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Angel Eyes

How much did Ned care about Lyanna?

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11 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

"the way Robert would use her when the drink was in him, and she was unable to bring him off with hand or mouth. Those had been the worst nights, lying helpless underneath him as he took his pleasure, stinking of wine and grunting like a boar. Usually, he rolled off and went to sleep as soon as it was done, and was snoring before his seed could dry upon her thighs. She was always sore afterward, raw between the legs, her breasts painful from the mauling he would give them."

"In the first few years, when he mounted her more often, she would close her eyes and pretend that he was Rhaegar. She could not pretend that he was Jaime; he was too different, too unfamiliar. Even the smell of him was wrong. For Robert, those nights never happened. Come morning he remembered nothing, or so he would have had her believe. Once, during the first year of their marriage, Cersei had voiced her displeasure the next day. “You hurt me,” she complained. He had the grace to look ashamed. “It was not me, my lady,” he said in a sulky sullen tone, like a child caught stealing apple cakes from the kitchen. “It was the wine. I drink too much wine.” To wash down his admission, he reached for his horn of ale."

"The rest had all been lies, though. He did remember what he did to her at night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down, Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults did grow less frequent. During the first year, he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely, though."

A Feast for Crows, Cersei,7

The attitude that the victim is provoking the rapist through their actions and is basically causing them to rape them is total BS. And in my opinion just victim blaming. You are either capable of those actions or you aren't. And if you are capable of rape, there is always the potential of it. With Lyanna it might have been different. But sooner or later they would have had a fight, Robert would have drunk to much and he would have done the same thing to Lyanna, that he did to Cersei. And maybe the conflict would have been even worse , because at a certain point he might have learned that she is not "the perfect woman" and doesn't behave the way he expected and wanted her to.

Don't really understand what's the point of this but ok. 

Yes, there is always a potential of Robert abusing Lyanna, or anyone for that matter,  is a perfect mix of Robert's hyper masculinity and a society that views marital rape as men claiming their rights, that's a recipe for a disaster, but and truth be toold, Robert didn't care one way or the other for Cersei and he only came to view her as someone he's entitled to fuck. You don't behave the same way, even as drunk.

Yes, maybe it would've been the same or worse, maybe not, because you know, people and relationships change and are not the same in one context or the the other, fate is not set of stone and all that. Don't really know that at some point he might learn that Lyanna is not the perfect woman, judging their characters and attitudes (albeit quite superficially in Lyanna's part tbh), they fit quite nicely, but the cheating ofc would've fucked up the relationship hard. 

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25 minutes ago, frenin said:

Don't really understand what's the point of this but ok. 

Yes, there is always a potential of Robert abusing Lyanna, or anyone for that matter,  is a perfect mix of Robert's hyper masculinity and a society that views marital rape as men claiming their rights, that's a recipe for a disaster, but and truth be toold, Robert didn't care one way or the other for Cersei and he only came to view her as someone he's entitled to fuck. You don't behave the same way, even as drunk.

Yes, maybe it would've been the same or worse, maybe not, because you know, people and relationships change and are not the same in one context or the the other, fate is not set of stone and all that. Don't really know that at some point he might learn that Lyanna is not the perfect woman, judging their characters and attitudes (albeit quite superficially in Lyanna's part tbh), they fit quite nicely, but the cheating ofc would've fucked up the relationship hard. 

I added a bit to my prior text, maybe that makes my argument and my opinion on Robert's obsession with Lyanna more clear.

When was Lyanna ever superficial towards Robert? I believe she had a pretty good understanding of his character. Also this "love" seemed to be quite one-sided, which could have become a problem as well.

I just believe, that a guy, that has a habit of forcing himself, while being drunk onto his wife in a way, that's also physically painful for her, wouldn't just never do that, just because it's a different wife. A wife that maybe wouldn't even have loved him. And we don't know what Lyanna would have done, if she was unhappy within her marriage, maybe she would have gotten herself a lover. Not that far fetched, when we consider that she might have run aways with Rhaegar and that she is described as willful.

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19 hours ago, frenin said:
20 hours ago, the Other Wolf said:
22 hours ago, frenin said:

Isn't Jon her kid?

If I was a betting man I would say yes, but it has not been written anywhere yet and this is the book forum not the show and book forum.

:cheers:

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4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

When was Lyanna ever superficial towards Robert? I believe she had a pretty good understanding of his character. Also this "love" seemed to be quite one-sided, which could have become a problem as well.

 

That's a misunderstanding,  I said that basedon what we know about Lyanna, which is pretty superficial,  they would've made a great couple... but the cheating. 

Cat didn't love Ned when he met him, she was pretty dissapointed with him and she grew to love him, perhaps she could have never passed that Ned wasn't dashing Brandon, perhaps Ned couldn't have supported being Brandon's lefties, and we know that Brandon is still a sore point in their relationship, but they pass that, ofc that if we only want to focus on the bad side of the things,  all we'll see is going to be bad. Lyanna never said that she didn't care or like Robert, but that Robert was a womanizer.

 

 

4 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 I just believe, that a guy, that has a habit of forcing himself, while being drunk onto his wife in a way, that's also physically painful for her, wouldn't just never do that, just because it's a different wife. A wife that maybe wouldn't even have loved him. And we don't know what Lyanna would have done, if she was unhappy within her marriage, maybe she would have gotten herself a lover. Not that far fetched, when we consider that she might have run aways with Rhaegar and that she is described as willful.

You're entitled to your opinion, but the fact remains that we don't behave the same way with people we care and with people we simply don't give a damn about, Ned is still furious about the dragonspawn incident but he didn't give Mychah two thoughts, perhaps not even one,  is that Ned wouldn't bat an eye with dead children or is simply that a dead peasant riverboy isn't just too much of a concern for Ned??   Robert couldn't stomach Stannis but Ned was his best pal and those two are quite similar,  determinsm just doesn't make sense, ofc maybe Robert could've been Robert 2.0 with Lyanna as he was with Cersei or perhaps even evolve to become Gregor 1.5, or perhaps he just didn't. Perhaps Lyanna would never have loved Robert or perhaps she might.

 

 

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And also Robert did not truly love Lyanna, because he did not know her. Love is something, that grows over time. I believe LF's "love" for Cat more, than Bobby B's for Lyanna, because he did actually know Cat and spend a lot of time with her. Bobby B's seemed to have been a strong infatuation, that later turned into a fixation and obsession and that is never a great basis for a successful relationship anyway. I think Bobby B just blamed everything, that went wrong in his life on "losing Lyanna". But if he had gotten Lyanna he would have found something else to put the blame on. Taking responsibility isn't his strong suit. 

Oh didn't he?? Well perhaps you're right, not that it really matters anyway.

Love is chemical and it doesn't have a defined patron nor is totally understood by psychiatrists,  love might grow over time, which  would be some kind of romantic love or not, which would be some kind of fatuous love?? Or not, the Theories of love are messy and without a general consensus, in class my teachers say to us that we always have to remind that. It's not necessary time for love to grow, only if we're talking about the romantic type. Robert only obsessed and all that after Lyanna's death.

Robert had a strong infatuation that could've perfectly become love, we don't know, the only ones who can answer that question are Martin and Robert.

His strong suit is that he was strong then,  i think that Lyanna's deah is greatly responsible for some of Robert's worst traits, his self destructive hedonism above all and Lyanna and the Crown are responsible for his depression.

 

 

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This idea, that he never got over not getting the one true love of his life and therefore all relationships with women were forever doomed might seem like a romantic notion, but is in reality just an excuse to be a bad human being and a lazy king. How many ppl have truly lost a loved one and haven't turned into gross useless pigs?

This is a non argument, people reacted and carry the loss of someone dear in so different ways that varies in so many ways, from crazinnes to self improvement to a catatonic, to depression, to, too , that the argument of other people had endure better, get over it is just a non argument. It's just a nice way of saying, i don't care about you get over it.

I never find the idea romantic, the implication that it has to be romantic to inspire any sort of empathy seems ludicrous to me,  i find it sad, pathetic and tragic. Whether Robert loved Lyanna or he just thought that he was his stolen kitty it's not relevant in the slightest for me, the outcome was exactly the same,  nor that all his relationships with women were forever doomed, just his relationship with Cersei he didn't love her and never really tried to. Whether he loved Lyanna or not, her death was what pushed him into depression.

For my views of the theme i tend to agree with Ned on this, he says exactly what i think.

 

How could they have all been so blind? The truth was there in front of them all the time, written on the children's faces. Ned felt sick. "I remember Robert as he was the day he took the throne, every inch a king," he said quietly. "A thousand other women might have loved him with all their hearts. What did he do to make you hate him so?"
Her eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. "The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister's name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna."
Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. "I do not know which of you I pity most."

 

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It's the same with LF, how many ppl have been turned done by their teenage crush, without going "insane", because of it?- basically everyone.

 

Does LF care about Cat?? I doubt, Cat seems to be more a status symbol than anything. 

 

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 It's just an excuse for already bad human beings to do bad things and not having to take responsibility for it. 

That's a very shallow view and untrue.

People aren't born bad btw.

 

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 I think Robert is not grieving for Lyanna, but for the idea of her and also for the young man he was back then, when he was engaged to her and for that time in his life and for the fantasy life, that would have followed (as he tells himself) with her. 

That much is obvious, people tend to idealize loved ones and rose tint everything.

 

 

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 This quote is from Ned's perspective and of course Ned wants to think only the best about his friend, (imo it's one of his more obvious weaknesses throughout AGOT). And also Ned is still grieving about Lyanna and about everything that happened between him and her, so it gives him comfort that someone is grieving along side with him. But I'm pretty sure it's different kind of grieving.

Ned is never shy about criticizing Robertin his povs, he says and, thinks what he feels, and the problem with Ned is precisely the opposite, Ned thinks the worst about Robert during all AGOT, to the point of believing that he might had a hand in Bran's murder attempt and that's precisely that poison people pours in his ears what makes him not shaer with Robert his suspicions until it's a little too late for both of them. Is because of Ned thinking the worst about his friend that LF is capable of selling the dagger conspiracy to the Starks, conspiracy that would've fallen apart as soon as Ned and Robert had a chat about the matter,  and starts the domino effect.

Ned is still grieving Lyanna but that's not enough to make him that Robert loved her more than him, that's a pretty significant factand sure his grieve is different, Ned is her brother and he knows how and why she dies, which adds salt into the wound. But i find curious that you believe that there is a good way and a bad way of grieving.

Edited by frenin

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11 minutes ago, frenin said:

That's a very shallow view and untrue.

People aren't born bad btw.

Well, I over- simplified it a bit by labeling them "bad people". Of course ppl aren't "born bad", except for psychopaths. But you are born with specific genetic traits (and they have a pretty strong influence, you can see that in twin studies) It might not be that surprising, that rapists are generally less capable of empathy, than ppl , who aren't. 

What happened to bobby and LF being rejected and loosing a loved one (and she wasn't even a loved one, he wasn't married to her and she was not a family member, he wasn't living with her. What he really lost was the idea of her) are a pretty normal part of the universal human experience. Everyone in their life time will lose a loved one (and someone they really love, not just an idea) and will be rejected. I didn't says you can't grieve or you can't have mental health issues because of it, but when you become an abuser because of it ( and that is btw your reasoning (or at least parts of it) for why Robert abuses cersei not mine) I don't have any compassion for that at all.  And also neglecting 7 kingdoms full of ppl, needing him and counting on him.

It is also kind of Robert's choice to believe Lyanna was abducted and raped. And I have a feeling he believes that, because the alternative, her choosing not to be with him, would be even worse to him. When you look at it from that angle it's kind of outrages to blame her for all the years of depressions, that King Bobby had to endure, that apparently disturbed his view of women and let him to abuse his wife. 

Would you also find it understandable, if somewhere in the future Jon would marry and would abuse his wife, because Cat never accepted him as her son? Would you then also argue that she is responsible for Jon beating and raping his wife?

I have a lot compassion for the Hound, who imo is one of the few characters, who truly had to endure horrible severe  childhood abuse (and that's not part of the normal universal human experience). He is still in my eyes responsible for all of the ppl he killed (Mycah), verbally abusing Sansa and Arya, assaulting Sansa, threatening to kill her, kidnapping Arya, threatening violence on her.

We can't just excuse ppl from inflicting pain onto others, because they have mental health issues. Mental health issues do not give you an excuse to be an abuser. And the ppl, who have to deal with them will be the first to tell you so.

Also what makes you think Bobby's feelings for Lyanna were more sincere, than LF's for Cat? They both said they loved Lyanna and Cat. And at least LF knew Cat. 

It's pretty apparent Robert didn't know Lyanna's true personality.

 

“The woman tried to forbid me to fight in the melee. She’s sulking in the castle now, damn her. Your sister would never have shamed me like that.” “You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert,” Ned told him. “You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee.” “You too?” The king frowned. “You are a sour man, Stark.

 

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15 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Well, I over- simplified it a bit by labeling them "bad people". Of course ppl aren't "born bad", except for psychopaths. But you are born with specific genetic traits (and they have a pretty strong influence, you can see that in twin studies) It might not be that surprising, that rapists are generally less capable of empathy, than ppl , who aren't. 

 

You're born with specific genetic traits  that show or doesn't show up totally depending from context, influence yaddi yaddi yadda,  you know, nature vs nurture. 

 

19 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 What happened to bobby and LF being rejected and loosing a loved one (and she wasn't even a loved one, he wasn't married to her and she was not a family member, he wasn't living with her. What he really lost was the idea of her) are a pretty normal part of the universal human experience. Everyone in their life time will lose a loved one (and someone they really love, not just an idea) and will be rejected. I didn't says you can't grieve or you can't have mental health issues because of it, but when you become an abuser because of it ( and that is btw your reasoning (or at least parts of it) for why Robert abuses cersei not mine) I don't have any compassion for that at all.  And also neglecting 7 kingdoms full of ppl, needing him and counting on him.

 

1. You have pretty fixed ideas in what should be loved or not, or do you think the Baratheon brothers are loved ones to each other??

2. I didn't say you should have compassion for Robert,  saying that Gregor might behave like he does because he might have a tumor in his brain or Ramsay is so fucked because of his father is not the same as condoning his acts. I for example can't forgive Theon having backstab Robb as he did, even after he becomes Reek,  that doesn't mean i can't understand why he did what he did. You can still understand where they are coming from and still think they are scum. Nor did i say that Robert is necessarily an abuser for that, it might be or it might not, that's why my general bet is that he doesn't care of Cersei one way or the other.

Empathy and Sympathy are not the same nor they are synonymous,  

 

36 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 It is also kind of Robert's choice to believe Lyanna was abducted and raped. And I have a feeling he believes that, because the alternative, her choosing not to be with him, would be even worse to him. When you look at it from that angle it's kind of outrages to blame her for all the years of depressions, that King Bobby had to endure, that apparently disturbed his view of women and let him to abuse his wife. 

 

1. It's Robert choice?? The general tale in both sides is that Lyanna was indeed abducted, they only differ in what Rhaegar did and with what intentions he did what he allegedly did after he abducting her. But ofc when you look from the angle of "Robert sucks, totally sucks and beyond" Robert is Gregor, Ramsay and Tywin combined and  also used to send people to Qyburn for his experments.

2. As i said before whether Robert knew the truth and is burying beneath tons of self denial it doesn't really matter, what matter is what that info did to him.

3. NO ONE IS BLAMING LYANNA.   Saying that you have a depression for the death of your brother is not blaming your brother  for dying for god's sake.

4. As i said before, your arguing your strawman here and i need to point it out so we don't get stuck here and this can lead later to more misunderstandings and more tinmen,  i didn't say this  "that apparently disturbed his view of women and let him to abuse his wife. " or even imply, you're the one wanting to believe that.

 

 

50 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 Would you also find it understandable, if somewhere in the future Jon would marry and would abuse his wife, because Cat never accepted him as her son? Would you then also argue that she is responsible for Jon beating and raping his wife?

 

See?? I knew this was going to happen :rofl::bang:

Cause is not the same of responsability,  I'd argue that Jon's obvious mommy issues are the root for his behaviour.

Let's go for the extreme and obvious comparative, saying that a nazi is killing kids because they are jews is not the same as blaming or helding the kids resposible for being jews.

Honestly this seems fairly easy to understand to me.

 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 I have a lot compassion for the Hound, who imo is one of the few characters, who truly had to endure horrible severe  childhood abuse (and that's not part of the normal universal human experience). He is still in my eyes responsible for all of the ppl he killed (Mycah), verbally abusing Sansa and Arya, assaulting Sansa, threatening to kill her, kidnapping Arya, threatening violence on her.

 

I know so??

 

 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 We can't just excuse ppl from inflicting pain onto others, because they have mental health issues. Mental health issues do not give you an excuse to be an abuser. And the ppl, who have to deal with them will be the first to tell you so.

 

You're the one thinking that, I never said that Robert deserved a free pass for that, you're the one thinking that anything that doesn't say that Robert is a irredeemable monster equals to condone his deeds, i'm sorry but no. I didn't try to excuse him,i tried to explain him.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 Also what makes you think Bobby's feelings for Lyanna were more sincere, than LF's for Cat? They both said they loved Lyanna and Cat. And at least LF knew Cat. 

 

Because knowing someone doesn't mean that you love them, nor is a requirement for loving someone i'm sorry bit it isn't,  because LF directly orchestrated her and her family's fall. I don't doubt that young romantic Petyr loved her fiercely i doubt Littlefinger does it now, that and because  almost always  that the love is brought back to the table is in past tense.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Nagini's Neville said:

It's pretty apparent Robert didn't know Lyanna's true personality.

 

“The woman tried to forbid me to fight in the melee. She’s sulking in the castle now, damn her. Your sister would never have shamed me like that.” “You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert,” Ned told him. “You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee.” “You too?” The king frowned. “You are a sour man, Stark.

Ah, the ol one.

Ignoring that Ned's an unreliable narrator here and believes that Cersei just asked to Robert to not enter the melee right??

 

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“The Lannisters,” Ned said. “The queen … no, I will not believe that, not even of Cersei. She asked him not to fight!” “She forbade him to fight, in front of his brother, his knights, and half the court. Tell me truly, do you know any surer way to force King Robert into the melee? I ask you.”

 

 

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I know I'm late to the party, but how was Ned Stark responsible for betrothing his sister Lyanna to Robert Baratheon? He was just a second son! Ned's father was the dude who set up the match; at best, Ned vouched for Robert being a basically decent man. The major criteria, which Robert admirably met, were being a major lord, and a southron lord. On the other hand, why would Ned's dad even care what a second son had to say? He'd have put more stock in what Brandon, the eldest son, had to say - and history records that Brandon was a wild-a$$ c***-chaser just like Robert, who would have had no problem with Robert's predilections.

Don't blame Ned.

Also, I have to add: womanizing, infidelity, and heavy drinking weren't actually regarded as problems for a man in those days.

Edited by zandru

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5 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

At least, not by other men. :D

  

Exactly, there is a difference between the law and what is socially accepted (primarily by other men) and what is causing harm to the wives and families

 

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4 hours ago, zandru said:

I know I'm late to the party, but how was Ned Stark responsible for betrothing his sister Lyanna to Robert Baratheon? He was just a second son! Ned's father was the dude who set up the match; at best, Ned vouched for Robert being a basically decent man. The major criteria, which Robert admirably met, were being a major lord, and a southron lord. On the other hand, why would Ned's dad even care what a second son had to say? He'd have put more stock in what Brandon, the eldest son, had to say - and history records that Brandon was a wild-a$$ c***-chaser just like Robert, who would have had no problem with Robert's predilections.

Don't blame Ned.

Also, I have to add: womanizing, infidelity, and heavy drinking weren't actually regarded as problems for a man in those days.

There’s statements in an app that Ned suggested the betrothal.

 

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Just now, Angel Eyes said:

There’s statements in an app that Ned suggested the betrothal.

 

The WoIaF app states it was Robert who proposed, and Rickard agreed.

Robert Baratheon

“Thanks to his friendship with Eddard, he develops a fondness for Lyanna Stark, and in time he proposes a betrothal. Lord Rickard Stark agrees to this, even as Lyanna recognizes that Robert will never keep to one bed despite Eddard’s assurances that Robert loves her.”

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

The WoIaF app states it was Robert who proposed, and Rickard agreed.

Robert Baratheon

“Thanks to his friendship with Eddard, he develops a fondness for Lyanna Stark, and in time he proposes a betrothal. Lord Rickard Stark agrees to this, even as Lyanna recognizes that Robert will never keep to one bed despite Eddard’s assurances that Robert loves her.”

Then why does it say that it was Ned’s idea on our wiki, using the app as citation?

It was still a terrible idea.

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On 12/27/2019 at 11:03 PM, Angel Eyes said:

I know that he fought a war to rescue her, but still, he helped broker a betrothal between her and Robert; forget Southron Ambitions. Between Lyanna’s willful temperament and Robert’s proclivity for women, he really risked her becoming something like Cersei, twisted and evil.

 

Ned may have been the intermediary; but it would have been Rickard Stark who made the decision to betroth his only daughter to the young lord of Storm's End.

Ned was Robert's best friend and foster-brother; he believed that Robert would take good care of his beloved sister.  As Robert's wife, Lyanna would have an easier life than if she remained in the North; she would be the wife of a Lord Paramount, a man who was a great knight, handsome, and seemed to love the girl.  

However, Ned had grown from child to young man in Robert's company, not in Winterfell watching his little sister grow from small child to teenager.  Lyanna's character, her desires, might have been less known to Ned. Also, he might have been more used to Southern values, i.e. the concept of noblewomen being treasured chattel who would swoon over the prospect of being loved by the mighty Robert Baratheon, rather than remembering that many Northern girls were raised expecting to ride and wield weapons and would not appreciate being kept in silks while their husbands sired bastards on other women.  

But I do believe that Ned loved Lyanna; and loved her more than he cared for Robert.  The proof is in Ned's saving Lyanna's son (which I believe happened in the books as well as the TV show) and lying about the boy's paternity to Robert and the rest of the world (except for Howland Reed, who would have witnessed Ned's taking the baby from the Tower of Joy).  Ned could have left the baby to die with his mother; he could have given him to Reed to raise; but he brought the child to Winterfell and raised him there as his bastard, at considerable cost to Ned's marriage.  

As far as (according to other posters) Lyanna being solely/mainly responsible for the Rebellion; I disagree.  The Rebellion had several triggers:  (1)Rhaegar's taking Lyanna and the resulting belief that he had raped her, (2)Brandon's ill-considered charge into Maegor's keep challenging Rhaegar, the heir to the Iron Throne, to come out and die, (3)which triggered Aerys' paranoia and cruelty to kill both Brandon and his father and then command Jon Arryn to send him the heads of Ned and Robert; (4) all the dominoes fell - Jon Arryn refused to condemn his foster-sons; Hoster Tully was pulled into the alliance by his daughters' marriages to Ned Stark and Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon wanted Lyanna back and Rhaegar dead.  If Rhaegar had returned Lyanna, with recompense to the Starks; and/or if Lyanna had sent a message to her father that she was running off with the prince of her own free will, the Rebellion could have been at least stalled, if not stopped.  But once Brandon challenged Rhaegar with the intent of killing him; once Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon and called for the deaths of Ned and Robert, the Rebellion was inevitable.

What I don't get is why neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna send any messages to clarify that she was not kidnapped or raped.  Both of them were capable of understanding what could happen if the Starks and Baratheons believed that Lyanna had been stolen against her will and was being abused.  It makes me wonder if (A) Rhaegar was emulating Tywin and thought that the Dragon does not ask permission of the sheep; (B) Rhaegar and/or Lyanna did write letters of explanation but gave them to untrustworthy individuals who never sent them (Petyr Baelish?  Benjen Stark - maybe he lost the letters?  Roose Bolton, who might have seen an opportunity for the destabilization of the North to his future benefit?), (C) Lyanna did send a letter to her father, but Rickard did not want to have his daughter's reputation publicly soiled and he destroyed the letter before Brandon rode south.  

There's no question that Lyanna should not have run off with Rhaegar.  But she was what, 14 or 15; and had been a rather sheltered and politically naive child.  Lyanna might have thought that it would only be Robert Baratheon who would make a fuss, and that Rhaegar would placate him; especially if she had sent off a letter of explanation.  Rhaegar was the supposed adult in the relationship, a 23-year-old husband and father who persuaded Lyanna to come away with him in defiance of the marriage that her father intended.  Rhaegar also knew his father's paranoid, vicious tendencies far better than Lyanna.  I think Rhaegar bears far more responsibility for the Rebellion than Lyanna.  (we also know that Lyanna was kept under guard during at least the last part of her pregnancy; even if she wanted to leave Rhaegar earlier, she may not have been allowed to do so).

 

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29 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Then why does it say that it was Ned’s idea on our wiki, using the app as citation?

It was still a terrible idea.

I have no idea, but the quote I provided is from the app. Perhaps @Rhaenys_Targaryen or @Nittanian can help? 

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On 12/28/2019 at 1:34 PM, Hrulj said:

 

Aerys did what he did but it was idiocy of Lyana and Rhaegar that started the war. Aerys burned people for a decade and no one really stirred over it nor were they bothered enough to start a war. And then she decides to just leave, without leaving a message, getting her brother and father killed and getting the king to demand death of her other brother and bethrothed. All the fault lays on her. If I was Ned I'd piss on her grave daily. 

Perhaps she wrote a letter but the Starks are prideful.  It would mean shame on their house.  Look at the examples of Jon and Robb.  Did Robb care whether his father committed treason?  He did not and would have done the same thing to save him, guilty or not.  Arya was there when her father admitted to treason.  She has no way of knowing whether he's guilty or not but that doesn't give her pause to stop her revenge.  Janos Slynt did not order the execution of Ned Stark and yet Jon Snow killed him to avenge his father.  So even if we assume Lyanna had left a note.  That would not change the Stark response. They would burn that note and hide her vow breaking.  The Starks are full of hubris but are no more honorable than toads.  

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12 minutes ago, Anck Su Namun said:

Perhaps she wrote a letter but the Starks are prideful.  It would mean shame on their house.  Look at the examples of Jon and Robb.  Did Robb care whether his father committed treason?  He did not and would have done the same thing to save him, guilty or not.  Arya was there when her father admitted to treason.  She has no way of knowing whether he's guilty or not but that doesn't give her pause to stop her revenge.  Janos Slynt did not order the execution of Ned Stark and yet Jon Snow killed him to avenge his father.  So even if we assume Lyanna had left a note.  That would not change the Stark response. They would burn that note and hide her vow breaking.  The Starks are full of hubris but are no more honorable than toads.  

 

We don't see that reflected in self thoughts of any characters, that a letter was left. If letter was left why would Brandon and then his father rush to Kings Landing and why would kidnapping story even spread then? Ned was 2nd born son and set to inherit nothing, and Robert ruled Stormlands, it's easire to deal with a pissed off lord paramount than wage war against half the continent. 

 

 

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Just now, Hrulj said:

 

We don't see that reflected in self thoughts of any characters, that a letter was left. If letter was left why would Brandon and then his father rush to Kings Landing and why would kidnapping story even spread then? Ned was 2nd born son and set to inherit nothing, and Robert ruled Stormlands, it's easire to deal with a pissed off lord paramount than wage war against half the continent. 

 

 

Perhaps Benjen got the letter but failed to deliver. Brandon got it and ignored it.  He was hot headed. 

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7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I have no idea, but the quote I provided is from the app. Perhaps @Rhaenys_Targaryen or @Nittanian can help? 

On which page? Perhaps the wording requires some tweeking..

Eddard's entry in the app states too that the betrothal was Robert's idea, but that Eddard carried the proposal to Winterfell, where Rickard agreed to it.

From the app:

Of his siblings,  Eddard loves his sister Lyanna best, and when Robert conceives a passion for her and asks for her hand in marriage, he is delighted. Eddard carries the proposal to his father, Lord Rickard, who agrees to the betrothal.

 

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1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

On which page? Perhaps the wording requires some tweeking..

Eddard's entry in the app states too that the betrothal was Robert's idea, but that Eddard carried the proposal to Winterfell, where Rickard agreed to it.

From the app:

Of his siblings,  Eddard loves his sister Lyanna best, and when Robert conceives a passion for her and asks for her hand in marriage, he is delighted. Eddard carries the proposal to his father, Lord Rickard, who agrees to the betrothal.

 

I’m not sure, I didn’t check the wiki. I did post a part of Robert’s bio from the app that says basically the same thing as Eddard’s:

“Thanks to his friendship with Eddard, he develops a fondness for Lyanna Stark, and in time he proposes a betrothal. Lord Rickard Stark agrees to this, even as Lyanna recognizes that Robert will never keep to one bed despite Eddard’s assurances that Robert loves her.”

ETA:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen, I think it’s Robert's page on the wiki, and yes, seems to be the case of tweaking w/ the phrasing a bit:

Robert fell in love with Lyanna StarkEddard's younger sister.[8] In time, Lyanna's father, Lord Rickard Stark of Winterfell, agreed to betroth her to Robert.[33]

ETA2: it does say “Rickard agreed”, making it kinda clear it wasn’t his idea, but it doesn’t say whose idea it was.

ETA3: @Rhaenys_Targaryen, found it. It’s Rickard’s:

Rickard negotiated the betrothals of Brandon and Lyanna to Catelyn Tully of Riverrun and Robert Baratheon of Storm's End, respectively.[3] According to Barbrey Dustin the southronmarriages were the idea of Rickard's maester at the time, Walys.[8]

 

Edited by kissdbyfire

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11 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

However, Ned had grown from child to young man in Robert's company, not in Winterfell watching his little sister grow from small child to teenager.  Lyanna's character, her desires, might have been less known to Ned. Also, he might have been more used to Southern values, i.e. the concept of noblewomen being treasured chattel who would swoon over the prospect of being loved by the mighty Robert Baratheon, rather than remembering that many Northern girls were raised expecting to ride and wield weapons and would not appreciate being kept in silks while their husbands sired bastards on other women.  

 

I always see this written and i have to wonder, why people assume Lyanna was like that?? The only northern women warrior are the Mormonts as far as we know and they are warrior because of the IB, hell Lyanna's father said hell no to her wielding a sword. Northern girls are raised with the same expectations as the southern ones and with the same notion of bastardy.

PD: Why would any of them give anytging to LF or Roose??

Edited by frenin

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