH about a lot of different things.

Okay, so Daenerys implied that that particular Dothraki superstition foolish (which it is). That brings us to my third point: Dany sees the fact that she too once was a girl and still is a girl.

She first says that they are an age with her. Meaning that Dany sees that she, Irri and Jhiqui are all around the same age. Since Dany has lumped herself in with them, she recognizes that they all look like women but they are not all women. Sure, she's pointing out Irri and Jhiqui's physical bodies specifically but it is implied in the text that Dany is well aware of their similarities physically. We all know that Dany considered herself (and truly was) a girl when she married Khal Drogo.

I'm a bit lost at why you think Dany is racist because she views these (your words not mine; if someone is racist it is never about just these it's about all) women of color (I'm sorry but didn't Dany just call Irri and Jhiqui girls and not women) as foolish (she never called them foolish) girls (the only part you got right). Am I racist for viewing my constantly-drunken college-aged white male acquaintances who also happen to be apart of a fraternity as foolish boys?

This is where your maddening hypocrisy starts to show. But more on that later, this whole wedding gift comment makes no sense. Because Daenerys does not refer to them as her wedding gifts. Daenerys simply states that "they had been given to her when she wed Khal Drogo." Just because something is given to someone, it doesn't mean it is a gift. A police officer can give you a speeding ticket? Is the speeding ticket a gift? Your boss can give you a team of people and tell you that you are now their leader. Is your boss commodifying these people? An insurance company can write you a blank check that allows you to get a rental car after your previous car was totaled in an accident? Is the insurance company giving you an early Christmas gift?

No. When Daenerys wed Drogo, she became his khaleesi and thus achieved a position of authority and power. In this new position of authority and power, she was given handmaidens and bloodriders. They were not gifts, they were something that she as a khaleesi is owed so that she may not be dishonored and that her duties can be better fulfilled.

Back to the hypocrisy: you just brought up the fact that Sansa calls the Tyrells girls both "silly" and "little." But then you turn around and say that Sansa is only speaking of their individual innocence/naïveté. But in the same series of muscle spasms we call typing, you deny Daenerys of what you have granted Sansa. The text shows us that Daenerys' mind is not only capable of working faster than Sansa's mind (many would say that makes Daenerys smarter than Sansa) but that Daenerys' mind is also more agile than Sansa's mind. Why? Because:

1. Daenerys can take what Irri and Jhiqui just said and recognize it that they are talking about Dothraki culture
2. Daenerys can process what Irri and Jhiqui are saying and thereby make a conditional assessment of the Dothraki people
3. Daenerys can dismiss or set aside her own assessment almost immediately and move on to a deeper, truer assessment of Irri and Jhiqui as people
4. Daenerys can then apply it to herself and make an observation of how she connects and relates to Irri and Jhiqui and how the three of them are not that much different after all

Did Sansa arrive at the same sort of conclusion as Daenerys did at the end. Because at the end of it, it is implied (and later confirmed) that Daenerys not only still views herself as a girl (like Irri and Jhiqui) but that she herself is foolish (unlike Irri and Jhiqui). The text itself tells you that the only person Daenerys calls "a foolish girl" is herself. Ethnic supremacists or whatever fancy term you want to label Daenerys as are typically not hard on themselves or people of their same ethnicity. Typically, they are lenient on themselves and their ethnic group and hard on everyone else who doesn't fit in with their ethnic group.

So what really is the issue?

I'm afraid to say that either you need to work on your reading comprehension or that you are letting your biases and personal feelings blind you in regards to the character of Daenerys Targaryen...or both.

Sorry, I'm not really following what you're saying--are you making the argument that Dany thinks she's a young girl so this proves how much she respects the Dothraki? That's not really what is going on in this passage . .  . 

Dany thinks they are superstitious fools (this isn't the only example), she thinks about their different facial features in the same breath when she thinks they're dumb and immature. Then she thinks they were "given to her," to remind herself what is hers by rights (because that's another phrase that comes up constantly). Later, she chides them that Rhakaro is hers as well--she's always talking about what is owed to her. I really can't in good faith make excuses for her. It's racism. She consistently treats Dothraki like shit on her shoes. Lurking in the background is also Targaryens' obsession with racial blood purity and supremacy as the "best" people to ever rule Westeros (an ideology which also characterized one of the most murderous regimes in our own recent history). Dany's supremacist thoughts about her Dothraki bloodriders and handmaidens illustrates how she can easily make anyone inferior to her. These thoughts are what lead to violence and in the worst case scenario, genocide. These ideologies about the Dothraki inform the tyrant she became. She was an abuse victim with a very sad backstory, who did not break through the cycle of abuse, and inflicted it on others.

So what do I have against Dany? Probably the fact that I knew she'd always turn Westeros into a new Summerhall. Again, I don't like tyrants, whether fictional or in real life, or their crypto-fascist supporters. 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

This is where your maddening hypocrisy starts to show. But more on that later, this whole wedding gift comment makes no sense. Because Daenerys does not refer to them as her wedding gifts. Daenerys simply states that "they had been given to her when she wed Khal Drogo." Just because something is given to someone, it doesn't mean it is a gift. A police officer can give you a speeding ticket? Is the speeding ticket a gift? Your boss can give you a team of people and tell you that you are now their leader. Is your boss commodifying these people? An insurance company can write you a blank check that allows you to get a rental car after your previous car was totaled in an accident? Is the insurance company giving you an early Christmas gift?

Agreeing with most of what you said, but here I'd like to clarify that Irri, Jhiqui and Doreah were all slaves given to Daenerys as wedding gifts. Drogo gave her the Dothraki girls, if I'm not mistaken, and Viserys/Illyrio gave her Doreah.

But that is, of course, completely irrelevant at the end of AGoT when Dany frees all the slaves in her new khalasar. Irri and Jhiqui are free Dothraki girls now, serving her because they want to, not because they have to.

In fact pretty much none of Dany's people have to stay with her, she made that clear a number of times.

22 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany thinks they are superstitious fools (this isn't the only example), she thinks about their different facial features in the same breath when she thinks they're dumb and immature. 

They actually are superstitious fools and they at least seem dumb and immature.

22 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Then she thinks they were "given to her," to remind herself what is hers by rights (because that's another phrase that comes up constantly). 

That is your own silly interpretation. If I remind myself that something was given to me this doesn't mean I also remind myself/tell myself that this thing is mine by right. And nobody does Dany ever say her Dothraki followers are 'hers by right'.

Her idea that the Iron Throne is hers by right is a correct assessment of things from her perspective and is in accordance with all the customs of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. Ousted nobility and royalty are not obliged to meekly accept that fact. Bran the Dispossessed also thinks Winterfell is still his home when he runs away and goes into exile beyond the Wall - is he wrong in thinking he as a Stark has a claim to Winterfell and the North, to his childhood home, the castle and lands of his family since time immemorial?

22 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I really can't in good faith make excuses for her. It's racism. She consistently treats Dothraki like shit on her shoes. Lurking in the background is also Targaryens' obsession with racial blood purity and supremacy as the "best" people to ever rule Westeros (an ideology which also characterized one of the most murderous regimes in our own recent history). Dany's supremacist thoughts about her Dothraki bloodriders and handmaidens illustrates how she can easily make anyone inferior to her. These thoughts are what lead to violence and in the worst case scenario, genocide. These ideologies about the Dothraki inform the tyrant she became. She was an abuse victim with a very sad backstory, who did not break through the cycle of abuse, and inflicted it on others.

LOL, you are using racist stereotypes here. You are collectively declaring all Targaryens to people rather than a family of individuals, and pretend they were all obessed 'with racial blood purity and supremacy' - which they were not, as you should and would know if you actually read the books properly (which you clearly did not). Targaryen incest is not based on racist ideology. It is a magical thing and a power preservation thing - but unlike the deluded morons in the real world who married their sisters and cousins for generations because they thought they were a better race, having blue blood, etc. (which is one of the roots of modern racism, of course) - the Targaryens simply are a very special magical family. That is just a fact within the story. Their incest is not based simply on invented ideological shit but actually has an empirical background. If George wanted to go with your imagery and clichéd concepts the Targaryens wouldn't have the kind of reason for their incest they have.

You don't understand the way Martin writes, and you don't care for nuance and complexity. You just want to hate a fictional character for basically no reason anyone but you seems to understand.

[Agnessa Schizoid]

8 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

So what do I have against Dany? Probably the fact that I knew she'd always turn Westeros into a new Summerhall. Again, I don't like tyrants, whether fictional or in real life, or their crypto-fascist supporters. 

But you like slavery better? Because that's what it sounds like.

It's pretty funny to judge harshly a person for not respecting Dothraki superstition (and that's what it is) when you don't like them trying to stop a form of slavery where children are killed routinely and openly as means of production or just for fun. Putting an end to something like that should be anyone's top goal, by any means necessary. Those are weird priorities, I am just saying.

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, Agnessa Schizoid said:

But you like slavery better? Because that's what it sounds like.

It's pretty funny to judge harshly a person for not respecting Dothraki superstition (and that's what it is) when you don't like them trying to stop a form of slavery where children are killed routinely and openly as means of production or just for fun. Putting an end to something like that should be anyone's top goal, by any means necessary. Those are weird priorities, I am just saying.

Plato thought a tyrant would free slaves, in order to gain supporters, and oppress free citizens.  It's probably not an opinion that has aged well.

[Agnessa Schizoid]

 

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Plato thought a tyrant would free slaves, in order to gain supporters, and oppress free citizens.  It's probably not an opinion that has aged well.

Heh, he also thought women are obviously inferior to men, so yeah.

[SeanF]

18 minutes ago, Agnessa Schizoid said:

 

Heh, he also thought women are obviously inferior to men, so yeah.

Plato's views on women were comparatively enlightened for his times.  Aristotle took the view that no woman was sufficiently intelligent to benefit from his teachings.  Plato took the view that while most women were obviously less intelligent than men, there were rare exceptions who he would take on as pupils. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

3 hours ago, Agnessa Schizoid said:

But you like slavery better? Because that's what it sounds like.

It's pretty funny to judge harshly a person for not respecting Dothraki superstition (and that's what it is) when you don't like them trying to stop a form of slavery where children are killed routinely and openly as means of production or just for fun. Putting an end to something like that should be anyone's top goal, by any means necessary. Those are weird priorities, I am just saying.

Who the hell *likes* slavery. I just dont go on and on about the evils of human ownership because the topic is about Dany becoming a tyrant. The story is also about Westeros and everything else outside of that only matters as it affects Westeros, this is literally the author telling us to focus more on Dany's psychological state and less on the evils of Kraznyz types. So no I'm not going to go on an on about what human goblins the slave masters are. It's a waste of time, obvious, and uninteresting.

Since I believe the seeds are there in the books for Dany oppressing others I'm highlighting them. Sure, people will whine that they didnt see it coming just like they did in the show, but I won't be caught off guard. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

3 hours ago, Agnessa Schizoid said:

It's pretty funny to judge harshly a person for not respecting Dothraki superstition (and that's what it is) when you don't like them trying to stop a form of slavery where children are killed routinely and openly as means of production or just for fun.

Because the discussion wasnt "criticize the dothraki for slavery" it was Dany's hypocrisy. She has her own superstitions too, like believing she cant get sick because she's a dragon and looking at comets to decide what to do. But these are of course real and the Dothraki's are just dumb savage talk?

Dany is arrogant and culturally insensitive, and has shades of her brother in these thoughts.