How much did Ned care about Lyanna?

[Nagini's Neville]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think in the vast, vast majority of bad and good traits we will have nurture trumping nature. 

It is always an interaction between nature and nurture. There tons of people, who have been severely abused in their childhood, who will never grow up to abuse someone else themselves.

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It is always an interaction between nature and nurture. There tons of people, who have been severely abused in their childhood, who will never grow up to abuse someone else themselves.

 

I 100% believe in the bold. As to nature vs nurture... I really don’t think both play equal parts in this type of thing. Both do play a part, to be sure, but not equal parts. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

That's exactly my point. Robert may have turned out horrible for Lyanna. but we cannot accept this as a given just because things turned out horrible with Cersei. It could have gone very well with Lyanna, who had a much clearer understanding of what Robert was all about than Cersei ever did, and their relationship and virtually everything else about their lives would have been completely different.

That's exactly not my point. Lyanna's objection to Robert had nothing to do with abuse, or potential abuse, of her. Lyanna objected to Robert because she believed he would not be faithful to her. And GRRM shows us by Robert's behavior that she was correct to be apprehensive of that.

There were other pressures that made things turn out horribly in the relationship of Robert and Cersei; those exact pressures would not necessarily have been present if Robert and Lyanna had married, but the main thing that Lyanna worried about (as far as we know) was still very much a thing. And that would still have made for a bad, painful marriage even if not in the exact same way.

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah for sure, Cersei is a special kind of crazy. We have tons of Kings & Queens that don't do these things though. The job is just as tough for them they just learn to cope better. 

Of course, I'm not disputing that either. What I'm disputing is that Robert would have undoubtedly turned into the same abusive husband with Lyanna as he did with Cersei. This is wild speculation because so many things would have been so utterly different if none of this ever happened and Robert had married Lyanna as planned.

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I agree. We all have a beast in us, but it isn't the same beast. For example, there are no set of circumstances in which I can imagine Ned turning into a drunk & abusing his wife. He may react in a healthy manner or he may act in a not so healthy manner but Ned isn't the type of person to abuse his wife. That's what I mean when I say it was always in Robert. The potential to be these things has always been there, it took the right set of circumstances to bring them out but someone else, in these same circumstances, would still not be capable of doing the things he has done. 

I think you vastly underestimate how much of our personalities are influenced by the world we find ourselves in. If, say, Ned had been beaten, abused and psychologically tortured by his own father and brother, physically tortured in war, broken like Theon, then forced into marrying some horrible shrew who smacked him around, belittled him before the court, tried to murder him on multiple occasions, there is no reason at all to think even Ned would not crack. We all have inherent strengths and weaknesses, but there is no one in this world who can withstand all that this world can dish out. We all have our breaking points. To say that, no matter what, Robert would have reached his in Storm's End with Lyanna because he did so in King's Landing with Cersei is simply not true.

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I think there are people, although rare, that turn into monsters with no notable reason in life. We even have children, very occasionally, who seem to be born this way. At a very young age, without being abused or neglected or suffering any traumatic experience, are sadists. They enjoy inflicting pain on other people & animals. There is something broken inside of them from the start. I don't necessarily think this is Robert's hang up but it does happen. 

Where? Who? Please name these little murderous psycho children who start killing people for no reason and who have never suffered any abuse or mistreatment. Show me even a three-year-old "sadist" who has not suffered abuse at the hands of others, most likely the adults in their lives -- the very people he/she relies on for love and protection. In every case, every single one, adults who act like this -- whether it is a psycho serial killer or a mobster or a sudden mass shooter -- there is a lengthy history of physical, emotional, sexual and/or psychological abuse. Please, this idea that some people are just born evil is the lazy person's excuse for not accepting the responsibility we all share for the hidden, invisible violence that is inflicted on a daily basis to our most vulnerable -- our children. It's just all their fault, naught to do with me. Societies that have addressed this problem -- Denmark, Norway, Japan -- all have extensive child welfare and anti-poverty services, while countries with the highest crime rates -- Venezuela, South Africa, Afghanistan -- do not.

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Sure, I don't think being Lord of Storm's End would be as stressful as being King but this still puts the onus on Robert. And while the stress may be less there is still going to be some stress. We know how Robert deals with stress so there would still be some immoral things going on here. Is it your stance that Robert only turned into what he is because he became King? I just can't buy into that. Like I've said, I think the potential was always there. Being King, stressing out, Crazy Cersei all exacerbated the situation & probably made Robert's violence come out worse than it would have otherwise but he is always going to experience stress - everyone does. His level of violence & selfishness may go down as his stress levels go down but that is still Robert that has an issue being able to deal with things. If the issue is Robert & his coping skills removing the Kingship & Cersei are not going to be a fail safe way of keeping Robert's demons at bay. 

Yes, as the quotes I posted showed, Robert hated being king and everything about it. Add to that that he has plots against him, including those of his own wife (would Lyanna have been plotting to kill him? Was she sleeping with her own brother?), the entire weight of the kingdom rests on his shoulders alone, his fools and flatterers are no help, and a thousand other things, it's no wonder he resorted to escapism and alcohol. You are right in that the potential was always there, but potential does not predetermine a conclusion. As I've said over and over again, he may have reacted the same way as Lord of Storm's End, but there is no reason to conclude that this is inevitable because of the violence he exhibited in King's Landing.

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Why not? These same things could happen when he is Lord of Storm's End also. All of Robert's issues can't be blamed on everyone else. If he only didn't have to be King, could have a submissive, obedient wife, smart, loyal men surrounding him (never mind that he doesn't listen one iota to the men he does have that are smart & loyal) didn't have people plotting against him, didn't suffer the death of his betrothed THEN he would be a great guy & never commit acts of violence against his wife. That's what it seems like you are saying. At what point do Robert's actions become Robert's fault? He is the common denominator here. 

I never said anything like this, not even close. Nowhere did I say that if all of these things were different then Robert would have definitely been gentle as a lamb. All I'm saying is that there is no reason to conclude he would have been exactly the same person toward Lyanna that he was toward Cersei given the vastly different lives they would have led. Was it inevitable that Cersei turned out the way she did, and that the beatings she took, the stresses she faced, the circumstances she found herself in, had nothing at all to do with it? 

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I think Robert would have found something else to fuel his flame if he weren't using Lyanna's death but in general I agree that his personality would have changed some with different life experiences but just because these particular things didn't happen doesn't mean nothing would have happened. Most people would be understanding, nice, non-violent, people if things always just went their way & they didn't suffer any loss but that just isn't reality. We all suffer loss, we all have things happen to us - it's how we react to them that makes us different.

Exactly my point. But I think it's fair to say that life would have been much simpler for Robert at Storm's End than as king of the 7K. I can't imagine how stressful and frustrating that life would be. If Robert had sought something else to "fuel his flame" then that would be something of his choosing, not something forced on him, and there would be no reason to take it out on Lyanna. Again, as I've said over and over, there is no way to say for sure how things would have turned out, my point is merely that we cannot just blithely assume Robert would have turned out the same for Lyanna as he did with Cersei because, "that's just his nature." This aspect of his nature only emerged due to these unique circumstances which would not exist if things had worked out differently.

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So the drunken violent Robert may not have surfaced for years after marrying Lyanna either but some of it would have certainly reared it's ugly head. That's the way of it isn't it? Most men who are violent drunks & abuse women primarily direct it at the woman they are with.  That doesn't mean it's her fault. Cersei's own actions are her fault but not Robert's. I'm not even saying she didn't deserve most of what she got on a karmic level, I'm just saying he controls his own actions. 

No, not certainly. If Robert had been content with his life and his wife, he would likely have been a happy drunk, not a violent one. So again, the question remains, would he have been content with Lyanna? Maybe, maybe not. I would venture a guess, though, that he would have been far more content with Lyanna that he was with Cersei.

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Sure, I was saying if someone had succeeded in convincing her that Robert would have been faithful. 

Maybe I'm misremembering but I thought the whole conversation between Lyanna & Ned was about her not wanting to marry him. She's expressing Robert's flaws to Ned right? I don't think that was in an effort to explain why she would be excited about marrying him. Clearly, infidelity isn't something she thinks is a great attribute. 

The whole thing is a flashback, so we'll never know for sure, but here is the text:

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"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms, he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

You see how it's Ned trying to assure her, but Lyanna doesn't buy it? She had no illusions about Robert way back then, but there is no indication here that she was not willing to marry him, or even that she couldn't come to love him in time even if he was unfaithful.

We don't know the truth about Lyanna's disappearance, but I would hazard a guess that it is not even close to what the vast majority of the readership suspects at the moment: that Lyanna was so put off by the prospect of marrying Robert that she ran off with Rhaegar instead. Sorry, but that's just too fairy-tale for Martin.

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Not at all. What I'm saying is one soldier returning home with PTSD may react outwardly violent; beating women, children, maybe even sexual assault. While another soldier returning home with PTSD may react by never leaving his home, sitting in the dark all the time, alienating himself from his family. And yet a 3rd may react by going to a psychologist, attend meetings, talk through his issues etc. My point is while they all have PTSD they all react to it differently & the guy that reacts by hiding in his house & the guy that reacts by talking through his issues were never going to be capable of beating women & children. The guy who reacted by beating women & children always had that potential & while it was the PTSD that triggered it, there could have been any number of other triggers. Him not becoming a soldier is not a fail safe way to ensure he never beats women & children. He could have had abusive parents, he could have gotten robbed, he could have suffered the loss of a loved one, he could have started drinking too much etc. It was being a soldier that set it off in this instance but removing that trigger is not removing his coping skills so any stressful situation could bring this out in him. The level of the stress would probably directly correlate with the level of his reaction but it is still his style whether he beats his wife to death or gets angry & shoves her once. 

We're getting into real arcane psych here, but you are basically correct. People react to PTSD in different ways based on their genetics and character (which is nurtured through upbringing, not endemic). But the fact remains that all of these people will have endured different experiences to trigger their particular reactions, and none of their behaviors will have likely exhibited if they had experienced no PTSD at all. So again, Robert is not destined to be a drunkard and rapist no matter what; it took a very special sequence of circumstances to produce that result, none of which were likely to arise with Lyanna. Other circumstances might have, but this is by no means guaranteed.

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Right but there is no indication of Robert being in a relationship with anyone before Cersei & there was no indication of Bob being violent before he was violent with Jane. 

Robert fathered several children before Cersei; whether you count that as a relationship is another matter. But he was never violent toward any of his women as far as we know, only Cersei.

Of course Robert would not have had an idyllic, stress-free life, but I contend it would have been far less stressful in Storm's End than in King's Landing, and most likely with Lyanna than with Cersei. The Robert you saw on the page was the Robert who evolved over many years, years which would have been radically different if everything had gone according to plan.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Robert's biggest trauma was watching his parents' ship sink. Otherwise, he had a similar upbringing to Ned since they were essentially raised by the same man. 

Robert didn't care about his brothers. He complains about Joffrey, tells Ned he doesn't know Joff like Robert does, but doesn't lift a finger to try and raise him better. The birthday presents Edric Storm received were from Varys, not from Robert.

He wasn't interested in ruling, otherwise, he might have returned to Storm's End to see to his lands and his keep, instead of staying at the Vale. He was not interested in his children, biological or otherwise, he was abusive with his wife. Cersei might be rotten, but nothing justifies him forcing himself on her or slapping her around. 

But somehow, he was going to do better with Lyanna, a girl who did not seem to take things lying down. 

[the Other Wolf]

@John Suburbs

5 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

nothing justifies him forcing himself on her or slapping her around

 

ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY NOTHING!

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Isn’t the starting point having been abused/beaten themselves usually? It’s a genuine question, this is totally outside my field. But my impression is that abuse/domestic violence is a cycle, where the abused becomes the abuser in turn. 

Oh for sure. I don't think that's always the case but it is definitely known to be often. When I said it started somewhere I meant the act of actually using violence against another person. One of John's arguments was that Robert had only been violent to Cersei or mainly to her & I was just trying to say that even if it was only Cersei, every abuser has only abused one person at some point ya know? 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

think the whole thing is very complicated... And w/o defending Robert or Cersei, and I’m fact not even talking about them but in general, I think in the vast, vast majority of bad and good traits we will have nurture trumping nature. The exception would be cases of actual defects in how the brain works etc; cases where you have very young children in good and nurturing environments torturing animals/younger children etc. There was something up thread about everyone having a beast within, and I agree w/ that. And sure, we like to think that we would never ever do A or B or C, but I don’t think anyone can really be 100% sure they wouldn’t. Given the “right” set of circumstances, over enough time, etc... I don’t know

I agree mostly. I don't know if the nurture trumps nature the majority of the time though. It is very complicated & I think it's hard to say when one will win out over the other. Often times you have more than one person growing up in the same shitty environment but then only one of them turn out to be a monster or continue the cycle. So in the case of the one that turned out bad it seems nurture prevailed but in the other, nature did. 

It's very hard to say you would never, when you haven't been put in the same situation as someone else. We never know what we may be capable of put in extreme circumstances. With Robert though I don't think his situation was so extreme or his life was so bad that it would lead an otherwise reasonable person to do the things he did. Admitting that I can never know for sure, I feel pretty confident saying living in Robert's life I wouldn't have forced myself on my wife or abused her. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, the Other Wolf said:

Nope, she is evil.

 

I think what we know of her, she would most definitely not have done nothing. 

 

I was made to sexually abuse a 6 year old girl when I was 6. I was beat by my parents. We were on food stamps. My dad is a drunk. I went to 7 elementary schools..... yet I have never been arrested and I do not do anything in my adult life to hurt anyone else. My kids are not spanked. I walk away from fights. Nice try though.

People choose who they want to be. I am 42 now btw.

I'm so sorry. My heart hurts for you. I know that's not why you posted this but I needed to say it all the same. 

[frenin]

23 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Neither Ned or Robert himself know what Cersei is up to. It's Robert who imagines that Lyanna wouldn't have shamed him in public and Ned rightly points out that Robert's expectations of Lyanna aren't based in reality.

We actually see the scene from Sansa's point of view in the previous chapter and its Robert's who causes a scene in front of the whole court.

'Now everyone heard him. 'No' he thundered in a voice that drowned out all other speech. Sansa was shocked to see the king on his feet, red of face, reeling. He had a goblet of wine in one hand, and he was drunk as a man could be. "You do not tell me what to do, woman," he screamed at the Queen Cersei. "I am king here, do you understand? I rule here, and if I say that I will fight tomorrow, I will fight!" 

What Robert doesn't like is being told not to do something by his wife. While Cersei is manipulating him here, there is no guarantee that he would like being told no by Lyanna anymore than by Cersei. Nothing in Lyanna's character suggests that she would be a diplomatic, pliable wife, especially to a man she has been forced into marrying.

Oh i forgot about that, thanks for the clear.

The point still stands, what Robert doesn't like is being forbidden sonething, Ned's words that telling Robert he couldn't do something and  it was as good as done etc etc, but he doesn't have any trouble with his wife speaking his mind, and  Ned himself believed Cersei just suggested Robert to not enter  the melee.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:



2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Of course, I'm not disputing that either. What I'm disputing is that Robert would have undoubtedly turned into the same abusive husband with Lyanna as he did with Cersei.

But I'm not claiming this. I've said repeatedly he would likely be different with Lyanna. My claim is that while he may be different he always has the potential to express his feelings violently & that likely would show in some form or another. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This is wild speculation because so many things would have been so utterly different if none of this ever happened and Robert had married Lyanna as planned

It isn't wild speculation because we know Robert is capable of this. Even if none of these particular things happened there would have been other things that happened. How can you say there isn't a high chance that when these other things stressed him out he wouldn't express his feelings & stress in the same way he always does?

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

think you vastly underestimate how much of our personalities are influenced by the world we find ourselves in. If, say, Ned had been beaten, abused and psychologically tortured by his own father and brother, physically tortured in war, broken like Theon, then forced into marrying some horrible shrew who smacked him around, belittled him before the court, tried to murder him on multiple occasions, there is no reason at all to think even Ned would not crack

Sure, given very extreme circumstances anyone can crack. But Robert didn't suffer any of these things. What I'm saying is if we put Ned in Robert's life he would never have, under those circumstances, became what Robert did. Robert was put under fairly normal stressors & reacted in not a normal way. Most reasonable people would not have behaved the way Robert did in his circumstances. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

We all have inherent strengths and weaknesses, but there is no one in this world who can withstand all that this world can dish out. We all have our breaking points. To say that, no matter what, Robert would have reached his in Storm's End with Lyanna because he did so in King's Landing with Cersei is simply not true.

I agree & I never said Robert would have reached his breaking point with Lyanna at Storm's End not do I think he reached his breaking point with Cersei in KL. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Where? Who? Please name these little murderous psycho children who start killing people for no reason and who have never suffered any abuse or mistreatment

Well Aaron Campbell, age 16 killed & raped a 6 year old girl & by all accounts had a normal childhood. 

Eric Smith age 13, beat a 4 year old boy to death. While he does claim to have suffered from some bullying it hardly accounts for his actions. 

Lionel Tate age 12 & 1/2 beat a 6 year old girl to death. Nothing to indicate anything traumatizing or bad happening to him. 

Craig Price age 13 killed 4 people is said to have a perfectly normal childhood. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Show me even a three-year-old "sadist" who has not suffered abuse at the hands of others, most likely the adults in their lives -- the very people he/she relies on for love and protection

I never said anything about a 3 year old sadist I said young children. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

In every case, every single one, adults who act like this -- whether it is a psycho serial killer or a mobster or a sudden mass shooter -- there is a lengthy history of physical, emotional, sexual and/or psychological abuse. 

This just simply isn't true. It is the norm yes but there are several serial killers who are said to have had normal childhoods. Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Dennis Rayder, Karla Holmolka, Richard Cottingham, Randy Kraft - I'm sure there are more. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Please, this idea that some people are just born evil is the lazy person's excuse for not accepting the responsibility we all share for the hidden, invisible violence that is inflicted on a daily basis to our most vulnerable -- our children. It's just all their fault, naught to do with me. Societies that have addressed this problem -- Denmark, Norway, Japan -- all have extensive child welfare and anti-poverty services, while countries with the highest crime rates -- Venezuela, South Africa, Afghanistan -- do not.

Call it what you would like but it happens occasionally, like I said. If the answer is not that they were just born that way then it's happening due to something we haven't pinpointed or located yet but to say there are no children or adults who are violent or sadist with out having been the victim of something similar is false. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, as the quotes I posted showed, Robert hated being king and everything about it. Add to that that he has plots against him, including those of his own wife (would Lyanna have been plotting to kill him? Was she sleeping with her own brother?), the entire weight of the kingdom rests on his shoulders alone, his fools and flatterers are no help, and a thousand other things, it's no wonder he resorted to escapism and alcohol. You are right in that the potential was always there, but potential does not predetermine a conclusion. As I've said over and over again, he may have reacted the same way as Lord of Storm's End, but there is no reason to conclude that this is inevitable because of the violence he exhibited in King's Landing

Ok if Robert not being King would have prevented this behavior then what sort of behavior would he have exhibited when he hated being Lord of Storm's End? When he hated being a father? When he hated being with a woman who didn't love him? There are always going to be things to hate. Robert deals with things he hates poorly. 

Lyanna most likely would not have been plotting to kill him but I don't think he knew Cersei was so that wouldn't have had any bearing on his actions. The same with sleeping with her brother. 

Here's my issue: it isn't that Robert specifically hated being King or that he specifically couldn't cope with Cersei that led him to behave the way he did. It could have been anything that he hated or any thing he couldn't cope with. Any number of things could arise between him & Lyanna that he doesn't want to deal with & in a relationship things always arise. There just isn't any realistic way to say he would not have been stressed or that he & Lyanna wouldn't have disagreed about things. 

The potential does not pre-determine the conclusion, I agree. But Robert's coping skills, affinity to alcohol, self-entitledness, & affinity to violence do pre-determine the nature of the conclusion. It would not be exactly the same with another woman as it is with Cersei but when things went awry or got out of his control or stressed him out he is always going to react in this manner. Not to the same extreme, but these are the skills he has & unless he gets taught differently those are going to be the skills he uses. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

never said anything like this, not even close

My apologizes if I've misunderstood but you saying Robert acted this way because he hated being King, Cersei is crazy, he is surrounded by fools, pining over Lyanna led me to the conclusion that you believe if this wasn't the case he wouldn't behave that way. If that isn't what you are saying, I'm a little confused as to why you are presenting these things as reasons for his actions. They are reasons for him to be frustrated, stressed, depressed even maybe but they don't determine how he reacts to them. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

All I'm saying is that there is no reason to conclude he would have been exactly the same person toward Lyanna that he was toward Cersei given the vastly different lives they would have led.

I agree he wouldn't have been exactly the same person. 

 

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Was it inevitable that Cersei turned out the way she did, and that the beatings she took, the stresses she faced, the circumstances she found herself in, had nothing at all to do with it?

I thought we agreed early on that life experiences & circumstances help to frame who we are. Of course these things helped to influence her. But it isn't correct to say had none of these things happened to her that she wouldn't have been a nut job either. She's a little crazy without anything happening to her. Add the bad stuff & you get a stick of dynamite. Without the bad stuff maybe she is more like a sparkler but she is still flammable either way. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Exactly my point. But I think it's fair to say that life would have been much simpler for Robert at Storm's End than as king of the 7K

I agree. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I can't imagine how stressful and frustrating that life would be.

Probably extremely so. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

If Robert had sought something else to "fuel his flame" then that would be something of his choosing, not something forced on him, and there would be no reason to take it out on Lyanna

No I'm saying he obsesses over Lyanna's death & it fuels him. If it wasn't Lyanna's death it would be something else. Nothing he chose to happen to him, something that just happened to him but that he drives himself crazy over nonetheless. There would be no more reason to take this thing out on Lyanna than there is to take out Lyanna's death on Cersei but he does anyway. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, as I've said over and over, there is no way to say for sure how things would have turned out, 

I've agreed to this over & over. We can't say anything for certain because it didn't happen. We are both just using what we know of Robert & human nature in general to speculate as to what would happen. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

my point is merely that we cannot just blithely assume Robert would have turned out the same for Lyanna as he did with Cersei because, "that's just his nature." This aspect of his nature only emerged due to these unique circumstances which would not exist if things had worked out differently

I agree we cannot assume it would have turned out the same for Lyanna but it is my opinion that we can assume Robert would behave in similar fashions when faced with the stressors of life. Since we know life is always going to give us things to stress about & agree that he would probably had less to stress about if he were with Lyanna or at the very least smaller things to stress about I have come to the conclusion that at some point in his relationship with Lyanna his tendency toward violence & drinking would have emerged in some form, albeit to a lesser degree. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

No, not certainly. If Robert had been content with his life and his wife, he would likely have been a happy drunk, not a violent one. So again, the question remains, would he have been content with Lyanna

But see this is where I'm drawing my apparent mistaken conclusion from in regards to your argument. If Robert could have been content & not bothered or stressed by the things he is in KL then he wouldn't behave violently or be a drunk. That is how I understand what you are saying. To me this equates to saying if Robert didn't have to deal with being King, crazy Cersei, fools, loss then he would likely be a happy, non-violent drunk. This is laying the blame everywhere else except with Robert. Yes, his experiences help shape who he is but he has to take responsibility for his own actions as well. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

You see how it's Ned trying to assure her, but Lyanna doesn't buy it?

Yes, I see she doesn't buy it. I was saying IF someone had SUCCEEDED in convincing her. It didn't happen, I know. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

She had no illusions about Robert way back then, but there is no indication here that she was not willing to marry him, or even that she couldn't come to love him in time even if he was unfaithful.

The fact that they were having a conversation in which Ned needed to assure her that his actions prior to being betrothed didn't matter & that he would be a good, loving husband is an indicator to me that she isn't happily willing to marry this man. 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

We don't know the truth about Lyanna's disappearance, but I would hazard a guess that it is not even close to what the vast majority of the readership suspects at the moment: that Lyanna was so put off by the prospect of marrying Robert that she ran off with Rhaegar instead. Sorry, but that's just too fairy-tale for Martin

You're right, we don't know. I don't know what the vast majority of the fandom think but I wasn't saying Lyanna would have ran off with Rhaegar merely because she doesn't want to marry Robert but more like would she have ran off with Rhaegar if she was perfectly content in marrying Robert with no misgivings about his sexual exploits. 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But the fact remains that all of these people will have endured different experiences to trigger their particular reactions, and none of their behaviors will have likely exhibited if they had experienced no PTSD at all. 

I agree mostly. I don't agree that none of the behaviors would have been exhibited if they experienced no PTSD at all. There could have been something else to trigger these behaviors, it didn't have to be PTSD. If the potential trigger was as traumatic as PTSD they would likely exhibit these same behaviors. If the potential trigger was less traumatic than PTSD they would likely exhibit similar behaviors toned down. 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So again, Robert is not destined to be a drunkard and rapist no matter what; it took a very special sequence of circumstances to produce that result, none of which were likely to arise with Lyanna. Other circumstances might have, but this is by no means guaranteed

No he isn't destined to be a drunkard & a rapist no matter what. The behavior got to that extreme because the stressors were that extreme. There would have been other, probably less extreme, stressors with Lyanna & so his behavior would likely have been less extreme but similar in nature. 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Robert fathered several children before Cersei; whether you count that as a relationship is another matter. But he was never violent toward any of his women as far as we know, only Cersei

No, I don't count that as a relationship. Having sex with someone once, or a few times & then leaving & not having to deal with any of the results of that sex is definitely not the same as being married to someone, having to live with them & deal with the children that result from your union. Again, less stressors = less poor behavior. 

 

 

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Robert's biggest trauma was watching his parents' ship sink. Otherwise, he had a similar upbringing to Ned since they were essentially raised by the same man. 

Robert didn't care about his brothers. He complains about Joffrey, tells Ned he doesn't know Joff like Robert does, but doesn't lift a finger to try and raise him better. The birthday presents Edric Storm received were from Varys, not from Robert.

He wasn't interested in ruling, otherwise, he might have returned to Storm's End to see to his lands and his keep, instead of staying at the Vale. He was not interested in his children, biological or otherwise, he was abusive with his wife. Cersei might be rotten, but nothing justifies him forcing himself on her or slapping her around. 

But somehow, he was going to do better with Lyanna, a girl who did not seem to take things lying down. 

Robert cared for Mya until he didn't, he wanted to bring her to court, we don't know why he stopped caring or why he is not interesrted in his kids, we just get to know him at the end when he's a depressed guy chasing delusions as a escapegoat and drowning his pain/issues/ whatever in a very self destructive hedonism, who abuses his wife and neglect pretty much anything but a flagon of wine. We don't know how, when or why Robert hot to that stage, but we do know that the Robert Ned grows up with and fights a war with is not the same as King Robert, this is slapped in our faces when Ned believes that Robert might have had a hand in Bran's attempt when he told Cat at thebeginning of the book that Robert would never harm himor his kin, that he knows him and that they were closer than brothers. Robert having changed for the worse is repeated enough time through all the books.

 

About his brothers and the Vale.

 

Quote

There are many different kinds of love. Robert was dutiful toward his brothers, and no doubt loved them in a way... but he didn't necessarily like them. His relations with Stannis were always prickly. Renly was the baby of the family, and spent little time in Robert's company until he was old enough to come to court. I suspect Robert was fond of the boy, but not especially close to him.

 

Quote

He was fostered, not exiled. Yes, certainly he returned home. Less frequently the first few years, when he would have been performing the duties of a page and then a squire, more often and for longer periods later. During his "squire" years (he wasn't a squire in the strict sense, since he wasn't training for knighthood, but he was acting as one), he would also have accompanied Jon Arryn on many travels out of the Vale. And once he reached the age of sixteen he was a man grown, free to come to go as he liked... which would have included both time at home and in the Vale, since Jon Arryn had become a second father. The same was true of Robert, who divided his time between Storm's End and the Vale after reaching manhood, not to mention dropping in on tourneys and whatever choice fights he could find.

 

 

[Wall Flower]

41 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

But I'm not claiming this. I've said repeatedly he would likely be different with Lyanna. My claim is that while he may be different he always has the potential to express his feelings violently & that likely would show in some form or another. 

It isn't wild speculation because we know Robert is capable of this. Even if none of these particular things happened there would have been other things that happened. How can you say there isn't a high chance that when these other things stressed him out he wouldn't express his feelings & stress in the same way he always does?

Sure, given very extreme circumstances anyone can crack. But Robert didn't suffer any of these things. What I'm saying is if we put Ned in Robert's life he would never have, under those circumstances, became what Robert did. Robert was put under fairly normal stressors & reacted in not a normal way. Most reasonable people would not have behaved the way Robert did in his circumstances. 

I agree & I never said Robert would have reached his breaking point with Lyanna at Storm's End not do I think he reached his breaking point with Cersei in KL. 

Well Aaron Campbell, age 16 killed & raped a 6 year old girl & by all accounts had a normal childhood. 

Eric Smith age 13, beat a 4 year old boy to death. While he does claim to have suffered from some bullying it hardly accounts for his actions. 

Lionel Tate age 12 & 1/2 beat a 6 year old girl to death. Nothing to indicate anything traumatizing or bad happening to him. 

Craig Price age 13 killed 4 people is said to have a perfectly normal childhood. 

I never said anything about a 3 year old sadist I said young children. 

This just simply isn't true. It is the norm yes but there are several serial killers who are said to have had normal childhoods. Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Dennis Rayder, Karla Holmolka, Richard Cottingham, Randy Kraft - I'm sure there are more. 

Call it what you would like but it happens occasionally, like I said. If the answer is not that they were just born that way then it's happening due to something we haven't pinpointed or located yet but to say there are no children or adults who are violent or sadist with out having been the victim of something similar is false. 

Ok if Robert not being King would have prevented this behavior then what sort of behavior would he have exhibited when he hated being Lord of Storm's End? When he hated being a father? When he hated being with a woman who didn't love him? There are always going to be things to hate. Robert deals with things he hates poorly. 

Lyanna most likely would not have been plotting to kill him but I don't think he knew Cersei was so that wouldn't have had any bearing on his actions. The same with sleeping with her brother. 

Here's my issue: it isn't that Robert specifically hated being King or that he specifically couldn't cope with Cersei that led him to behave the way he did. It could have been anything that he hated or any thing he couldn't cope with. Any number of things could arise between him & Lyanna that he doesn't want to deal with & in a relationship things always arise. There just isn't any realistic way to say he would not have been stressed or that he & Lyanna wouldn't have disagreed about things. 

The potential does not pre-determine the conclusion, I agree. But Robert's coping skills, affinity to alcohol, self-entitledness, & affinity to violence do pre-determine the nature of the conclusion. It would not be exactly the same with another woman as it is with Cersei but when things went awry or got out of his control or stressed him out he is always going to react in this manner. Not to the same extreme, but these are the skills he has & unless he gets taught differently those are going to be the skills he uses. 

My apologizes if I've misunderstood but you saying Robert acted this way because he hated being King, Cersei is crazy, he is surrounded by fools, pining over Lyanna led me to the conclusion that you believe if this wasn't the case he wouldn't behave that way. If that isn't what you are saying, I'm a little confused as to why you are presenting these things as reasons for his actions. They are reasons for him to be frustrated, stressed, depressed even maybe but they don't determine how he reacts to them. 

I agree he wouldn't have been exactly the same person. 

 

I thought we agreed early on that life experiences & circumstances help to frame who we are. Of course these things helped to influence her. But it isn't correct to say had none of these things happened to her that she wouldn't have been a nut job either. She's a little crazy without anything happening to her. Add the bad stuff & you get a stick of dynamite. Without the bad stuff maybe she is more like a sparkler but she is still flammable either way. 

I agree. 

Probably extremely so. 

No I'm saying he obsesses over Lyanna's death & it fuels him. If it wasn't Lyanna's death it would be something else. Nothing he chose to happen to him, something that just happened to him but that he drives himself crazy over nonetheless. There would be no more reason to take this thing out on Lyanna than there is to take out Lyanna's death on Cersei but he does anyway. 

I've agreed to this over & over. We can't say anything for certain because it didn't happen. We are both just using what we know of Robert & human nature in general to speculate as to what would happen. 

I agree we cannot assume it would have turned out the same for Lyanna but it is my opinion that we can assume Robert would behave in similar fashions when faced with the stressors of life. Since we know life is always going to give us things to stress about & agree that he would probably had less to stress about if he were with Lyanna or at the very least smaller things to stress about I have come to the conclusion that at some point in his relationship with Lyanna his tendency toward violence & drinking would have emerged in some form, albeit to a lesser degree. 

But see this is where I'm drawing my apparent mistaken conclusion from in regards to your argument. If Robert could have been content & not bothered or stressed by the things he is in KL then he wouldn't behave violently or be a drunk. That is how I understand what you are saying. To me this equates to saying if Robert didn't have to deal with being King, crazy Cersei, fools, loss then he would likely be a happy, non-violent drunk. This is laying the blame everywhere else except with Robert. Yes, his experiences help shape who he is but he has to take responsibility for his own actions as well. 

Yes, I see she doesn't buy it. I was saying IF someone had SUCCEEDED in convincing her. It didn't happen, I know. 

The fact that they were having a conversation in which Ned needed to assure her that his actions prior to being betrothed didn't matter & that he would be a good, loving husband is an indicator to me that she isn't happily willing to marry this man. 

You're right, we don't know. I don't know what the vast majority of the fandom think but I wasn't saying Lyanna would have ran off with Rhaegar merely because she doesn't want to marry Robert but more like would she have ran off with Rhaegar if she was perfectly content in marrying Robert with no misgivings about his sexual exploits. 

I agree mostly. I don't agree that none of the behaviors would have been exhibited if they experienced no PTSD at all. There could have been something else to trigger these behaviors, it didn't have to be PTSD. If the potential trigger was as traumatic as PTSD they would likely exhibit these same behaviors. If the potential trigger was less traumatic than PTSD they would likely exhibit similar behaviors toned down. 

No he isn't destined to be a drunkard & a rapist no matter what. The behavior got to that extreme because the stressors were that extreme. There would have been other, probably less extreme, stressors with Lyanna & so his behavior would likely have been less extreme but similar in nature. 

No, I don't count that as a relationship. Having sex with someone once, or a few times & then leaving & not having to deal with any of the results of that sex is definitely not the same as being married to someone, having to live with them & deal with the children that result from your union. Again, less stressors = less poor behavior. 

 

 

I feel like some of these pro-Robert arguments boil down to -

Robert would be a great guy if only he could spend his life doing exactly what he wanted without any stress, boring responsibility, annoyances or demands;

and

Robert would be a great husband if only his wife was perfect in every way, never contradicted him, annoyed him, bored him, refused him or made a fuss about his little indiscretions, as well as presumably bearing his heirs and ruling his castle!

As you say, somewhere along the line the responsibility has to rest with Robert's own character and the way that he deals with the little difficulties that life throws his way.

[frenin]

50 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

I feel like some of these pro-Robert arguments boil down to -

Robert would be a great guy if only he could spend his life doing exactly what he wanted without any stress, boring responsibility, annoyances or demands;

and

Robert would be a great husband if only his wife was perfect in every way, never contradicted him, annoyed him, bored him, refused him or made a fuss about his little indiscretions, as well as presumably bearing his heirs and ruling his castle!

As you say, somewhere along the line the responsibility has to rest with Robert's own character and the way that he deals with the little difficulties that life throws his way.

I personally don't believe Robert would be a great husband if that, i believe that Robert would be a great guy if not coped with depression and in general very destructives tendencies.

Whether he would be abusive towards every wife or woman he might he might be or he might not, but i don't believe that is his fate to become that because he was abusive with Cersei. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

11 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

I feel like some of these pro-Robert arguments boil down to -

Robert would be a great guy if only he could spend his life doing exactly what he wanted without any stress, boring responsibility, annoyances or demands;

and

Robert would be a great husband if only his wife was perfect in every way, never contradicted him, annoyed him, bored him, refused him or made a fuss about his little indiscretions, as well as presumably bearing his heirs and ruling his castle!

As you say, somewhere along the line the responsibility has to rest with Robert's own character and the way that he deals with the little difficulties that life throws his way.

Right, that's how I take the arguments as well. I don't think for one second John Suburbs is defending rapists or raping though. I think he is just putting more weight on Robert's situation than I would. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 hours ago, frenin said:

Robert cared for Mya until he didn't, he wanted to bring her to court, we don't know why he stopped caring or why he is not interesrted in his kids, we just get to know him at the end when he's a depressed guy chasing delusions as a escapegoat and drowning his pain/issues/ whatever in a very self destructive hedonism, who abuses his wife and neglect pretty much anything but a flagon of wine.

Does the why matter? No matter the reason, he does it & there is no "why" that excuses or justifies it. I'm sure there are things that influenced him but that doesn't mean he isn't just as guilty of these things. 

12 hours ago, frenin said:

We don't know how, when or why Robert hot to that stage, but we do know that the Robert Ned grows up with and fights a war with is not the same as King Robert, this is slapped in our faces when Ned believes that Robert might have had a hand in Bran's attempt when he told Cat at thebeginning of the book that Robert would never harm himor his kin, that he knows him and that they were closer than brothers. Robert having changed for the worse is repeated enough time through all the books.

Sure, he got worse as time went on. That's what happens when you have emotional issues you don't deal with. I agree it may be interesting to know everything in regards to how, when & why Robert ended up where he is but he is still where he is & there is no set of circumstances that excuse his behavior. He is in control of his own behavior. We can even understand where he is coming from with some of his actions; for instance maybe I would have wanted to slap or hit Cersei at some point too if I were living with her but it still doesn't make it right. 

As to the quotes about his brothers, they show exactly what @Alexis-something-Rose said. He doesn't care overly much about them. He doesn't hate them I suppose but he doesn't really like them either. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

11 hours ago, frenin said:

I personally don't believe Robert would be a great husband if that, i believe that Robert would be a great guy if not coped with depression and in general very destructives tendencies.

Whether he would be abusive towards every wife or woman he might he might be or he might not, but i don't believe that is his fate to become that because he was abusive with Cersei. 

I know you weren't talking to me here but would just like to clarify, again. I don't think Robert would always be the same abusive, raping, drunk no matter who he was with. Cersei exacerbates the issue. Cersei is toxic as is Robert. When you put two toxic people together things get worse. I also don't believe that a man that is capable of raping & beating his wife, neglecting his children & his realm, & drinking himself into a stupor is going to change all of these things because he is with a different woman. Maybe he wouldn't have raped Lyanna repeatedly. Maybe he would have only raped her once, because maybe Lyanna would have removed him of his manhood after the first time. Maybe he wouldn't have gotten to the point he would rape her but it would all be dependent on the stress in his life & his contentment & perceived slights. It would never be because Lyanna is just such a better person than Cersei & therefore isn't deserving of Robert's abuse. We don't know Lyanna that well but she is probably a better person than Cersei because most people are better people than Cersei but that does not make Cersei deserving of the abuse or to blame for it. She isn't & neither would Lyanna be but Robert doesn't see things like that. 

[Nagini's Neville]

12 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

I feel like some of these pro-Robert arguments boil down to -

Robert would be a great guy if only he could spend his life doing exactly what he wanted without any stress, boring responsibility, annoyances or demands;

and

Robert would be a great husband if only his wife was perfect in every way, never contradicted him, annoyed him, bored him, refused him or made a fuss about his little indiscretions, as well as presumably bearing his heirs and ruling his castle!

As you say, somewhere along the line the responsibility has to rest with Robert's own character and the way that he deals with the little difficulties that life throws his way.

 to the point. Great summary. Don't wanna know what would have become of Bobby, if he was for example Gregor's little brother. Now there is some real stress for you

[frenin]

20 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Does the why matter? No matter the reason, he does it & there is no "why" that excuses or justifies it. I'm sure there are things that influenced him but that doesn't mean he isn't just as guilty of these things. 

12 hours ago, frenin said:

Yes, it matters, at least for me, it was because he was a selfish asshole, it was because he was a depressed guy, it was because he had Alzheimer (obvious hyperbole here), it was because someday he woke up and decide not giving a fuck about anyone but him andhis delusions, we don't know. It's up to you to decide what to do with those whys.

 

29 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, he got worse as time went on. That's what happens when you have emotional issues you don't deal with. I agree it may be interesting to know everything in regards to how, when & why Robert ended up where he is but he is still where he is & there is no set of circumstances that excuse his behavior. He is in control of his own behavior. We can even understand where he is coming from with some of his actions; for instance maybe I would have wanted to slap or hit Cersei at some point too if I were living with her but it still doesn't make it right. 

I don't even understand this point, I'm not excusing his behaviour, I'm explaining them and why i believe that in other circumstances, he might be the same, he might be better or he might be worse. But i can't say that i believe that someone that is depressed would behave the same way that if he wasn't, he maybe even worse tho.

I have said serveral times what i think of the abuse, so keep bringing up the theme seems a little odd. At any rate i've said that abuse Cersei is justified or ok.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

As to the quotes about his brothers, they show exactly what @Alexis-something-Rose said. He doesn't care overly much about them. He doesn't hate them I suppose but he doesn't really like them either. 

No it doesn't. It shows the opposite,  Robert not liking their brothers is not the same as not caring for them, not is necssary for caring for them, he just doesn't like them. 

 

37 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I know you weren't talking to me here but would just like to clarify, again. I don't think Robert would always be the same abusive, raping, drunk no matter who he was with. Cersei exacerbates the issue. Cersei is toxic as is Robert. When you put two toxic people together things get worse. I also don't believe that a man that is capable of raping & beating his wife, neglecting his children & his realm, & drinking himself into a stupor is going to change all of these things because he is with a different woman. Maybe he wouldn't have raped Lyanna repeatedly. Maybe he would have only raped her once, because maybe Lyanna would have removed him of his manhood after the first time. Maybe he wouldn't have gotten to the point he would rape her but it would all be dependent on the stress in his life & his contentment & perceived slights. It would never be because Lyanna is just such a better person than Cersei & therefore isn't deserving of Robert's abuse. We don't know Lyanna that well but she is probably a better person than Cersei because most people are better people than Cersei but that does not make Cersei deserving of the abuse or to blame for it. She isn't & neither would Lyanna be but Robert doesn't see things like that. 

And i'm not talking about Cersei either, not  even Lyanna. Or any woman for that matter. Robert was sad after Lyanna's death but he wasn't depressed, he started getting there at some point and we don't really know when or why.  I do think that bar the abuse, which i think that Robert is capable of doing and that his situation just made it constantly but he would always can do it, Robert wasn't like thatbut at some point he became that and as i don't think Robert was destined to be depressed as hell to exacerbate all those issues in all his lives, i don't think he is destined to become that. About not being Cersei, iy would be a mix of both,  it would be how he deals with his issues and how he regards his partner.

 

 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

Yes, it matters, at least for me, it was because he was a selfish asshole, it was because he was a depressed guy, it was because he had Alzheimer (obvious hyperbole here), it was because someday he woke up and decide not giving a fuck about anyone but him andhis delusions, we don't know. It's up to you to decide what to do with those whys.

 

Well we do know a little. We know he obsesses over Lyanna & her death so that likely has something to do with it. We know ruling a realm is not something he likes to do so that may be a reason. I guess, to me, anything outside of him having some mental disability that doesn't allow him to make rational choices, any other reason is still his fault. 

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

I don't even understand this point, I'm not excusing his behaviour, I'm explaining them and why i believe that in other circumstances, he might be the same, he might be better or he might be worse. But i can't say that i believe that someone that is depressed would behave the same way that if he wasn't, he maybe even worse tho.

I have said serveral times what i think of the abuse, so keep bringing up the theme seems a little odd. At any rate i've said that abuse Cersei is justified or ok.

Sorry, I haven't read all of your posts but didn't mean to imply you were justifying it or saying it was ok, I was just stating what I think about it & explaining why it doesn't really matter to me why he did it other than as a point of interest & that I also may get where he is coming from & still not agree with his actions. 

13 hours ago, frenin said:

There are many different kinds of love. Robert was dutiful toward his brothers, and no doubt loved them in a way... but he didn't necessarily like them

 

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

No it doesn't. It shows the opposite,  Robert not liking their brothers is not the same as not caring for them, not is necssary for caring for them, he just doesn't like them. 

 

I guess we take different things from this passage but I agree not caring for them isn't always the same as not liking them. He definitely doesn't feel the way I feel about my siblings or what I would assume to be normal feelings towards your siblings. 

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

And i'm not talking about Cersei either, not  even Lyanna. Or any woman for that matter.

Well, you said:

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Whether he would be abusive towards every wife or woman he might he might be or he might not, but i don't believe that is his fate to become that because he was abusive with Cersei. 

 

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

Robert was sad after Lyanna's death but he wasn't depressed, he started getting there at some point and we don't really know when or why.

I don't know if we have enough information to say he was or wasn't depressed. The fact that he is still obsessing over it many years later lends credence to the idea that it affected him greatly. 

19 minutes ago, frenin said:

I do think that bar the abuse, which i think that Robert is capable of doing and that his situation just made it constantly but he would always can do it, Robert wasn't like thatbut at some point he became that and as i don't think Robert was destined to be depressed as hell to exacerbate all those issues in all his lives, i don't think he is destined to become that. About not being Cersei, iy would be a mix of both,  it would be how he deals with his issues and how he regards his partner.

I'm not wholly positive what you are saying here but I don't think Robert was born straight out of the womb a woman abuser. I think it happened over time, but he would have learned & developed these things as a child. By the time he would've married Lyanna or by the time he married Cersei he was already well on his way. Had he married Lyanna maybe it wouldn't have gotten to the point it did. 

[frenin]

30 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well we do know a little. We know he obsesses over Lyanna & her death so that likely has something to do with it. We know ruling a realm is not something he likes to do so that may be a reason. I guess, to me, anything outside of him having some mental disability that doesn't allow him to make rational choices, any other reason is still his fault. 

52 minutes ago, frenin said:

We do know a little, we do not know all and why it's so deep seriously hating ruling is not enough for hating your goddam life, at least is not enough for me, ofc it's his fault tho.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sorry, I haven't read all of your posts but didn't mean to imply you were justifying it or saying it was ok, I was just stating what I think about it & explaining why it doesn't really matter to me why he did it other than as a point of interest & that I also may get where he is coming from & still not agree with his actions. 

14 hours ago, frenin said:

That's fine then,  I don't expect people to give him a pass, i myself don't give him that, but i do  think that in other scenario, he would not be the same asshole.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I guess we take different things from this passage but I agree not caring for them isn't always the same as not liking them. He definitely doesn't feel the way I feel about my siblings or what I would assume to be normal feelings towards your siblings. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Well, that much is obvious isn't it?? But that's something that happens with the Baratheon bros in general, if they feel each other as normal siblings would, they wouldn't be on the verge of extintion due to infighting.  

 

 

35 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, you said:

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't think Robert is set to be always an abusive rapist because he was an abusive rapist to Cersei.  But when i'm talking about his issues,  i'm talkking about everything else but the abuse.

34 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't know if we have enough information to say he was or wasn't depressed. The fact that he is still obsessing over it many years later lends credence to the idea that it affected him greatly. 

56 minutes ago, frenin said:

I think that we do, but that's not really relevant, whatever he had wasn't no near in the same league as for example Aegon 3,  whose symptom are clear, i think that Lyanna passed from someone he alledgedly loved from the perfect escapegoat.

I don't find normal someone that has as many suicidal thoughts as Robert had and that self destructive hedonism, it just seems to me that that's just a very obvious way of numbing the pain.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not wholly positive what you are saying here but I don't think Robert was born straight out of the womb a woman abuser. I think it happened over time, but he would have learned & developed these things as a child. By the time he would've married Lyanna or by the time he married Cersei he was already well on his way. Had he married Lyanna maybe it wouldn't have gotten to the point it did. 

Don't really agree with this but don't really disagree either.