How much did Ned care about Lyanna?

[HexMachina]

I’d like to add that even if Robert eventually had married Lyanna, what we are told of his nature suggests any interest would be fleeting. Isn’t there a quote somewhere to the effect of Robert falling in love with them (a woman) at night and forgetting their name by morning or something? And we see this with Mya’s mother where we are told he remains interested in Mya long after he grows tired of her mother.

Imo Lyanna is on such a pedestal for Robert because she is ‘the one that got away.’ He never ‘had’ her so he can build her up as whatever he wants. But to me, all indications suggest Robert would have grown tired of Lyanna over time just as he seems to with every other woman he ever bedded. Of course, she could be the exception to the general trend, but based on what we’ve seen suggests not

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I’d like to add that even if Robert eventually had married Lyanna, what we are told of his nature suggests any interest would be fleeting. Isn’t there a quote somewhere to the effect of Robert falling in love with them (a woman) at night and forgetting their name by morning or something? And we see this with Mya’s mother where we are told he remains interested in Mya long after he grows tired of her mother.

Imo Lyanna is on such a pedestal for Robert because she is ‘the one that got away.’ He never ‘had’ her so he can build her up as whatever he wants. But to me, all indications suggest Robert would have grown tired of Lyanna over time just as he seems to with every other woman he ever bedded. Of course, she could be the exception to the general trend, but based on what we’ve seen suggests not

Yeah, anything is possible but this is my take on it. I don't think Lyanna (or any woman for that matter) could have ever lived up to Roberts expectations. 

[frenin]

14 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I have my doubts that Robert's "desired outcome" would actually have ended up being the thing he desired. He didn't know or understand Lyanna as a person at all, as Ned flat-out tells him (albeit long after her death). There's a reason why the author chose to never depict a single interaction between Robert and Lyanna and even on the one occasion where we know they were in the same place at the same time (at Harrenhal), Robert chose to spend his time drinking with his male buddies instead of talking or dancing with Lyanna.

Robert's idolization of Lyanna did not represent something real that he engaged in in good faith. She was a fantasy of his that existed only in his imagination. Making a life with the actual person she was would quickly have disabused him of that imagined version. And then where would Robert be, if he had to deal with the real person Lyanna was rather than the ideal he wanted and thought her to be? He would not have been living his desired outcome, of that I'm pretty sure.

I have my doubts too but tbh, people take as word Ned's word  when he himself uses it as an unreliable narrator, Ned says what he says because he thinks Cersei just told him to not enter  the melee not that she embarassed  him in front of court.

We don't know what Robert's fantasy of Lyanna was prior the war and her death, only in what it has become after 15 years of him being him, we know that he was fond of her and  desired her prior the war and  that he allegedly love her, hardly to be disabuse by something that only comes to your mind after everything starts  to fall. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

I have my doubts too but tbh, people take as word Ned's word  when he himself uses it as an unreliable narrator, Ned says what he says because he thinks Cersei just told him to not enter  the melee not that she embarassed  him in front of court.

I don't see any reason to believe Ned is an unreliable narrator here. Robert says Lyanna would never have done that and Ned replies that Robert doesn't really know what Lyanna would have done or not done; Ned understands that Robert didn't know who Lyanna really was. Pretty reliable as far as I can see.

 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

We don't know what Robert's fantasy of Lyanna was prior the war and her death, only in what it has become after 15 years of him being him, [...]

We do have some clues as to Robert's fantasy: prior to the war at Harrenhal and during the war at The Peach brothel. Both of these have been referred to above. They don't show a high regard for Lyanna.

 

2 hours ago, frenin said:

[...] we know that he was fond of her and  desired her prior the war and  that he allegedly love her, hardly to be disabuse by something that only comes to your mind after everything starts  to fall. 

Do we know he was fond of her? I sure don't. I think he desired her (which doesn't require fondness or love), he thought it would be an advantageous match, marrying her was a way he could join his foster-family since Ned was more a brother to him that his own brothers were.

I think that, mainly, Robert after the betrothal thought and acted as if he owned her. That's very different than fondness and even more different than love.

[frenin]

29 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I don't see any reason to believe Ned is an unreliable narrator here. Robert says Lyanna would never have done that and Ned replies that Robert doesn't really know what Lyanna would have done or not done; Ned understands that Robert didn't know who Lyanna really was. Pretty reliable as far as I can see.

 

Well, he is because he doesn't know what happened between Cersei and Robert, Robert is complaining about how Lyanna wouldn't have embarassed him like Cersei had done and Ned who doesn't know what has happened and just believed that Cersei told him that it was a stupid idea to participate in the melee, but as Sansa shows us and Varys tells Ned, that wasn't what Cersei did, she deliberately embarassed Robert in front of half the court so Robert would stupidely would get killed in the melee.

That's not to say that Robert knew Lyanna deeply,  that's pretty much impossible because he doesn't know her opinions about his behaviour, Ned makes it clear anyway but not knowing someone as their brother did, is in no way the same as not knowing them at all.

 

48 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

We do have some clues as to Robert's fantasy: prior to the war at Harrenhal and during the war at The Peach brothel. Both of these have been referred to above. They don't show a high regard for Lyanna.

 

Do we?? As far as i can see, that fantasy only starts during the war and gets really bad during his years as King when it becomes his escapegoat. As i already said what i think of the Peaches part, three or four times now, i'm not doing it again sorry. But at Harrenhall we're given the info that at some point of the feast Robert was in a drinking game and at the end of the Tourney, Robert was with old Jon and Lord Hunter.

 

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Do we know he was fond of her? I sure don't. I think he desired her (which doesn't require fondness or love), he thought it would be an advantageous match, marrying her was a way he could join his foster-family since Ned was more a brother to him that his own brothers were.

I think that, mainly, Robert after the betrothal thought and acted as if he owned her. That's very different than fondness and even more different than love.

I'm sure the app says so, that he was fond of her and then ask Ned to be the go in between, i think that the idea of him and Ned being actually brothers played a great part but Robert only talks about the dead Starks to use them as an argument against the Targs, i don't really think he cared about them all that much.

About the rest, maybe. 

[Wall Flower]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Well, he is because he doesn't know what happened between Cersei and Robert, Robert is complaining about how Lyanna wouldn't have embarassed him like Cersei had done and Ned who doesn't know what has happened and just believed that Cersei told him that it was a stupid idea to participate in the melee, but as Sansa shows us and Varys tells Ned, that wasn't what Cersei did, she deliberately embarassed Robert in front of half the court so Robert would stupidely would get killed in the melee.

That's not to say that Robert knew Lyanna deeply,  that's pretty much impossible because he doesn't know her opinions about his behaviour, Ned makes it clear anyway but not knowing someone as their brother did, is in no way the same as not knowing them at all.

 

Do we?? As far as i can see, that fantasy only starts during the war and gets really bad during his years as King when it becomes his escapegoat. As i already said what i think of the Peaches part, three or four times now, i'm not doing it again sorry. But at Harrenhall we're given the info that at some point of the feast Robert was in a drinking game and at the end of the Tourney, Robert was with old Jon and Lord Hunter.

 

I'm sure the app says so, that he was fond of her and then ask Ned to be the go in between, i think that the idea of him and Ned being actually brothers played a great part but Robert only talks about the dead Starks to use them as an argument against the Targs, i don't really think he cared about them all that much.

About the rest, maybe. 

While Ned is not aware that Cersei is using reverse psychology on Robert with the ulterior motive of getting him killed, Ned is well aware that the Lyanna he knew probably wouldn't have care about speaking her mind to her lord husband in public. This was the girl who poured a cup of wine over her brother at a royal feast, who chased after squires with a wooden sword howling like a wolf and who most probably dressed as a mystery knight to chastise three knights and said squires before the whole of Harrenhal.

[frenin]

7 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

While Ned is not aware that Cersei is using reverse psychology on Robert with the ulterior motive of getting him killed, Ned is well aware that the Lyanna he knew probably wouldn't have care about speaking her mind to her lord husband in public. This was the girl who poured a cup of wine over her brother at a royal feast, who chased after squires with a wooden sword howling like a wolf and who most probably dressed as a mystery knight to chastise three knights and said squires before the whole of Harrenhal.

That might be the case, but that's not what Ned's  implying because Ned simply don't know what Cersei has done,  that and the fact that Ned considers that Cersei just asked him to not enter the melee implies that not even him would consider that she would act like that btw. No one questions there that Lyanna wouldn't have spken her mind in public,but not do what Cersei did.

[Wall Flower]

Neither Ned or Robert himself know what Cersei is up to. It's Robert who imagines that Lyanna wouldn't have shamed him in public and Ned rightly points out that Robert's expectations of Lyanna aren't based in reality.

We actually see the scene from Sansa's point of view in the previous chapter and its Robert's who causes a scene in front of the whole court.

'Now everyone heard him. 'No' he thundered in a voice that drowned out all other speech. Sansa was shocked to see the king on his feet, red of face, reeling. He had a goblet of wine in one hand, and he was drunk as a man could be. "You do not tell me what to do, woman," he screamed at the Queen Cersei. "I am king here, do you understand? I rule here, and if I say that I will fight tomorrow, I will fight!" 

What Robert doesn't like is being told not to do something by his wife. While Cersei is manipulating him here, there is no guarantee that he would like being told no by Lyanna anymore than by Cersei. Nothing in Lyanna's character suggests that she would be a diplomatic, pliable wife, especially to a man she has been forced into marrying.

[John Suburbs]

On 12/31/2019 at 1:17 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah I disagree. I think there are tons of people discontent with their life, dealing with stuff they don't know how to & not all of them turn into alcoholics & abuse their wife. You are either capable of that or you aren't. 

But we see this same thing with Cersei too, don't we? She starts drinking heavily once she becomes fully responsible for the realm. She doesn't commit violent rape, but she does start experimenting with lesbianism, sends people to the black cells for torture and death at the hands of Qyburn . . . Ultimate, unfettered power is a double-edged sword; it comes with ultimate, unfettered responsibility for everything, and it changes people. We can see the same thing indirectly in Aerys, Aegon V and numerous other kings. It's a tough gig.

Donal Noye to Jon Snow: "Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust."

Robert himself: "I swear to you, I was never so alive when I was winning this throne, or so dead as now that I've won it."

Plenty of people are discontent with their lives; few of them are solely responsible for the safety and security of an entire continent. Some people react to extreme stressors by turning outwardly violent, others by turning inwardly violent, others by reacting in entirely different ways. But I contend that no one becomes a monster irregardless of what happens to them in life. There is a beast in all of us, it just takes the right set of circumstances to bring it out.

Quote

Right, I mean that's basically what I'm saying. Maybe it wouldn't have but I think in life there is always a potential for things to get rough and not go your way & Robert is always going to have the potential to deal with things in this manner. 

But he wouldn't have nearly the stresses as Lord of Storm's End as he did as King of the Seven Kingdoms. He might not have had a wife he resented and who resented him back, and probably not to the extend that things got with Cersei. He wouldn't have secret plots to depose him. He wouldn't be surrounded by fools and flatterers and endless supplicants, He wouldn't be forever battling against the ghosts he hated and pining for the ones he loved . . . Things would have been dramatically different for Robert and that would very likely affect his personality dramatically from the man we saw on the page.

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That isn't necessarily true. If Lyanna expressed her concerns to Ned, Robert, Rickard - whoever & was convincingly reassured that Robert would be a good husband only to have him not be she most definitely could feel a sense of betrayal & increasing hostility toward that. Even if she goes into it knowing exactly who he is that doesn't mean she is going to be happy about it. She didn't want to marry him because of it. If she were made to marry him anyway she would still not like that he does these things. 

Ned does try to assure Lyanna that Robert will be true to her, but Lyanna is not buying it. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." Lyanna is under no illusion as to what kind of husband Robert would make, a faithless one, but even this exchange is only about infidelity. The drunken, violent Robert does not arise until many years later, and it is primarily directed at Cersei. And there is no suggestion here that Lyanna was unwilling to marry Robert because of this. She could very well have been prepared to do what was necessary for their house, and then not batted an eye if he slept with other women because she never loved him in the first place. This is in stark contrast to Cersei, who thought Robert was magnificent when she married him but was crushed when he called her Lyanna.

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Well it's nature vs nuture right? I agree your circumstances help frame who you are but that doesn't mean nature has nothing to do with it. People learn how to cope with things, learn how to communicate with people etc. Robert, at some point, has learned to cope by drinking & whoring, learned to communicate by yelling & being abusive. These are the set of coping mechanisms he was either born with or learned over time (likely a combination of both) so I don't see any reason to believe Robert would have behaved any differently toward Lyanna than he did Cersei. Certainly Lyanna may have behaved differently toward Robert than Cersei did which would influence Roberts actions but the potential is always going to be there. He was a womanizer long before Cersei - hence Lyanna's reluctance to marry him to begin with. 

Agreed, but again I don't think you are taking into account how radically different things would have been if Robert had just married Lyanna as planned. Yes, he was a womanizer, but the violence, born of drunkenness, only arose from the pressures of being king with a queen he neither wanted nor cared for. It's like saying a soldier today returning home with PTSD would still exhibit the same violence and suicidal behavior if he had never gone to war. Experiences change people, and Robert's experiences would have been vastly different if he had just remained Lord of Storm's End. And again, there is no evidence that Lyanna was reluctant to marry Robert, just that she knew what kind of man he was.

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To use a real life example: I know a guy that beat on & cheated on his girlfriend repeatedly. Let's call him Bob. Bob's girlfriend Jane reacted to Bob's cheating by breaking his things, screaming & yelling & threatening. She reacted to his violence with violence of her own. Eventually Bob left Jane for Sarah. Bob went right back to his old ways but Sarah reacted to his cheating by asking for a break in the relationship. When she thought they had worked things out they got back together. Bob ended up man handling Sarah & she reacted by calling the cops, getting a restraining order, & breaking up with him. Things never got as bad with Sarah as they did with Jane because Sarah reacted differently to Bob than Jane did. He didn't get the repeated chances so he didn't get to cheat repeatedly, didn't get to beat her up. It's similar with Cersei & Lyanna. Cersei is toxic & acts & reacts toxically towards Robert giving him the opportunity to tune it up a notch & feel justified. Maybe Lyanna wouldn't have given him that opportunity but I think to say he wouldn't have been a drunken abuser if he only had the right woman is absurd. 

Well, in the first place, your Bob is violent and unfaithful toward women right from the start. Book Robert is unfaithful but there is no indication of violence until Cersei. In the second place, the two women in your story both reacted differently and they got different reactions from Bob, which is exactly my point. I don't deny that Robert could have gotten violent with Lyanna, but it is a misnomer to say that this is a foregone conclusion because that was in his nature. It wasn't until circumstances brought it out.

[Nagini's Neville]

On 30. Dezember 2019 at 1:39 AM, kissdbyfire said:

The WoIaF app states it was Robert who proposed, and Rickard agreed.

Robert Baratheon

“Thanks to his friendship with Eddard, he develops a fondness for Lyanna Stark, and in time he proposes a betrothal. Lord Rickard Stark agrees to this, even as Lyanna recognizes that Robert will never keep to one bed despite Eddard’s assurances that Robert loves her.”

How canon is the app actually? Do we know? There are sometimes minor, but interesting details in there, that you wouldn't get from the books.

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

How canon is the app actually? Do we know? There are sometimes minor, but interesting details in there, that you wouldn't get from the books.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Help:Referencing_and_Canon

• Semi-Canon: Secondary canon, consisting of information verified as having been given by Martin outside of the published works. This includes information given to officially licensed third parties, such as the television show and roleplaying games, and information given through So Spake Martin, Not A Blog, correspondence with fans, readings and signings, statements in interviews, samples or excerpts from unpublished manuscripts, etc. A Song of Ice and Fire Campaign Guide from 2010, for instance, has been considered "changeable canon", and has been contradicted by newer publications, such as The World of Ice and Fire from 2014. The reference app, A World of Ice and Fire, is also considered semi-canon.[3] Please note the "verified" qualifier -- origin with Martin must be an established fact, not simply assumed, and must clearly refer to his series as opposed to the canon of any derivative works. If two pieces of secondary canon appear to contradict each other, it should generally be assumed that the most recently given information is correct.

[Nagini's Neville]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Help:Referencing_and_Canon

• Semi-Canon: Secondary canon, consisting of information verified as having been given by Martin outside of the published works. This includes information given to officially licensed third parties, such as the television show and roleplaying games, and information given through So Spake Martin, Not A Blog, correspondence with fans, readings and signings, statements in interviews, samples or excerpts from unpublished manuscripts, etc. A Song of Ice and Fire Campaign Guide from 2010, for instance, has been considered "changeable canon", and has been contradicted by newer publications, such as The World of Ice and Fire from 2014. The reference app, A World of Ice and Fire, is also considered semi-canon.[3] Please note the "verified" qualifier -- origin with Martin must be an established fact, not simply assumed, and must clearly refer to his series as opposed to the canon of any derivative works. If two pieces of secondary canon appear to contradict each other, it should generally be assumed that the most recently given information is correct.

Thank you!!

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

53 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

But we see this same thing with Cersei too, don't we? She starts drinking heavily once she becomes fully responsible for the realm. She doesn't commit violent rape, but she does start experimenting with lesbianism, sends people to the black cells for torture and death at the hands of Qyburn . . . Ultimate, unfettered power is a double-edged sword; it comes with ultimate, unfettered responsibility for everything, and it changes people. We can see the same thing indirectly in Aerys, Aegon V and numerous other kings. It's a tough gig.

Yeah for sure, Cersei is a special kind of crazy. We have tons of Kings & Queens that don't do these things though. The job is just as tough for them they just learn to cope better. 

54 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Donal Noye to Jon Snow: "Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust."

Robert himself: "I swear to you, I was never so alive when I was winning this throne, or so dead as now that I've won it."

Plenty of people are discontent with their lives; few of them are solely responsible for the safety and security of an entire continent. Some people react to extreme stressors by turning outwardly violent, others by turning inwardly violent, others by reacting in entirely different ways. But I contend that no one becomes a monster irregardless of what happens to them in life. There is a beast in all of us, it just takes the right set of circumstances to bring it out.

I agree. We all have a beast in us, but it isn't the same beast. For example, there are no set of circumstances in which I can imagine Ned turning into a drunk & abusing his wife. He may react in a healthy manner or he may act in a not so healthy manner but Ned isn't the type of person to abuse his wife. That's what I mean when I say it was always in Robert. The potential to be these things has always been there, it took the right set of circumstances to bring them out but someone else, in these same circumstances, would still not be capable of doing the things he has done. 

I think there are people, although rare, that turn into monsters with no notable reason in life. We even have children, very occasionally, who seem to be born this way. At a very young age, without being abused or neglected or suffering any traumatic experience, are sadists. They enjoy inflicting pain on other people & animals. There is something broken inside of them from the start. I don't necessarily think this is Robert's hang up but it does happen. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

But he wouldn't have nearly the stresses as Lord of Storm's End as he did as King of the Seven Kingdoms.

Sure, I don't think being Lord of Storm's End would be as stressful as being King but this still puts the onus on Robert. And while the stress may be less there is still going to be some stress. We know how Robert deals with stress so there would still be some immoral things going on here. Is it your stance that Robert only turned into what he is because he became King? I just can't buy into that. Like I've said, I think the potential was always there. Being King, stressing out, Crazy Cersei all exacerbated the situation & probably made Robert's violence come out worse than it would have otherwise but he is always going to experience stress - everyone does. His level of violence & selfishness may go down as his stress levels go down but that is still Robert that has an issue being able to deal with things. If the issue is Robert & his coping skills removing the Kingship & Cersei are not going to be a fail safe way of keeping Robert's demons at bay. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

He might not have had a wife he resented and who resented him back, and probably not to the extend that things got with Cersei.

Yeah he might not have. Or he might have. I agree 100% that Cersei escalates the situation in a manner Lyanna probably would not have but Lyanna was not a submissive, obedient woman. There would have been things she disagreed with him on & she would not have bit her tongue. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

He wouldn't have secret plots to depose him. He wouldn't be surrounded by fools and flatterers and endless supplicants,

Why not? These same things could happen when he is Lord of Storm's End also. All of Robert's issues can't be blamed on everyone else. If he only didn't have to be King, could have a submissive, obedient wife, smart, loyal men surrounding him (never mind that he doesn't listen one iota to the men he does have that are smart & loyal) didn't have people plotting against him, didn't suffer the death of his betrothed THEN he would be a great guy & never commit acts of violence against his wife. That's what it seems like you are saying. At what point do Robert's actions become Robert's fault? He is the common denominator here. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

He wouldn't be forever battling against the ghosts he hated and pining for the ones he loved . . . Things would have been dramatically different for Robert and that would very likely affect his personality dramatically from the man we saw on the page.

I think Robert would have found something else to fuel his flame if he weren't using Lyanna's death but in general I agree that his personality would have changed some with different life experiences but just because these particular things didn't happen doesn't mean nothing would have happened. Most people would be understanding, nice, non-violent, people if things always just went their way & they didn't suffer any loss but that just isn't reality. We all suffer loss, we all have things happen to us - it's how we react to them that makes us different.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Ned does try to assure Lyanna that Robert will be true to her, but Lyanna is not buying it. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature." Lyanna is under no illusion as to what kind of husband Robert would make, a faithless one, but even this exchange is only about infidelity. T

Sure, I was saying if someone had succeeded in convincing her that Robert would have been faithful. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

The drunken, violent Robert does not arise until many years later, and it is primarily directed at Cersei.

So the drunken violent Robert may not have surfaced for years after marrying Lyanna either but some of it would have certainly reared it's ugly head. That's the way of it isn't it? Most men who are violent drunks & abuse women primarily direct it at the woman they are with.  That doesn't mean it's her fault. Cersei's own actions are her fault but not Robert's. I'm not even saying she didn't deserve most of what she got on a karmic level, I'm just saying he controls his own actions. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

And there is no suggestion here that Lyanna was unwilling to marry Robert because of this.

Maybe I'm misremembering but I thought the whole conversation between Lyanna & Ned was about her not wanting to marry him. She's expressing Robert's flaws to Ned right? I don't think that was in an effort to explain why she would be excited about marrying him. Clearly, infidelity isn't something she thinks is a great attribute. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

She could very well have been prepared to do what was necessary for their house, and then not batted an eye if he slept with other women because she never loved him in the first place. This is in stark contrast to Cersei, who thought Robert was magnificent when she married him but was crushed when he called her Lyanna.

Well she could have but that isn't what she did. We don't have enough information to say exactly why Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar (if she did indeed go willingly) but I can't imagine the She-wolf being perfectly content with Robert sleeping with other women & then coming home to sleep with her whether she loves him or not. Also wouldn't the fact that Lyanna doesn't love Robert cause quite a bit of depression & stress to Robert? Especially if he truly was so in love with her & not just in love with the idea of her? That would cause resentment in their marriage I assume. I understand Cersei wasn't aware of Robert's nature & that Lyanna was but just because you are aware of something doesn't mean you are ok with it. Why would Lyanna mention this at all to Ned if it was of no concern to her? 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Agreed, but again I don't think you are taking into account how radically different things would have been if Robert had just married Lyanna as planned. Yes, he was a womanizer, but the violence, born of drunkenness, only arose from the pressures of being king with a queen he neither wanted nor cared for.

I am taking into account how radically different things may have been, we can't say for certain what they would have been. There would have been other things to stress him out, other pressures on him, not to mention instead of being with a Queen he didn't want or care for he would be with a Queen that didn't want or care for him. I agree that if things were less stressful & Lyanna dealt with Robert in a less inflammatory way than Cersei did (I'm not so sure she would have. She wouldn't have dealt with Robert the same as Cersei does but her independence & wolf blood would still probably have inflamed him) then he probably wouldn't have been as violent or as rape-y, maybe not as drunk. But at the end of the day this is how Robert deals with stress. He wasn't taught to deal with stress this way during his Kingship, he is an adult at this point & whatever he may have learned in regards to coping would have been learned long before this. The Kingship was a stressor but his coping mechanisms were there long before this. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

It's like saying a soldier today returning home with PTSD would still exhibit the same violence and suicidal behavior if he had never gone to war.

Not at all. What I'm saying is one soldier returning home with PTSD may react outwardly violent; beating women, children, maybe even sexual assault. While another soldier returning home with PTSD may react by never leaving his home, sitting in the dark all the time, alienating himself from his family. And yet a 3rd may react by going to a psychologist, attend meetings, talk through his issues etc. My point is while they all have PTSD they all react to it differently & the guy that reacts by hiding in his house & the guy that reacts by talking through his issues were never going to be capable of beating women & children. The guy who reacted by beating women & children always had that potential & while it was the PTSD that triggered it, there could have been any number of other triggers. Him not becoming a soldier is not a fail safe way to ensure he never beats women & children. He could have had abusive parents, he could have gotten robbed, he could have suffered the loss of a loved one, he could have started drinking too much etc. It was being a soldier that set it off in this instance but removing that trigger is not removing his coping skills so any stressful situation could bring this out in him. The level of the stress would probably directly correlate with the level of his reaction but it is still his style whether he beats his wife to death or gets angry & shoves her once. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

ell, in the first place, your Bob is violent and unfaithful toward women right from the start. Book Robert is unfaithful but there is no indication of violence until Cersei.

Right but there is no indication of Robert being in a relationship with anyone before Cersei & there was no indication of Bob being violent before he was violent with Jane. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

In the second place, the two women in your story both reacted differently and they got different reactions from Bob, which is exactly my point. I don't deny that Robert could have gotten violent with Lyanna, but it is a misnomer to say that this is a foregone conclusion because that was in his nature. It wasn't until circumstances brought it out.

Right they both reacted differently toward him & got different reactions but they were both on the same field. He beat Jane senseless & only man handled Sarah - but both things are violent & speak to the person Bob is at his core. It is in his nature, the same as it is in Roberts. I agree that we cannot say for certain 100% that Robert would have gotten violent with Lyanna but I think it would take a special set of circumstances for him not to. I also agree that Cersei's actions & reactions exacerbate Robert's in a way Lyanna probably wouldn't have (just like Jane's actions exacerbate in a way Sarah's do not) & because of this we probably wouldn't have seen the extremely violent Robert that Cersei sees but I cannot agree that it was merely his circumstances that caused it. 

This is like saying if only his circumstances would have been better he wouldn't have behaved the way he did - while that is true on the surface because better circumstances = less stress = less reaction to stress & less violence, he is still going to have some stress & still react the way he does to stress so he is still going to be a violent person unless & until he gets some help or learns how to deal with the stress in a healthy, non-violent manner. It may even be true that if his circumstances were perfect & he didn't experience any stress that he would never react in a violent way but that doesn't negate the fact that he has that potential & the only reason it isn't showing is because everyone around him is doing his bidding & playing things his way. 

[John Suburbs]

On 12/31/2019 at 3:34 PM, the Other Wolf said:

Oh, I didn't know if you were stressed it is okay. In that case... 

No, you let her be and have all the girls that willing want to have sex with you.

You do realize that you are defending a rapist right?

Even if true, there are lots of things that happened in the past, like slavery, and I condemn slave holding characters as well. 

Agreed!

Oh the poor poor criminals, murderers and rapists in the world. I disagree, lots of families have someone that is not a good person even though they grew up in the same situation and environment. 

 

I never said it was OK, just that people who suddenly start committing these kind of acts usually do so in response to external pressures, not because this is just the way they are. I am not defending him. I'm saying the relationship was toxic. Are you defending Cersei for her adultery and the murders she committed?

You may condemn slavery and I may condemn slavery, but neither of us are characters in the book. The question is, what would Lyanna do in response to Robert's infidelity? And the answer is, like most highborn ladies, nothing, as long as Robert kept it on the down-low and didn't bring his ladies to court or try to raise his bastards openly.

Nobody is born a rapist or a murderer. Little babies do not lie in their bassinets thinking to themselves, oh boy, I can't wait until I get to start raping and murdering. Even in cases when there is a mental defect or some psychological disorder, it takes the right environment to turn this into violence. You obviously have no experience with poverty, broken homes, abusive parents . . . Don't judge people for the weakness of their characters when you do not know what kind of person you would have grown into under the same circumstances.

 

[John Suburbs]

On 12/31/2019 at 5:49 PM, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I have my doubts that Robert's "desired outcome" would actually have ended up being the thing he desired. He didn't know or understand Lyanna as a person at all, as Ned flat-out tells him (albeit long after her death). There's a reason why the author chose to never depict a single interaction between Robert and Lyanna and even on the one occasion where we know they were in the same place at the same time (at Harrenhal), Robert chose to spend his time drinking with his male buddies instead of talking or dancing with Lyanna.

Robert's idolization of Lyanna did not represent something real that he engaged in in good faith. She was a fantasy of his that existed only in his imagination. Making a life with the actual person she was would quickly have disabused him of that imagined version. And then where would Robert be, if he had to deal with the real person Lyanna was rather than the ideal he wanted and thought her to be? He would not have been living his desired outcome, of that I'm pretty sure.

That's exactly my point. Robert may have turned out horrible for Lyanna. but we cannot accept this as a given just because things turned out horrible with Cersei. It could have gone very well with Lyanna, who had a much clearer understanding of what Robert was all about than Cersei ever did, and their relationship and virtually everything else about their lives would have been completely different.

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

That's exactly my point. Robert may have turned out horrible for Lyanna. but we cannot accept this as a given just because things turned out horrible with Cersei. It could have gone very well with Lyanna, who had a much clearer understanding of what Robert was all about than Cersei ever did, and their relationship and virtually everything else about their lives would have been completely different.

just take some evidence from real life. the husbands, that beat their wives, usually have beaten many gfs before, the same with sexual assault. Assuming it is just this one specific person, that generates that behavior is just victim blaming- even if it is a victim like Cersei.

Especially when you consider, that he has complete power over her. If he doesn't get along with her he doesn't have to engage with her. he could have done it like Stannis did with his wife. He is totally free, he can take whatever lover he wants, keep company of whoever he wants. He isn't deprived of sex. That he still does that to her though, makes it clear it is a power move and says a lot about him.

Maybe he wouldn't have raped Lyanna as often as Cersei, but knowing how head-strong and freedom-loving she was, it's very likely he would have done it sooner or later, if he felt he was loosing power over her. And after he raped her the first time Lyanna might not have wanted to have consensual sex with him afterwards.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

just take some evidence from real life. the husbands, that beat their wives, usually have beaten many gfs before, the same with sexual assault. Assuming it is just this one specific person, that generates that behavior is just victim blaming- even if it is a victim like Cersei.

Especially when you consider, that he has complete power over her. If he doesn't get along with her he doesn't have to engage with her. he could have done it like Stannis did with his wife. He is totally free, he can take whatever lover he wants, keep company of whoever he wants. He isn't deprived of sex. That he still does that to her though, makes it clear it is a power move and says a lot about him.

Maybe he wouldn't have raped Lyanna as often as Cersei, but knowing how head-strong and freedom-loving she was, it's very likely he would have done it sooner or later, if he felt he was loosing power over her. And after he raped her the first time Lyanna might not have wanted to have consensual sex with him afterwards.

I agree. And the men that beat their wives, that have beaten many gf's before that started somewhere. At one point in time it was "only" one gf he had beaten. Had he stayed with that women the rest of his life, it would have likely remained only one woman he had beaten. Does that mean it's that one woman's fault & he wouldn't have turned into a woman beater had he not been subjected to this one woman? Absolutely not. He was always capable of being a woman beater & barring some psychological help, is always going to be one. 

Robert certainly had other options available to him but he chose to deal with things like this. He chose this route because it's what he knows, it's what he learned &/or it's what is ingrained in him. 

[the Other Wolf]

50 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Are you defending Cersei for her adultery and the murders she committed?

Nope, she is evil.

 

50 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

what would Lyanna do in response to Robert's infidelity? And the answer is, like most highborn ladies, nothing

I think what we know of her, she would most definitely not have done nothing. 

 

50 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

You obviously have no experience with poverty, broken homes, abusive parents . . .

I was made to sexually abuse a 6 year old girl when I was 6. I was beat by my parents. We were on food stamps. My dad is a drunk. I went to 7 elementary schools..... yet I have never been arrested and I do not do anything in my adult life to hurt anyone else. My kids are not spanked. I walk away from fights. Nice try though.

People choose who they want to be. I am 42 now btw.

[kissdbyfire]

23 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree. And the men that beat their wives, that have beaten many gf's before that started somewhere

Isn’t the starting point having been abused/beaten themselves usually? It’s a genuine question, this is totally outside my field. But my impression is that abuse/domestic violence is a cycle, where the abused becomes the abuser in turn. 

I think the whole thing is very complicated... And w/o defending Robert or Cersei, and I’m fact not even talking about them but in general, I think in the vast, vast majority of bad and good traits we will have nurture trumping nature. The exception would be cases of actual defects in how the brain works etc; cases where you have very young children in good and nurturing environments torturing animals/younger children etc. There was something up thread about everyone having a beast within, and I agree w/ that. And sure, we like to think that we would never ever do A or B or C, but I don’t think anyone can really be 100% sure they wouldn’t. Given the “right” set of circumstances, over enough time, etc... I don’t know.  

 

ETA: ok, just read @the Other Wolf‘s post above and wanted to say... I am sorry you had to go through all of that, it must have been unbelievably difficult. I am also happy that you overcame it and turned out the way you did.

And to clarify, what I asked above, about abused becoming abusers, I never thought it would go this way for everyone, of course. 

[the Other Wolf]

@John Suburbs

And when my brother shot and paralyzed someone, even though we had shitty a childhood, I STILL BLAME HIM!