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Angel Eyes

How much did Ned care about Lyanna?

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On 12/28/2019 at 1:06 PM, kissdbyfire said:

You mean Rickard, right? Regardless, I thought Robert had asked for Lyanna’s hand... do you recall where it’s said it was Rickard who arranged the marriage? I know I can’t remember, and have no idea off the top of my head why I was thinking it had been Robert. :dunno:

Rickard was her father and Lord of Winterfell. She could not get married without his consent. By then, of course, Robert was Lord of Storm's End, so he would have asked Rickard for her hand, not Ned -- although I believe there was something about Ned presenting the proposal to his father in Robert's stead. By brokered, I'm not saying that Rickard planned all of this, but that his approval was necessary for it to happen and Ned could not overrule him. So in all likelihood, Robert made the offer and Rickon agreed because it tied nicely in with the other marriage machinations that were going on between Winterfell, Riverrun, the Eyrie and Casterly Rock.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

By brokered, I'm not saying that Rickard planned all of this, but that his approval was necessary for it to happen

Then maybe “brokered” wasn’t the best choice of word. 

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On 12/29/2019 at 1:01 AM, Nagini's Neville said:

I also doubt that Lyanna would have become like Cersei, but Robert raped Cersei regularly, so that for sure would have traumatized and changed Lyanna.

Meh, I'm not so sure about that's how it would have played out. Robert was tortured by the memory of Lyanna and took it out on Cersei. If he actually had Lyanna, several things would have been different:

Robert would not be king and may or may not have turned into the drunken brute that he was.

He would not have resented Lyanna for not being his true love. (Although he may have grown to resent her for other reasons; there is a big difference between wanting and having.)

He would have married more for love than duty, and his wife would not be a cold conniving, back-stabbing, biotch who was, in the end, trying to kill him.

I'm not saying it would have all been wine and roses at Storm's End, but it's doubtful it would have turned as ugly as it did in King's Landing.

 

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6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Meh, I'm not so sure about that's how it would have played out. Robert was tortured by the memory of Lyanna and took it out on Cersei. If he actually had Lyanna, several things would have been different:

Robert would not be king and may or may not have turned into the drunken brute that he was.

He would not have resented Lyanna for not being his true love. (Although he may have grown to resent her for other reasons; there is a big difference between wanting and having.)

He would have married more for love than duty, and his wife would not be a cold conniving, back-stabbing, biotch who was, in the end, trying to kill him.

I'm not saying it would have all been wine and roses at Storm's End, but it's doubtful it would have turned as ugly as it did in King's Landing.

 

Idk like @Nagini's Neville was saying earlier I think it takes a special kind of person to be capable of rape & infidelity to the extent Robert is & the potential for that was always going to be there. Certainly Cersei exacerbated things but Robert was always going to find something to behave the way he does. He isn't happy in life & doesn't know how to deal with his emotions. Removing Cersei from the situation would relieve some of that stress but there would be other things to stress him out. I think, in the end, he was always going to be a drunken brute & rapist no matter who he was with. 

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9 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Idk like @Nagini's Neville was saying earlier I think it takes a special kind of person to be capable of rape & infidelity to the extent Robert is & the potential for that was always going to be there. Certainly Cersei exacerbated things but Robert was always going to find something to behave the way he does. He isn't happy in life & doesn't know how to deal with his emotions. Removing Cersei from the situation would relieve some of that stress but there would be other things to stress him out. I think, in the end, he was always going to be a drunken brute & rapist no matter who he was with. 

So is that what Ned wanted for his sister?

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Just now, Angel Eyes said:

So is that what Ned wanted for his sister?

No, of course not. Ned didn't know Robert would turn out this way. Sure, there may have been some signs but we are all a little wild when we are young. 

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On 12/29/2019 at 2:39 AM, frenin said:

He fathered Bella when he was about to be killed, quite literally hunted down door by door and we don't know when Gendry was fathered, "not that i care about the "he loves her he doesn't", absurd debate but, just for the sake of it:dunno::fencing:, as i said before, the idea that  for cheating you don't love someone, is cheap puritanism,  Hell, no one doubts that Davos loves his wife, why not??

Lyanna btw, never doubts that Robert "loved" her, but that the love wasn't enough for him to stop whoring around.

This is quite hilarious. Bella tells us that her mother was Robert's favorite, so we are to assume Robert wasn't just confining himself to one of the Peach's ladies. He is there for a unknown time hiding out from his defeat at Ashford and perhaps other setbacks after. Robert wasn't having a last fling at the Peach, thinking of his coming death. It was Robert continuing to be Robert.

The funniest part of this is the straw man argument of either accepting Robert's behavior or being a advocate of "cheap puritanism." Seeing honesty as guide doesn't imply monogamy and strict abstinence of sex outside of marriage vows. The problem isn't that Robert has sex outside of his marriage or his betrothal. The problem is the sleazy, lying, and abusive way he treats Lyanna and Cersei. Lyanna knew his "nature" and wanted no part of it. Robert tells the women he sleeps with he loves them, lying as he does so, and abandons almost all of them. What Robert has with Lyanna is just as much "love" as what he had with Bella's, Gendry's, or Edric's mothers. The only difference is that Robert thought Lyanna was his and his alone. 

As to Gendry's age, we have a good estimate in the wiki.It is quite likely Gendry is conceived some time between Robert's arrival in King's Landing before his coronation and his argument with Ned, and Ned's return to King's Landing with the news of Lyanna's death. Those being the outside parameters. Late 283 AC to early 284AC being more likely if Gendry is truly born in 284. All of which would mean Robert conceives Gendry before he knows Lyanna is dead.

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59 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

This is quite hilarious. Bella tells us that her mother was Robert's favorite, so we are to assume Robert wasn't just confining himself to one of the Peach's ladies. He is there for a unknown time hiding out from his defeat at Ashford and perhaps other setbacks after. Robert wasn't having a last fling at the Peach, thinking of his coming death. It was Robert continuing to be Robert.

 The funniest part of this is the straw man argument of either accepting Robert's behavior or being a advocate of "cheap puritanism." Seeing honesty as guide doesn't imply monogamy and strict abstinence of sex outside of marriage vows. The problem isn't that Robert has sex outside of his marriage or his betrothal. The problem is the sleazy, lying, and abusive way he treats Lyanna and Cersei. Lyanna knew his "nature" and wanted no part of it. Robert tells the women he sleeps with he loves them, lying as he does so, and abandons almost all of them. What Robert has with Lyanna is just as much "love" as what he had with Bella's, Gendry's, or Edric's mothers. The only difference is that Robert thought Lyanna was his and his alone. 

We are told that Robert was in there alone, hiding from the loyalist and with no reinforcement whatsoever and that he was being hunted down, so yes he's having a last fling.

 

As i said before, i don't care nor i think it really matters whether he loved Lyanna or not.

False dilemma, not strawman:P,  the argument i replied was simple,  Robert has sex while "being in love" ergo he can't love because if he loved he was in love he  wouldn't have sex, that's the argument i referred as cheap puritanism, Lyanna knew that he wouldn't keep to one bed and wanted no part of it, the rest is, by now at least, fans putting their thoughts in her words. Btw, in what way does he treat Lyanna?? Wedon't really know how they were back then and now has been 15 years of idealistic obssesion, which as any obssesion is not healthy.

Is it?? I don't know if her cared for any of them and he certainly never said or imply he loved Cersei, everyone, but Jaime, admits that he deeply cared for Lyanna.

 

 

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

As to Gendry's age, we have a good estimate in the wiki.It is quite likely Gendry is conceived some time between Robert's arrival in King's Landing before his coronation and his argument with Ned, and Ned's return to King's Landing with the news of Lyanna's death. Those being the outside parameters. Late 283 AC to early 284AC being more likely if Gendry is truly born in 284. All of which would mean Robert conceives Gendry before he knows Lyanna is dead.

When does Ned bring the news of Lyanna's death?? Does he bring them himself  or does he send a raven  or something and later reunites with old Jon and Robert later?? That seems like a leap but i already said what i think of the love matter.

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13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Idk like @Nagini's Neville was saying earlier I think it takes a special kind of person to be capable of rape & infidelity to the extent Robert is & the potential for that was always going to be there. Certainly Cersei exacerbated things but Robert was always going to find something to behave the way he does. He isn't happy in life & doesn't know how to deal with his emotions. Removing Cersei from the situation would relieve some of that stress but there would be other things to stress him out. I think, in the end, he was always going to be a drunken brute & rapist no matter who he was with. 

So we get information on Robert raping Cersei from Cersei’s POV and she’s not the most reliable person. She misconstrues things, even in her own thoughts, to suit her view of herself and others. She plays the victim when it suits her. I’m not stating that Robert didn’t force himself on her but Robert is a medieval King and like other medieval lords/ kings he expects his queen/ Lady to fulfill her marital responsibilities. We may not like it when we view it with our modern-day sensibilities but that was the reality of noble ladies of those days. Cersei stating that Robert felt embarrassed after the drunken nights when he forced himself on her, indicates that Robert had more of a conscience that other Lords of that time.

As to Robert raping Lyanna, he may have ended up forcing himself on her (if we believe Cersei’s thoughts) if she resisted him and there was no love between the two. Or we may have got a situation where after Lyanna gave him a couple of kids, Robert may have left her alone as he idealized the woman and loved Ned. There is also a third possibility that Robert may have given up his philandering ways and been a totally committed husband to Lyannna and the two may have grown to love each other like Ned and Cat. 

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6 hours ago, teej6 said:

So we get information on Robert raping Cersei from Cersei’s POV and she’s not the most reliable person. She misconstrues things, even in her own thoughts, to suit her view of herself and others. She plays the victim when it suits her.

Sure, she is no peach but I don't think we have any reason to believe she lied about these particular incidents. At any rate we know he abuses her & sleeps with other women. 

6 hours ago, teej6 said:

I’m not stating that Robert didn’t force himself on her but Robert is a medieval King and like other medieval lords/ kings he expects his queen/ Lady to fulfill her marital responsibilities.

Well if he did force himself on her, & I believe he did, he is a rapist regardless of the times he lives in IMO. I understand he expects his queen to fulfill her marital responsibilities but that doesn't give him a pass. Every Lord in Westeros probably expects the same from their wife but not all of them would be willing to force it upon her. Even Tyrion has misgivings about forcing himself upon Sansa & while he is creepy & crosses the line, in the end he cannot bring himself to do it. I have a hard time picturing Ned forcing himself on Catelyn or Jon Arryn on Lysa, Edmure on Roslin etc. 

6 hours ago, teej6 said:

We may not like it when we view it with our modern-day sensibilities but that was the reality of noble ladies of those days. Cersei stating that Robert felt embarrassed after the drunken nights when he forced himself on her, indicates that Robert had more of a conscience that other Lords of that time.

Modern day sensibilities or no forcibly taking someone is wrong. Robert being embarrassed doesn't mean he has more of a conscience than other lords. Like I said, I think there are many Lords who could not bring themselves to physically force their wife to do their "marital duty" drunk or not. Robert feeling embarrassed shows he knows it's wrong. 

6 hours ago, teej6 said:

As to Robert raping Lyanna, he may have ended up forcing himself on her (if we believe Cersei’s thoughts) if she resisted him and there was no love between the two.

It's hard to say but I don't think there would necessarily have to be no love between them. Robert gets drunk & wants what he wants & at the time thinks it's ok. He sobers up & realizes it really isn't ok but it doesn't stop him from doing it again. 

6 hours ago, teej6 said:

Or we may have got a situation where after Lyanna gave him a couple of kids, Robert may have left her alone as he idealized the woman and loved Ned. There is also a third possibility that Robert may have given up his philandering ways and been a totally committed husband to Lyannna and the two may have grown to love each other like Ned and Cat. 

Yeah I mean we are all just speculating as to Robert & Lyanna's relationship but I think if anything stopped Robert from being abusive to Lyanna it may be that she is Ned's sister. I don't think a man like Robert could ever idealize a woman. He thinks so highly of Lyanna because she is gone. If she were here he would eventually treat her the same as he does every other woman IMO. 

I suppose it's possible that he would've grown into a different person if Lyanna had been his wife but my point is some people just have it in them to be able to inflict abuse & pain on others in order to get what they want & some don't. Robert clearly does. It's my opinion that someone who is capable of these things is always going to have the potential for them to come out regardless of who they are with. 

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21 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Idk like @Nagini's Neville was saying earlier I think it takes a special kind of person to be capable of rape & infidelity to the extent Robert is & the potential for that was always going to be there. Certainly Cersei exacerbated things but Robert was always going to find something to behave the way he does. He isn't happy in life & doesn't know how to deal with his emotions. Removing Cersei from the situation would relieve some of that stress but there would be other things to stress him out. I think, in the end, he was always going to be a drunken brute & rapist no matter who he was with. 

Again, though, this is assuming that Robert would have turned out exactly the same with Lyanna. But as I noted, much of the stressors that led to Robert's behavior would not be there. He hated being king and everything to do with it; he resented Cersei for not being Lyanna and Cersei resented him back, and it just snowballed from there. He basically spent his life chasing ghosts where with Lyanna it would at least have been his desired outcome rather than something he was forced into by circumstance.

So I have no doubt that Robert would have had his by-blows, but this was not altogether unexpected for lords in a feudal period -- as long as he kept the bastards at arm's length. Even Cat did not begrudge Ned his bastard, just that he brought him to Winterfell and raised him openly. Would Lyanna be traumatized if Robert did the same thing? I'll bet not, because she expected it from the very start and she never loved him to begin with. And unless things went really south with Lyanna (which is certainly possible), then no, I don't think she would be subjected to repeated drunken rapes.

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18 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, though, this is assuming that Robert would have turned out exactly the same with Lyanna. But as I noted, much of the stressors that led to Robert's behavior would not be there. He hated being king and everything to do with it; he resented Cersei for not being Lyanna and Cersei resented him back, and it just snowballed from there. He basically spent his life chasing ghosts where with Lyanna it would at least have been his desired outcome rather than something he was forced into by circumstance.

So I have no doubt that Robert would have had his by-blows, but this was not altogether unexpected for lords in a feudal period -- as long as he kept the bastards at arm's length. Even Cat did not begrudge Ned his bastard, just that he brought him to Winterfell and raised him openly. Would Lyanna be traumatized if Robert did the same thing? I'll bet not, because she expected it from the very start and she never loved him to begin with. And unless things went really south with Lyanna (which is certainly possible), then no, I don't think she would be subjected to repeated drunken rapes.

I know we don’t agree often, but we do here. Sure, it’s impossible to make predictions on how a relationship between Robert and Lyanna would have would have turmed out. But I also think Robert and Cersei definitely bring out the absolute worst in each other. Any relationship either one has w/ basically anyone else would have been better/less horrible than the one they had. 

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, though, this is assuming that Robert would have turned out exactly the same with Lyanna. But as I noted, much of the stressors that led to Robert's behavior would not be there. He hated being king and everything to do with it; he resented Cersei for not being Lyanna and Cersei resented him back, and it just snowballed from there. He basically spent his life chasing ghosts where with Lyanna it would at least have been his desired outcome rather than something he was forced into by circumstance.

Well, he wouldn't have to turn out exactly the same. I know it's hard to predict & we can't really say for sure but let's say he married Lyanna but still ends up King. He still hates being King & still drinks too much & eventually maybe resents Lyanna for whatever & lets it out in a similar way. Or he isn't King but something else stresses him so he starts drinking too much & Lyanna starts resenting him & he starts resenting her & he is right back in the same situation. 

 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar
Saved before I was done

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, though, this is assuming that Robert would have turned out exactly the same with Lyanna. But as I noted, much of the stressors that led to Robert's behavior would not be there. He hated being king and everything to do with it; he resented Cersei for not being Lyanna and Cersei resented him back, and it just snowballed from there. He basically spent his life chasing ghosts where with Lyanna it would at least have been his desired outcome rather than something he was forced into by circumstance.

Sorry, I saved before I was done. I'm not trying to say Robert would always be the same exact person no matter his life circumstances only that these behaviors are at the basic core of who he is. He is always going to prone to alcoholism, he is always going to be capable of abusing his wife if she angers him, he is always going to be capable of forcing himself upon his wife. Will he always do that? Maybe not but there are those who could say they would never, under any circumstance, do these things. Robert isn't one of them. 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

Sure, I agree, much of it isn't altogether unexpected. Lyanna may not have been traumatized but she does have the wolf blood. While she may have expected it & it wouldn't traumatize her she might not accept it very well either. I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibility, knowing what we know of Lyanna, that she would be angry & argue with Robert over fathering bastards especially because she had misgivings to the marriage to begin with because of Robert's womanizing ways. 

I agree Cersei brings out the worst in Robert & maybe he wouldn't have gotten to the point that he drunkenly raped her but I think it's certainly a possibility. Any number of things could get him to this point - it wouldn't have to be Cersei. 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I know we don’t agree often, but we do here. Sure, it’s impossible to make predictions on how a relationship between Robert and Lyanna would have would have turmed out. But I also think Robert and Cersei definitely bring out the absolute worst in each other. Any relationship either one has w/ basically anyone else would have been better/less horrible than the one they had. 

Yeah, I agree with this. It's always going to be worse when you stick two toxic people together. 

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23 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, he wouldn't have to turn out exactly the same. I know it's hard to predict & we can't really say for sure but let's say he married Lyanna but still ends up King. He still hates being King & still drinks too much & eventually maybe resents Lyanna for whatever & lets it out in a similar way. Or he isn't King but something else stresses him so he starts drinking too much & Lyanna starts resenting him & he starts resenting her & he is right back in the same situation. 

 

I don't see how he could have just married Lyanna and still become king. If all had gone according to plan, they would have been Lord and Lady of Storm's End. The only reason he became king was because Lyanna was kidnapped and raped, supposedly. After that ordeal, there is no way Lyanna could become his queen given the attitudes of mores of the times -- even if this story is true, which is unlikely, and she was the complete victim here.

Yes, as I said, all kinds of things could have happened to turn their marriage sour. But there is no reason to conclude this is inevitable just because of how things turned out with Cersei. They could just as easily have grown quite content with each other -- as content as any other lord or lady -- in their castle by the sea.

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22 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sorry, I saved before I was done. I'm not trying to say Robert would always be the same exact person no matter his life circumstances only that these behaviors are at the basic core of who he is. He is always going to prone to alcoholism, he is always going to be capable of abusing his wife if she angers him, he is always going to be capable of forcing himself upon his wife. Will he always do that? Maybe not but there are those who could say they would never, under any circumstance, do these things. Robert isn't one of them. 

His basic core? I don't think so. He's a loudmouth and a braggart, but the drunkenness and violence was more likely a by-product of his discontent with his life and his wife and the feeling of loss he's carried all these years. The hostility toward Cersei was born of that, and she also had the perfect personality to rebel against it and in the end fuel it. They just clashed. Maybe that would have happened with Lyanna, but maybe not. Cersei seemed to have a broad misperception of Robert when they married and then felt betrayed when it turned out he was still pining for Lyanna. None of that would have existed with Lyanna, and she already had a solid understanding of what kind of man he was -- so there would have been no disappointment, no sense of betrayal and most likely no escalating hostility over the years.

It is a great misunderstanding to think that people do the things they do because of some endemic flaw in their character or personality. More often than not, people do the things they do based on their situations and their environment. Personalities are made, not born. There is no reason to think Robert would behave toward Lyanna the way he behaved toward Cersei because their relationship, influenced by their situations and environment, would have been markedly different.

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9 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

His basic core? I don't think so. He's a loudmouth and a braggart, but the drunkenness and violence was more likely a by-product of his discontent with his life and his wife and the feeling of loss he's carried all these years. The hostility toward Cersei was born of that, and she also had the perfect personality to rebel against it and in the end fuel it. They just clashed.

Yeah I disagree. I think there are tons of people discontent with their life, dealing with stuff they don't know how to & not all of them turn into alcoholics & abuse their wife. You are either capable of that or you aren't. 

11 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Maybe that would have happened with Lyanna, but maybe not.

Right, I mean that's basically what I'm saying. Maybe it wouldn't have but I think in life there is always a potential for things to get rough and not go your way & Robert is always going to have the potential to deal with things in this manner. 

12 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Cersei seemed to have a broad misperception of Robert when they married and then felt betrayed when it turned out he was still pining for Lyanna. None of that would have existed with Lyanna, and she already had a solid understanding of what kind of man he was -- so there would have been no disappointment, no sense of betrayal and most likely no escalating hostility over the years.

That isn't necessarily true. If Lyanna expressed her concerns to Ned, Robert, Rickard - whoever & was convincingly reassured that Robert would be a good husband only to have him not be she most definitely could feel a sense of betrayal & increasing hostility toward that. Even if she goes into it knowing exactly who he is that doesn't mean she is going to be happy about it. She didn't want to marry him because of it. If she were made to marry him anyway she would still not like that he does these things. 

16 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

is a great misunderstanding to think that people do the things they do because of some endemic flaw in their character or personality. More often than not, people do the things they do based on their situations and their environment. Personalities are made, not born. There is no reason to think Robert would behave toward Lyanna the way he behaved toward Cersei because their relationship, influenced by their situations and environment, would have been markedly different

Well it's nature vs nuture right? I agree your circumstances help frame who you are but that doesn't mean nature has nothing to do with it. People learn how to cope with things, learn how to communicate with people etc. Robert, at some point, has learned to cope by drinking & whoring, learned to communicate by yelling & being abusive. These are the set of coping mechanisms he was either born with or learned over time (likely a combination of both) so I don't see any reason to believe Robert would have behaved any differently toward Lyanna than he did Cersei. Certainly Lyanna may have behaved differently toward Robert than Cersei did which would influence Roberts actions but the potential is always going to be there. He was a womanizer long before Cersei - hence Lyanna's reluctance to marry him to begin with. 

To use a real life example: I know a guy that beat on & cheated on his girlfriend repeatedly. Let's call him Bob. Bob's girlfriend Jane reacted to Bob's cheating by breaking his things, screaming & yelling & threatening. She reacted to his violence with violence of her own. Eventually Bob left Jane for Sarah. Bob went right back to his old ways but Sarah reacted to his cheating by asking for a break in the relationship. When she thought they had worked things out they got back together. Bob ended up man handling Sarah & she reacted by calling the cops, getting a restraining order, & breaking up with him. Things never got as bad with Sarah as they did with Jane because Sarah reacted differently to Bob than Jane did. He didn't get the repeated chances so he didn't get to cheat repeatedly, didn't get to beat her up. It's similar with Cersei & Lyanna. Cersei is toxic & acts & reacts toxically towards Robert giving him the opportunity to tune it up a notch & feel justified. Maybe Lyanna wouldn't have given him that opportunity but I think to say he wouldn't have been a drunken abuser if he only had the right woman is absurd. 

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4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

much of the stressors

Oh, I didn't know if you were stressed it is okay. In that case... 

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

he resented Cersei for not being Lyanna and Cersei resented him back, and it just snowballed from there.

No, you let her be and have all the girls that willing want to have sex with you.

You do realize that you are defending a rapist right?

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

not altogether unexpected for lords in a feudal period -

Even if true, there are lots of things that happened in the past, like slavery, and I condemn slave holding characters as well. 

3 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

these behaviors are at the basic core of who he is. He is always going to prone to alcoholism, he is always going to be capable of abusing his wife if she angers him, he is always going to be capable of forcing himself upon his wife. 

Agreed!

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

people do the things they do based on their situations and their environment. Personalities are made, not born. 

Oh the poor poor criminals, murderers and rapists in the world. I disagree, lots of families have someone that is not a good person even though they grew up in the same situation and environment. 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

. I think there are tons of people discontent with their life, dealing with stuff they don't know how to & not all of them turn into alcoholics & abuse their wife. You are either capable of that or you aren't. 

100% correct.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

she most definitely could feel a sense of betrayal & increasing hostility toward that.

Yup.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree your circumstances help frame who you are but that doesn't mean nature has nothing to do with it. People learn how to cope with things, learn how to communicate with people etc. Robert, at some point, has learned to cope by drinking & whoring, learned to communicate by yelling & being abusive. These are the set of coping mechanisms he was either born with or learned over time (likely a combination of both) so I don't see any reason to believe Robert would have behaved any differently toward Lyanna than he did Cersei.

Agreed!

 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Maybe Lyanna wouldn't have given him that opportunity but I think to say he wouldn't have been a drunken abuser if he only had the right woman is absurd. 

Absolutely!

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6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

He basically spent his life chasing ghosts where with Lyanna it would at least have been his desired outcome rather than something he was forced into by circumstance.

I have my doubts that Robert's "desired outcome" would actually have ended up being the thing he desired. He didn't know or understand Lyanna as a person at all, as Ned flat-out tells him (albeit long after her death). There's a reason why the author chose to never depict a single interaction between Robert and Lyanna and even on the one occasion where we know they were in the same place at the same time (at Harrenhal), Robert chose to spend his time drinking with his male buddies instead of talking or dancing with Lyanna.

Robert's idolization of Lyanna did not represent something real that he engaged in in good faith. She was a fantasy of his that existed only in his imagination. Making a life with the actual person she was would quickly have disabused him of that imagined version. And then where would Robert be, if he had to deal with the real person Lyanna was rather than the ideal he wanted and thought her to be? He would not have been living his desired outcome, of that I'm pretty sure.

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