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The Witcher: Evil is Evil


AncalagonTheBlack

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There is one image from this season's Witcher that has stayed with me all these days since I saw it: the appearance of the Wild Hunt wherever it was Yen, Geralt and Ciri arrived via that portal.

That was the single most impressive image of the whole show, for me.  It was so like the descriptions I've read by people who lived through this from about the 5th C on, in the Danubian-Balkan lands, of Huns, of Mongols, of Turks, of Tatars, suddenly appearing on the horizon, riding down their caravan, their village.

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I finished it today. A little surprised at the

Spoiler

Emhyr

reveal so soon, but given the popularity of the games I guess they felt they couldn’t draw that mystery out as long as the books did. They seem to be compensating by not revealing that Rience’s employer is

Spoiler

Vilgefortz


who didn’t seem to get much screen time considering his future role.

Eskel getting killed so early was surprising, especially when there were so many more witchers than there are in the books (although I think they all died in the finale and it’s just the book witchers left now). Made me think the writers did that instead of using one of the new characters deliberately to surprise the book readers/gamers.

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On 12/29/2021 at 5:14 PM, 3CityApache said:

For some reason they decided to reveal the biggest twist of the series, that Emhyr var Emreis aka White Flame is in fact Duny, that he haven't learnt till the last book, in the second season finale.

And yet

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at the same time they apparently decided to keep the fact Vilgefortz is the second worst villain of the series hidden from the viewers for a little longer. Until the coup of Thanned probably, which will take place in season 3.

 

As to that spoiler, I always figured it'd be pretty hard to hide--unless they had different actors for Duny and Emhyr (maybe they did--I can't remember). Either way, I remember learning that detail in the book and not being sure if it was a spoiler/twist, or if I'd just missed it the whole time!

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1 hour ago, Maltaran said:

I finished it today. A little surprised at the

  Hide contents

Emhyr

reveal so soon, but given the popularity of the games I guess they felt they couldn’t draw that mystery out as long as the books did. They seem to be compensating by not revealing that Rience’s employer is

  Reveal hidden contents

Vilgefortz


who didn’t seem to get much screen time considering his future role.

Eskel getting killed so early was surprising, especially when there were so many more witchers than there are in the books (although I think they all died in the finale and it’s just the book witchers left now). Made me think the writers did that instead of using one of the new characters deliberately to surprise the book readers/gamers.

You know, I didn't understand the Emhyr spoiler as I played the games. 

Spoiler

I thought he meant Ciri was his "daughter" because he took Cintra. I feel like the game didn't really telegraph he was her real father. I thought it was some strange, "You're my daughter since I destroyed your kingdom and you're the last heir" deal. When I got to that point in the books and it all caught up to me, I thought it was cool how CDPR didn't outright spoil it. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

Either way, I remember learning that detail in the book and not being sure if it was a spoiler/twist, or if I'd just missed it the whole time!

Really? It was a jaw-dropping twist for me. But I can understand their decision, it's probably the problem with wanting to use the same actor in later seasons. On the other hand I'm not really sure how many non-reader viewers would even realise the emperor is Duny, we only saw him briefly in the first season, and mostly in his hedgehog form after all.

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Honestly I think they screwed up a little bit with the casting of Rience and Emhyr, since the two actors look kind of alike and only ever feature in brief scenes and never together. I thought they were the same person for their first few appearances!

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8 hours ago, 3CityApache said:

Really? It was a jaw-dropping twist for me. But I can understand their decision, it's probably the problem with wanting to use the same actor in later seasons. On the other hand I'm not really sure how many non-reader viewers would even realise the emperor is Duny, we only saw him briefly in the first season, and mostly in his hedgehog form after all.

Ciri's vision in the final episode where she was dancing with Mousesack also had Duny and Pavetta in it, and he was also in a vision in at least one other episode this season, so the show is doing as much as it can to make sure the viewers recognise Emhyr as Ciri's father.

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2 hours ago, Denvek said:

the show is doing as much as it can to make sure the viewers recognise Emhyr as Ciri's father.

Yeah, sure, after they decided to reveal him as her father so early. I meant hypothetical situation when they follow the books and not reveal this, yet still use the same actor. I think only a bunch of most perceptive viewers would realise the truth. 

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14 hours ago, Centrist Simon Steele said:

You know, I didn't understand the Emhyr spoiler as I played the games.

I didn't read the books or play the games beyond a bit of the first one, but I googled some after the first season and I have some questions about him:
 

Spoiler

Didn't Emhyr also want to marry Ciri? Is he some kind of pervert or mad?

Since he also killed Pavetta, do I understand correctly that he never truly cared for her, but just used and manipulated her? Did he somehow know that she'd turn out to have Elder powers when he made his bargain with her worthless father? BTW, I still can't get over the fact that a mother has no say in her child getting traded away like that.

Shouldn't Emhyr be significantly older than depicted, or did he stop aging when in hedgehog form? Why was he in that form, BTW?

Oh, and who are the Elders if they are not just elves?

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6 hours ago, kungtotte said:

Honestly I think they screwed up a little bit with the casting of Rience and Emhyr, since the two actors look kind of alike and only ever feature in brief scenes and never together. I thought they were the same person for their first few appearances!

Luckily one now has a burned face.

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4 hours ago, Maia said:

I didn't read the books or play the games beyond a bit of the first one, but I googled some after the first season and I have some questions about him:
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Didn't Emhyr also want to marry Ciri? Is he some kind of pervert or mad?

Since he also killed Pavetta, do I understand correctly that he never truly cared for her, but just used and manipulated her? Did he somehow know that she'd turn out to have Elder powers when he made his bargain with her worthless father? BTW, I still can't get over the fact that a mother has no say in her child getting traded away like that.

Shouldn't Emhyr be significantly older than depicted, or did he stop aging when in hedgehog form? Why was he in that form, BTW?

Oh, and who are the Elders if they are not just elves?

So it's a been awhile, but I'll do the best I can. If anyone else has a fresher memory or wants to correct my answers, please do!

Spoiler

Didn't Emhyr also want to marry Ciri? Is he some kind of pervert or mad?

I don't remember if the book went into specifics, but I remember it being kind of Game of Thrones like: Ciri was the last surviving heir of a defeated country, and if her heir was also Emhyr's heir, then there wouldn't be any uprisings or fighting against Niflgaard in the future. I believe he fully intended to wed her, though again, the books didn't get into the details like Martin's books do on similar subjects.

Since he also killed Pavetta, do I understand correctly that he never truly cared for her, but just used and manipulated her? Did he somehow know that she'd turn out to have Elder powers when he made his bargain with her worthless father? BTW, I still can't get over the fact that a mother has no say in her child getting traded away like that.

I'm not sure how the show is handling this, but it might be different than the books--just in case they keep in line with the books, I won't spoil how the books dealt with this unless you want me to.

Shouldn't Emhyr be significantly older than depicted, or did he stop aging when in hedgehog form? Why was he in that form, BTW?

Yeah, he's definitely supposed to be older. He was a creature in the books (not a hedgehog like this shows--so I believe), and he was cursed by enemies of his father. He'd been cursed since being a child, though I feel like the show changed this.

Oh, and who are the Elders if they are not just elves?

I believe the elders aren't specified at all, or I can't remember. I always assumed they were a type of elf. Elder blood is a gene or genetic trait passed down from Lara Dorren, and it means those born with it will have powerful magic.

The issue with a lot of this is that Sapokowski, while building this world, didn't always go into details. Some things aren't clearly spelled out, and couple that with the years since I've read the books (rereading them now though), there are some gaps.

 

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Watched halfway through the season so far. Enjoyed these last two episodes (4 and 5) better, now that they're less Kaer Morhen focused... and the other thing that stands out is just how much it all reads, visually, as fantasy. Have to say the CG, costuming, and for the most part the film making craft has improved from last season as well. It's not going to set the world on fire with its editing and direction, but it feels a lot more competent.

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On the marriage thing:

Spoiler

Emhyr was going to marry a double and pretend it was the heir of Cintra to solidify his claim. So a Jeyne/Arya situation from A Dance with Dragons. He never planned to marry his actual daughter as he rightfully thought that was perverse.

 

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1 hour ago, Werthead said:

On the marriage thing:

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Emhyr was going to marry a double and pretend it was the heir of Cintra to solidify his claim. So a Jeyne/Arya situation from A Dance with Dragons. He never planned to marry his actual daughter as he rightfully thought that was perverse.

 

That's right--I forgot about that.

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On Pavetta's death. 

Spoiler

He didn't kill her, at least not on purpose. The storm that sank their ship was magically caused by Vilgefortz. Duny was about to hide with Pavetta and Ciri in a magic resistant cabin, when he learnt Pavetta left Ciri in Cintra. He went completely mad and in the turmoil Pavetta dropped out of the ship. His own death was then faked. 

 

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On 1/4/2022 at 4:53 PM, Centrist Simon Steele said:

So it's a been awhile, but I'll do the best I can.

But there is also the Elder language, which is the language of magic? How does this compute with the Elderness being a gene or the Elders being just the descendents of one special individual?

 

On 1/4/2022 at 7:05 PM, Werthead said:

On the marriage thing:

Is Ciri being Emhyr's daughter treated as a secret known only to a few in the books, rather than something announced publically, like in the show? Because it is the only way that this

 

Spoiler

marriage to a double

could make any political sense. I mean, with Ciri being his daughter, he already has a pretty good claim on Cintra and her heirs would be his heirs no matter who she marries.

 

23 hours ago, 3CityApache said:

On Pavetta's death. 

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He didn't kill her, at least not on purpose. The storm that sank their ship was magically caused by Vilgefortz. Duny was about to hide with Pavetta and Ciri in a magic resistant cabin, when he learnt Pavetta left Ciri in Cintra. He went completely mad and in the turmoil Pavetta dropped out of the ship. His own death was then faked. 

Could you elaborate, please? I have trouble picturing how it could happen without him being somehow responsible.

Spoiler

Was she so terrified of him that she jumped? Did he shove her? Also, what were his real feelings toward her? Did he somehow know in advance about her Elder heritage and was just trying to exploit it? Or did he actually love her?

Also I thought that

Spoiler

Vilgefortz

 

secretly works for him? So was it all a pre-arranged fake-out? Was he trying to take revenge on Calanthe by robbing her of her daughter and granddaughter?

Please be patient with me, folks, I am just trying to wrap my head around some confusing plot points!

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22 minutes ago, Maia said:

But there is also the Elder language, which is the language of magic? How does this compute with the Elderness being a gene or the Elders being just the descendents of one special individual?

I'm not sure on this, to be honest. Unless someone else knows, it seems Sapkowski is rather vague on the "elders" themselves. I always assumed they were elves.

Is Ciri being Emhyr's daughter treated as a secret known only to a few in the books, rather than something announced publically, like in the show? Because it is the only way that this

In the books, this is a huge twist in the last book I believe. You don't know 

Spoiler

Duny and Emyhr are the same person.

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marriage to a double

could make any political sense. I mean, with Ciri being his daughter, he already has a pretty good claim on Cintra and her heirs would be his heirs no matter who she marries.

 

Could you elaborate, please? I have trouble picturing how it could happen without him being somehow responsible.

I don't know the answer to this question directly because I quit on episode 2 or 3 of this season, but my best guess is that in the book Emyhr was definitely not responsible, and he loved Pavetta, and perhaps in the show they are changing this to him murdering her. The writers of the show make changes like this all the time.

 

 

I bolded answers in your comments above.

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On 1/4/2022 at 7:05 PM, Werthead said:

On the marriage thing:

  Hide contents

Emhyr was going to marry a double and pretend it was the heir of Cintra to solidify his claim. So a Jeyne/Arya situation from A Dance with Dragons. He never planned to marry his actual daughter as he rightfully thought that was perverse.

 

Spoiler

nah, he was going to marry her and have a child with her, and the child would save the world. The double was only because they couldn’t find her. She wasn’t supposed to know he was her father though, so that’s something.

And Pavetta

Spoiler

fell overboard when they were fighting. It was an accident.

 

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1 hour ago, Filippa Eilhart said:
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nah, he was going to marry her and have a child with her, and the child would save the world. The double was only because they couldn’t find her. She wasn’t supposed to know he was her father though, so that’s something.

This. 

Spoiler

In the end he decided not to, though.

 

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